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Mode S transponders

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nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: Mode S transponders

Although Mode S is not yet mandatory in the UK it is already making its presence felt in Europe making touring abroad more difficult. As I will be doing an update on my panel this winter I have started looking at the options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack on the Europa and weighs nearly twice as much as the 320. As my panel is optimised for a 6.25” wide avionics stack the only transponder that seems to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31 transponder. Has anyone else looked into this yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?  

   

Regards  

   

Nigel Charles  

       [quote][b]

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: Mode S transponders

Hi Nigel,



For me the big attraction would be to be able to display traffic.  Do

you happen to know if the Trig TT31 has a data output for traffic that

can me interfaced into Garmin 430's or compatible device ?



I just took a look on line and the Trig TT31 looks like a nice compact unit.



Regards,  Paul

H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: Mode S transponders

I have installed a Trig TT31 in the Europa. Works perfect en easy to handle.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Hans  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

 Van: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]Namens nigel charles

 Verzonden: vrijdag 22 augustus 2008 20:12

 Aan: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Onderwerp: Mode S transponders

 Urgentie: Laag  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Although Mode S is not yet mandatory in the UK it is already making its presence felt in Europe making touring abroad more difficult. As I will be doing an update on my panel this winter I have started looking at the options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack on the Europa and weighs nearly twice as much as the 320. As my panel is optimised for a 6.25” wide avionics stack the only transponder that seems to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31 transponder. Has anyone else looked into this yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?  

   

Regards  

   

Nigel Charles  [quote]<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>          - The Europa-List Email Forum ---> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ---> http://forums.matronics.com             - List Contribution Web Site -Thank you for your generous support!                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>[b]

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: Mode S transponders

At 2008-08-22 19:11 +0100 nigel charles wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  As my panel is optimised for a 6.25" wide 

avionics stack the only transponder that seems 

to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31 

transponder. Has anyone else looked into this 

yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?


	


Nigel - my panel is still in a "soft" state so I 

don't have your contsraints, but of those I've 

looked at under £2k I am leaning towards the 

Filser TRT800 which has the advantage of a 

built-in alticoder. Both the Becker 

BXP6401-2-(01) and the TRIG TT31 need an external 

coder which adds to the cost. The Becker is the 

shortest at 205mm and the Filser the lightest at 

600g - the Trig is 1350g but puts out 240W 

compared to only 100W for the Filser. 

Incidentally the Garmin GTX328 while too long for 

a Europa panel at 286mm also lacks the extended 

squitter needed for ADS-B, so it's theoretically 

less future-proof than the others. The Filser is 

the only one that provides an active/standby 

squawk display like the typical comms radio, and 

that's about the only useful feature I see 

missing from the TRIG. Filser also do a TRT800A 

which seems to be much the same unit as the 

TRT800, re-packaged 6.25" wide, so you might 

consider that one.



As an electronic engineer, the impresssion I have 

of the TRIG and the people who developed it is 

that it is well designed and should be a solid 

performer, but I have no hard facts or direct 

experience to back that up.



I attach a PDF of my comparison sheet - at the 

time I prepared it I wasn't able to get anything 

about the Becker BXP6403 apart from a new-product 

annoucement.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1080 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

xponders.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

xponders.pdf

Filesize:

20.05 KB

Downloaded:

185 Time(s)

christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Mode S transponders

Hi,

The MicroAir Transponder is very nice and it fits perfectly with the round  2 1/4 inch 760 COM. Nice pair. Each weights about 500 grams and easily fits the Europa stack. That is several pounds saved over some of the square boxes. They use very little power so you can use them in glide mode as well.

Christoph Both

#223

Wolfville, NS

 



________________________________



From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Rowland Carson

Sent: Fri 8/22/2008 6:42 PM

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Mode S transponders



At 2008-08-22 19:11 +0100 nigel charles wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  As my panel is optimised for a 6.25" wide

avionics stack the only transponder that seems

to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31

transponder. Has anyone else looked into this

yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?


	


Nigel - my panel is still in a "soft" state so I

don't have your contsraints, but of those I've

looked at under £2k I am leaning towards the

Filser TRT800 which has the advantage of a

built-in alticoder. Both the Becker

BXP6401-2-(01) and the TRIG TT31 need an external

coder which adds to the cost. The Becker is the

shortest at 205mm and the Filser the lightest at

600g - the Trig is 1350g but puts out 240W

compared to only 100W for the Filser.

Incidentally the Garmin GTX328 while too long for

a Europa panel at 286mm also lacks the extended

squitter needed for ADS-B, so it's theoretically

less future-proof than the others. The Filser is

the only one that provides an active/standby

squawk display like the typical comms radio, and

that's about the only useful feature I see

missing from the TRIG. Filser also do a TRT800A

which seems to be much the same unit as the

TRT800, re-packaged 6.25" wide, so you might

consider that one.



As an electronic engineer, the impresssion I have

of the TRIG and the people who developed it is

that it is well designed and should be a solid

performer, but I have no hard facts or direct

experience to back that up.



I attach a PDF of my comparison sheet - at the

time I prepared it I wasn't able to get anything

about the Becker BXP6403 apart from a new-product

annoucement.



regards



Rowland

--

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1080 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: Mode S transponders

 	  Quote: 	
		  For me the big attraction would be to be able to display traffic.  Do

you happen to know if the Trig TT31 has a data output for traffic that
	


can me interfaced into Garmin 430's or compatible device ?<



I have no knowledge on this. Best to contact Trig direct.



Nigel

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:59 am Post subject: Mode S transponders

At 2008-08-23 06:56 +0100 nigel charles wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



>For me the big attraction would be to be able to display traffic.  Do

you happen to know if the Trig TT31 has a data output for traffic that

can me interfaced into Garmin 430's or compatible device ?<



I have no knowledge on this. Best to contact Trig direct.


	


Nigel - here's a quote from one of Trig's excellently-produced PDFs 

(brochure, user manual, installation guide - all available for free 

download on their website):



"The TT31 will support Traffic Information Service (TIS) functions, 

where available, by interfacing to an appropriate cockpit display.



ADS-B and TIS functions will be made available as a software-only 

field upgrade."



Hope this helps.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Wilma & Rowland Carson    http://home.clara.net/rowil/

| <rowil(at)clara.net>          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

air.guerner(at)orange.fr
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: Mode S transponders

Hi Nigel,

  

 I have replaced my GTX320 by a 328. In spite of being deeper,  the 328 fits perfectly in the same place as the 320. Same panel cut out, too.  However, a 90 degree elbow antenna connector is required. Same panel cut out,  too. 

  

 Regards

 Remi Guerner

 F-PGKL

 



options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical  choice

would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked  on

the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack  on

the Europa 

    [quote][b]

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: Mode S transponders

Thanks for all the inputs on transponder selection. I was surprised to 

hear that it was possible to fit the Garmin 328as it is significantly 

longer than a Garmin/Apollo SL40 radio which only just fits. I guess 

the extra length must all be in the connector.



Having trawled the net for more info I have come to a similar 

conclusion to Rowland. The points which I found to be significant were 

as follows:



1.	The Garmin 328 is a tight fit and is by far the heaviest and is 

more limited in its capabilities

2.	The Trig and the Filser are both much lighter with the Filser 

including the encoder which saves even more weight and is simpler to 

connect up.

3.	The Filser is the cheapest of those available that fit in the 

normal avionics stack.

4.	The Filser offers a flip/flop type code selection like most radios.

5.	The Garmin is the only one to offer dedicated number buttons for 

entering codes. We use this way of inputting codes in our airliner 

transponders and it is by far the easiest.

6.	The power output is a little confusing. Most of them offer 250W 

output from the set with an estimated 125W at the antenna. Some 

manufacturers quote set power and others antenna power.

7.	The Becker is significantly more expensive than the rest and seems 

to offer no advantages to justify the extra price.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From the above, on balance the Filser seems to be the most suitable 

for my requirements. 
	


Regards



Nigel Charles



--

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: Mode S transponders

Apparently not considered in the analysis is the cost of a service if the 

encoder drifts out of calibration.

With a separate encoder, it can be cheaper to replace with a new item, 

whereas with an embedded encoder it's a costly service with downtime?



My personal preference is for the Filser (with extended squitter and higher 

output, for future-proofing), because it is light and compact, and because 

it is widely used on the Continent. However there have been recent 

additional software problems; still doesn't put me off as the factory is 

fixing these.



Duncan Mcf.

---

H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: Mode S transponders

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

Van: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]Namens nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk

Verzonden: zaterdag 23 augustus 2008 23:32

Aan: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Onderwerp: RE: Mode S transponders



I just received the Airworthiness Directive  AD 2008-0158  \date 21 Aug. according the S transponders Filser Type TRT 600 and TRT 800. Does not look to good. At least do not operate the aircraft in airspace where a transponder is required etc.....

Hans



 Europa-List message posted by: "nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk>



Thanks for all the inputs on transponder selection. I was surprised to

hear that it was possible to fit the Garmin 328as it is significantly

longer than a Garmin/Apollo SL40 radio which only just fits. I guess

the extra length must all be in the connector.



Having trawled the net for more info I have come to a similar

conclusion to Rowland. The points which I found to be significant were

as follows:



1.      The Garmin 328 is a tight fit and is by far the heaviest and is

more limited in its capabilities

2.      The Trig and the Filser are both much lighter with the Filser

including the encoder which saves even more weight and is simpler to

connect up.

3.      The Filser is the cheapest of those available that fit in the

normal avionics stack.

4.      The Filser offers a flip/flop type code selection like most radios.

5.      The Garmin is the only one to offer dedicated number buttons for

entering codes. We use this way of inputting codes in our airliner

transponders and it is by far the easiest.

6.      The power output is a little confusing. Most of them offer 250W

output from the set with an estimated 125W at the antenna. Some

manufacturers quote set power and others antenna power.

7.      The Becker is significantly more expensive than the rest and seems

to offer no advantages to justify the extra price.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From the above, on balance the Filser seems to be the most suitable

for my requirements.
	


Regards



Nigel Charles



--

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: Mode S transponders

Hi Hans



I am looking at purchasing the Filser transponder. Please can you

explain further or give me a link for the information.



Regards



Nigel Charles



--

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: Mode S transponders

nigel charles wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Hans

 

 I am looking at purchasing the Filser transponder. Please can you

 explain further or give me a link for the information.


	


I received this AD as well for my Filser equipped Cessna, and it just

means that I'm grounded as transponders are mandatory here (unless you

stay in class G, below 1200ft.)



According to the maintenance guys they have had endless problems with

these transponders. Mine also fails some test (sideband suppression).

After repair/upgrade by Filser these transponders often turn out worse

than they were before the fix. For this reason the avionics company is

going to return all transponders still within the warranty period and

replace them by something else.



I planned to put a Filser in my Europa as well, but I now changed my

mind. Take a look at this one:

http://www.mode-sierra.com/pdf-files/productomschrijving%20VT-01.pdf



Only 750 grams, and the nice part is that you can split the unit into a

small control unit and the main unit. The control unit goes into the

instrument panel, and the main unit in the tail. For the 914/cs-prop

people this gives a better weight distribution, and, more importantly,

this means that you can connect the antenna directly to the unit. No

more heavy cables, cable losses, etc.



For the rest it has about the same features as the Filser, and the price

is also about the same.



Frans

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: Mode S transponders

Hi Frans



Thanks for the info. As I require a rack mounted unit I will have a look

at the VT-02 version of the Mode Sierra transponder.



Regards



Nigel



--

Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: Mode S transponders

Are these transponders legal in the U.S.?



Gary Leinberger

A237 



--

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: Mode S transponders

Gary Leinberger wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Are these transponders legal in the U.S.


	


I don't know, but here in the Netherlands mode S is mandatory. BTW, If

anyone is interested in my old King mode C transponder just let me know.



Frans

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