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Mode S transponders

 
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nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Although Mode S is not yet mandatory in the UK it is already making its presence felt in Europe making touring abroad more difficult. As I will be doing an update on my panel this winter I have started looking at the options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack on the Europa and weighs nearly twice as much as the 320. As my panel is optimised for a 6.25” wide avionics stack the only transponder that seems to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31 transponder. Has anyone else looked into this yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?

Regards

Nigel Charles
[quote][b]


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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Hi Nigel,

For me the big attraction would be to be able to display traffic. Do
you happen to know if the Trig TT31 has a data output for traffic that
can me interfaced into Garmin 430's or compatible device ?

I just took a look on line and the Trig TT31 looks like a nice compact unit.

Regards, Paul


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H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:21 pm    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

I have installed a Trig TT31 in the Europa. Works perfect en easy to handle.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Hans
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]Namens nigel charles
Verzonden: vrijdag 22 augustus 2008 20:12
Aan: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: Mode S transponders
Urgentie: Laag
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Although Mode S is not yet mandatory in the UK it is already making its presence felt in Europe making touring abroad more difficult. As I will be doing an update on my panel this winter I have started looking at the options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack on the Europa and weighs nearly twice as much as the 320. As my panel is optimised for a 6.25” wide avionics stack the only transponder that seems to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31 transponder. Has anyone else looked into this yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?

Regards

Nigel Charles [quote]<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]> - The Europa-List Email Forum ---> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List   - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ---> http://forums.matronics.com   - List Contribution Web Site -Thank you for your generous support!     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>[b]


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Rowland_Carson



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

At 2008-08-22 19:11 +0100 nigel charles wrote:

Quote:
As my panel is optimised for a 6.25" wide
avionics stack the only transponder that seems
to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31
transponder. Has anyone else looked into this
yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?

Nigel - my panel is still in a "soft" state so I
don't have your contsraints, but of those I've
looked at under £2k I am leaning towards the
Filser TRT800 which has the advantage of a
built-in alticoder. Both the Becker
BXP6401-2-(01) and the TRIG TT31 need an external
coder which adds to the cost. The Becker is the
shortest at 205mm and the Filser the lightest at
600g - the Trig is 1350g but puts out 240W
compared to only 100W for the Filser.
Incidentally the Garmin GTX328 while too long for
a Europa panel at 286mm also lacks the extended
squitter needed for ADS-B, so it's theoretically
less future-proof than the others. The Filser is
the only one that provides an active/standby
squawk display like the typical comms radio, and
that's about the only useful feature I see
missing from the TRIG. Filser also do a TRT800A
which seems to be much the same unit as the
TRT800, re-packaged 6.25" wide, so you might
consider that one.

As an electronic engineer, the impresssion I have
of the TRIG and the people who developed it is
that it is well designed and should be a solid
performer, but I have no hard facts or direct
experience to back that up.

I attach a PDF of my comparison sheet - at the
time I prepared it I wasn't able to get anything
about the Becker BXP6403 apart from a new-product
annoucement.

regards

Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1080 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>


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christoph.both(at)acadiau
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Hi,
The MicroAir Transponder is very nice and it fits perfectly with the round 2 1/4 inch 760 COM. Nice pair. Each weights about 500 grams and easily fits the Europa stack. That is several pounds saved over some of the square boxes. They use very little power so you can use them in glide mode as well.
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, NS


________________________________

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Rowland Carson
Sent: Fri 8/22/2008 6:42 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Mode S transponders

At 2008-08-22 19:11 +0100 nigel charles wrote:

Quote:
As my panel is optimised for a 6.25" wide
avionics stack the only transponder that seems
to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31
transponder. Has anyone else looked into this
yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?

Nigel - my panel is still in a "soft" state so I
don't have your contsraints, but of those I've
looked at under £2k I am leaning towards the
Filser TRT800 which has the advantage of a
built-in alticoder. Both the Becker
BXP6401-2-(01) and the TRIG TT31 need an external
coder which adds to the cost. The Becker is the
shortest at 205mm and the Filser the lightest at
600g - the Trig is 1350g but puts out 240W
compared to only 100W for the Filser.
Incidentally the Garmin GTX328 while too long for
a Europa panel at 286mm also lacks the extended
squitter needed for ADS-B, so it's theoretically
less future-proof than the others. The Filser is
the only one that provides an active/standby
squawk display like the typical comms radio, and
that's about the only useful feature I see
missing from the TRIG. Filser also do a TRT800A
which seems to be much the same unit as the
TRT800, re-packaged 6.25" wide, so you might
consider that one.

As an electronic engineer, the impresssion I have
of the TRIG and the people who developed it is
that it is well designed and should be a solid
performer, but I have no hard facts or direct
experience to back that up.

I attach a PDF of my comparison sheet - at the
time I prepared it I wasn't able to get anything
about the Becker BXP6403 apart from a new-product
annoucement.

regards

Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1080 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>


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nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:59 pm    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Quote:
For me the big attraction would be to be able to display traffic. Do
you happen to know if the Trig TT31 has a data output for traffic that

can me interfaced into Garmin 430's or compatible device ?<

I have no knowledge on this. Best to contact Trig direct.

Nigel


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Rowland_Carson



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:59 am    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

At 2008-08-23 06:56 +0100 nigel charles wrote:

Quote:


>For me the big attraction would be to be able to display traffic. Do
you happen to know if the Trig TT31 has a data output for traffic that
can me interfaced into Garmin 430's or compatible device ?<

I have no knowledge on this. Best to contact Trig direct.

Nigel - here's a quote from one of Trig's excellently-produced PDFs
(brochure, user manual, installation guide - all available for free
download on their website):

"The TT31 will support Traffic Information Service (TIS) functions,
where available, by interfacing to an appropriate cockpit display.

ADS-B and TIS functions will be made available as a software-only
field upgrade."

Hope this helps.

regards

Rowland
--
| Wilma & Rowland Carson http://home.clara.net/rowil/
| <rowil(at)clara.net> ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...


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air.guerner(at)orange.fr
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Hi Nigel,

I have replaced my GTX320 by a 328. In spite of being deeper, the 328 fits perfectly in the same place as the 320. Same panel cut out, too. However, a 90 degree elbow antenna connector is required. Same panel cut out, too.

Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL


options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice
would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on
the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack on
the Europa
[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Thanks for all the inputs on transponder selection. I was surprised to
hear that it was possible to fit the Garmin 328as it is significantly
longer than a Garmin/Apollo SL40 radio which only just fits. I guess
the extra length must all be in the connector.

Having trawled the net for more info I have come to a similar
conclusion to Rowland. The points which I found to be significant were
as follows:

1. The Garmin 328 is a tight fit and is by far the heaviest and is
more limited in its capabilities
2. The Trig and the Filser are both much lighter with the Filser
including the encoder which saves even more weight and is simpler to
connect up.
3. The Filser is the cheapest of those available that fit in the
normal avionics stack.
4. The Filser offers a flip/flop type code selection like most radios.
5. The Garmin is the only one to offer dedicated number buttons for
entering codes. We use this way of inputting codes in our airliner
transponders and it is by far the easiest.
6. The power output is a little confusing. Most of them offer 250W
output from the set with an estimated 125W at the antenna. Some
manufacturers quote set power and others antenna power.
7. The Becker is significantly more expensive than the rest and seems
to offer no advantages to justify the extra price.

Quote:
From the above, on balance the Filser seems to be the most suitable
for my requirements.

Regards

Nigel Charles

--


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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:12 am    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Apparently not considered in the analysis is the cost of a service if the
encoder drifts out of calibration.
With a separate encoder, it can be cheaper to replace with a new item,
whereas with an embedded encoder it's a costly service with downtime?

My personal preference is for the Filser (with extended squitter and higher
output, for future-proofing), because it is light and compact, and because
it is widely used on the Continent. However there have been recent
additional software problems; still doesn't put me off as the factory is
fixing these.

Duncan Mcf.
---


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]Namens nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Verzonden: zaterdag 23 augustus 2008 23:32
Aan: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Mode S transponders

I just received the Airworthiness Directive AD 2008-0158 \date 21 Aug. according the S transponders Filser Type TRT 600 and TRT 800. Does not look to good. At least do not operate the aircraft in airspace where a transponder is required etc.....
Hans

Europa-List message posted by: "nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk>

Thanks for all the inputs on transponder selection. I was surprised to
hear that it was possible to fit the Garmin 328as it is significantly
longer than a Garmin/Apollo SL40 radio which only just fits. I guess
the extra length must all be in the connector.

Having trawled the net for more info I have come to a similar
conclusion to Rowland. The points which I found to be significant were
as follows:

1. The Garmin 328 is a tight fit and is by far the heaviest and is
more limited in its capabilities
2. The Trig and the Filser are both much lighter with the Filser
including the encoder which saves even more weight and is simpler to
connect up.
3. The Filser is the cheapest of those available that fit in the
normal avionics stack.
4. The Filser offers a flip/flop type code selection like most radios.
5. The Garmin is the only one to offer dedicated number buttons for
entering codes. We use this way of inputting codes in our airliner
transponders and it is by far the easiest.
6. The power output is a little confusing. Most of them offer 250W
output from the set with an estimated 125W at the antenna. Some
manufacturers quote set power and others antenna power.
7. The Becker is significantly more expensive than the rest and seems
to offer no advantages to justify the extra price.

Quote:
From the above, on balance the Filser seems to be the most suitable
for my requirements.

Regards

Nigel Charles

--


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nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:00 am    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Hi Hans

I am looking at purchasing the Filser transponder. Please can you
explain further or give me a link for the information.

Regards

Nigel Charles

--


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frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:51 am    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

nigel charles wrote:

Quote:
Hi Hans

I am looking at purchasing the Filser transponder. Please can you
explain further or give me a link for the information.

I received this AD as well for my Filser equipped Cessna, and it just
means that I'm grounded as transponders are mandatory here (unless you
stay in class G, below 1200ft.)

According to the maintenance guys they have had endless problems with
these transponders. Mine also fails some test (sideband suppression).
After repair/upgrade by Filser these transponders often turn out worse
than they were before the fix. For this reason the avionics company is
going to return all transponders still within the warranty period and
replace them by something else.

I planned to put a Filser in my Europa as well, but I now changed my
mind. Take a look at this one:
http://www.mode-sierra.com/pdf-files/productomschrijving%20VT-01.pdf

Only 750 grams, and the nice part is that you can split the unit into a
small control unit and the main unit. The control unit goes into the
instrument panel, and the main unit in the tail. For the 914/cs-prop
people this gives a better weight distribution, and, more importantly,
this means that you can connect the antenna directly to the unit. No
more heavy cables, cable losses, etc.

For the rest it has about the same features as the Filser, and the price
is also about the same.

Frans


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nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Hi Frans

Thanks for the info. As I require a rack mounted unit I will have a look
at the VT-02 version of the Mode Sierra transponder.

Regards

Nigel

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Are these transponders legal in the U.S.?

Gary Leinberger
A237

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject: Mode S transponders Reply with quote

Gary Leinberger wrote:
Quote:


Are these transponders legal in the U.S.

I don't know, but here in the Netherlands mode S is mandatory. BTW, If
anyone is interested in my old King mode C transponder just let me know.

Frans


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