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Eggenfellner
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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Kelly

Exactly what you are discussing has started to be experimented with on

the Eggenfellner package. They have a wide band O2 sensor that they are

using to change fuel pressure settings to get the best performance to

fuel burn. You are correct that it can vary widely with very little

performance gain, but it is in the works, giving the pilot the ability

to control closed loop versus open loop on the stock ECM. But Jan has

now contracted to get a custom built ECM for the package that will take

advantage of the fuel mappings that are being tested. So the best power

to fuel burn will be able to be set and modified as needed. Much like

GAMI, but without the need to change injectors, instead the timing

pulses on the EFI will be modified.

Robert Paisley can talk more about this, as he is the one doing the

testing and development on it.

Dan  



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Just to stir the discussion and make it boil over.....Do not spend the

extra money to get Sirius built in the portables are cheaper, and XM is

better anyway. Most of us will be using a portable Garmin and can get

the XM included in the plan, and use the aux Jack to get the music over

to the intercom.



Hey, we have not had a primer war in awhile, so lets start an XM versus

Siruis discussion...

Dan 



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

No you are right, getting in a crew car and driving down to the auto

parts store, that in major cities are open 24x7, buying the parts and

fixing the engine yourself would be just too easy right? Most FBO's do

not stock the parts you are likely to need in the event of a major

failure, but most auto parts stores have just about every part you need

to fix a Subaru engine.

Just stirring the pot some more...

Dan 



--

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

We have not had a primer war in a while?  I think this engine thing is

bigger than primer ever was.  I think we should start calling the primer

discussion an Engine War.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

W: 352-465-4545

C: 352-427-0285



--

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

> 

>

> You see, it's this exact type of inquiry that completely confuses

> me.  If someone is looking at it where safety is their #1 concern,

> then the engine choice is much much more obvious than the guy

> who wants to experiment.  The "old" engines, when run properly,

> with well built planes, have an extremely, EXTREMELY reliable

> track record.


	


    The interesting thing is that one of the reasons I am considering a

Subaru is that safety is one of my major concerns.  I keep reading on

various mailing lists about the "reliability" of Lycoming and related

engines, but nearly every time I stop by my local FBO maintenance shop

there is one there having some sort of top end work done on it.  I've

personally had to have cylinders replaced on a Continental O200, and

valves worked on a Lyc O320, and I don't have all that much flying

time.  Somewhere there is a disconnect between the perceived

"reliability" of Lycomings and what I have seen personally in the Real

World.  Granted, my data set is small, but I cannot imagine that my shop

is the only one in the world that is getting all the "unreliable"

Lycoming engines to work on.



    We don't yet have tons of air time on the Subaru packages, but what

time we do have tends towards showing that the Subaru is a very reliable

airplane package.  There are hundreds of thousands (maybe millions?) of

hours of Subaru engines in automobiles, SUVs, and racing applications,

and to me at least (my opinion) the core engine is not in question in

the slightest - it is tough, reliable, and extremely well designed.



    The only question I have left is whether the PSRU (gear reduction

unit) will be as reliable as the engine, but so far from the hours

already flown, the Egg PSRU seems to be a very good and reliable

performer.  Time will tell if this continues to hold true.



-Dj

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Daniel,



You are like the last pillar standing and I am at the foundation helping to 

hold you up.  Interestingly enough, the others don't know it, but you are 

doing it for everyone(Let us remember that). I hope it works out for you, I 

am right behind you.



Call me cheap, but the most expensive vehicle I own, aside from my glider is 

my F-250 four door diesel purchased in 2001 at $36K. That comes with an 

engine, body, upholstery, the works. More importantly I drove it home the 

day I bought it.



These aircraft engines, way over $40K brand new, without the special 

ignition, (I think)without alternator, without Gami. This is nuts IMO! I 

just can't get over it. I really like spending money on fine items like 

handcrafted all molded RC gliders, things that are high quality, fine 

tolerances, last forever type stuff, so I don't think it is called cheap, 

just some kind of hurdle I can't seem to clear.



I think Eggenfellners are too expensive also, but when you look at the 

amount of work he has done putting everything together, he deserves to make 

a living too.



John G.



Absolutely no DIG to anyone, my own issue, verbalized.



Do NOt Archive

[quote]From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Eggenfellner

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:25:07 -0500






No you are right, getting in a crew car and driving down to the auto

parts store, that in major cities are open 24x7, buying the parts and

fixing the engine yourself would be just too easy right? Most FBO's do

not stock the parts you are likely to need in the event of a major

failure, but most auto parts stores have just about every part you need

to fix a Subaru engine.

Just stirring the pot some more...

Dan



--

Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Yeah, since I've got a Lycoming O-540 sitting in a crate in my basement,

if an email comes with the title "RV10 List: Eggenfellner", I just hit

"Delete"



Jack Phillips

#40610

Elevators

--

mike(at)learningplanet.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:05 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

I have to say that this was one of the most civil and grown up "wars" that I've ever seen on the lists. I commend those of you who provided your opinions without resorting to the typical flame tactics. It was a very informative discussion.

Regards,

Mike Schipper

RV-10 #40576 - Wings

http://www.rvten.com

On Dec 5, 2006, at 9:48 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:

[quote]

We have not had a primer war in a while?  I think this engine thing is 

bigger than primer ever was.  I think we should start calling the primer 

discussion an Engine War. 



 

Do not archive. [b]

Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

DJ:



The main reason that most engines need top end work done is from getting

the engine too hot and glazing the cylinders, not really from a design

or manufacturing defect.  Another common problem is corrosion of the

cam/tappets due to lack of flight time.  The best way to keep your

engine in tip-top shape and eliminate those problems is to fly the heck

out of it, avoid long run-ups on the ground and change the oil.    



Rhonda

--

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Aw c'mon .... you can't be Sirius!!!  Oh, that is what you said!!!   

 Linn

 do not archive

 Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:

 [quote]   [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> (LloydDR(at)wernerco.com)  Just to stir the discussion and make it boil over.....Do not spend the extra money to get Sirius built in the portables are cheaper, and XM is better anyway. Most of us will be using a portable Garmin and can get the XM included in the plan, and use the aux Jack to get the music over to the intercom.  Hey, we have not had a primer war in awhile, so lets start an XM versus Siruis discussion... Dan   --

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Rhonda Bewley wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 DJ:



 The main reason that most engines need top end work done is from getting

 the engine too hot and glazing the cylinders, not really from a design

 or manufacturing defect.  Another common problem is corrosion of the

 cam/tappets due to lack of flight time.  The best way to keep your

 engine in tip-top shape and eliminate those problems is to fly the heck

 out of it, avoid long run-ups on the ground and change the oil.    



 Rhonda

   


	


Hi Rhonda,

    No real argument as to why the problems happen, I just find it

interesting (and somewhat amusing) that one of the strong arguments that

people use for choosing a Lycoming is the claimed "reliability", but yet

there are all these problems that seem to be occuring which indicates to

a neophyte like myself that they really aren't all that reliable after

all. 



    If the Subaru engine is treated the same way as the Lyc, I'm not

convinced that we will see any more problems with it than the Lyc has,

but that is just my own opinion with no actual data to back it up.  The

more brave souls that gather the Subaru data for us, the better to make

my decision down the road...  



-Dj

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:30 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Rhonda Bewley wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		      	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rhonda Bewley" <Rhonda(at)BPAENGINES.com> (Rhonda(at)BPAENGINES.com)



DJ:



The main reason that most engines need top end work done is from getting

the engine too hot and glazing the cylinders, not really from a design

or manufacturing defect. 	
 	
 I don't think that's entirely true.  I think most of the wear is due to rusting of the cylinders because the A/C wasn't being flown often enough nor hard enough.

  	  Quote: 	
		      	  Quote: 	
		    Another common problem is corrosion of the cam/tappets due to lack of flight time. 	
 	
 This is true!  Directly related to the comment above!

  	  Quote: 	
		      	  Quote: 	
		    The best way to keep your

engine in tip-top shape and eliminate those problems is to fly the heck

out of it, avoid long run-ups on the ground and change the oil. 	
 	
 Amen! This is the best advice I've seen on this thread!!!

 Linn

 do not archive

 [quote]   [quote]     Rhonda --

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:35 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

It is called "evolution" of the enlightened individual.

Some day our goverments might learn to do the same. We need to send the old 

guys who make policy to fight the wars. "I looked deep into his eyes, but 

them he hit me"

Sorry, I couldn't resist. It stil lis a very complex world. No denying that.

Do Not Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Michael Schipper <mike(at)learningplanet.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Eggenfellner

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:04:19 -0600

I have to say that this was one of the most civil and grown up "wars"  that 

I've ever seen on the lists. I commend those of you who provided  your 

opinions without resorting to the typical flame tactics. It was  a very 

informative discussion.

Regards,

Mike Schipper

RV-10 #40576 - Wings

http://www.rvten.com

On Dec 5, 2006, at 9:48 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:

>We have not had a primer war in a while?  I think this engine thing is

>bigger than primer ever was.  I think we should start calling the  primer

>discussion an Engine War.

>

>Do not archive.

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Would it not be safe to say that if you drive by a Subaru dealership (or any

repair shop, for that matter) that they won't have most of their bays filled

with cars getting some kind of work done on them.  In my experience they

seem to be fairly full.  Does that mean that car's aren't reliable?  I think

that means that engines eventually need to be fixed.  Some new ones have

problems, more old ones have problems.  Check out an early 80's

just-about-anything and it probably has been in the shop a number of times.

The engine is N256H has been to right around 4,000 hours before major TWICE

before we got it.  New cylinders, new cam and a few new gears and we now

have 300 trouble-free hours on it.  As Rhonda pointed out, the first two

times they ran the snot out of it on a flight school Aztec.  Now we are sort

of running the snot out of it with 300hrs in less than a year and a half.



This is all not a dog on the Subie, of course, just seeing a few holes in

the logic.  Because shops have work to do doesn't mean that they only work

on junk.  Just the fact that 50-year-old engines are still flying means that

they are NOT junk IMHO (ie. How many Yugo's do you see driving around

still?).



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

W: 352-465-4545

C: 352-427-0285



--

bhughes(at)qnsi.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Linn,



Tracy (Rotary Aviation) is now making a EFI controller for the Lyc. If

it is like the ones for the rotary it can be manually leaned and is a

dual unit. 



Bobby

40116 

(Rotary with custom everything)

 http://www.rotaryaviation.com/eficont.html



--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Keep in mind that there are vastly more Lycomings out there that are

fairly old compared to new or reman'd so it's not unexpected to have

experiences like this.  Stop by your local Subie dealer and I bet you

find Subie engines being worked on without a single Lycoming in site.





  I honestly don't expect you would find a huge spread in reliability

statistics when you compare "new" Subie packages to "new" Lycoming

packages.  As far as the crank issues everyone loves to point to

recently, this is not a design flaw.  10's of thousands of cranks are

out there without these problems.  Some bean counter probably pushed

someone to save some $$ and they made a bad decision to change the

metallurgical recipe of the cranks.  Bad decision not related to the

overall design.  I personally think it sucks and Lycoming should stop

passing the costs to their customers, but we have no leverage without

alternative engine options whether its from Egg, Eci, Mistral, or

whoever. But let's get one thing straight, the automotive industry is

far from exempt when it comes to making bad decisions to save $$.  As a

matter of fact, I think they lead the way in that dept also.



Michael



--

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Be forewarned, this is in a HUMOROUS tone....



I guess by that rationality, the Subies have an extrordinary safety

record in flight in the RV-10 installations.  I've never once

heard of someone having an off-airport landing in their Subie

powered RV-10 before.



"all these problems" just seems so strange to hear.  When you count

how many engines are out there, "all these" seems to be similar

to saying "tons of U.S. Airline passenger deaths in the past 2 years"...

just another sensationalist term.  As a percentage of engines

out there, it's actually amazing that if you eliminate pilot error,

esp. due to fuel mismanagement, that you're left with an incredibly

small pool of accidents to analyze.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Dj Merrill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Rhonda,

     No real argument as to why the problems happen, I just find it

 interesting (and somewhat amusing) that one of the strong arguments that

 people use for choosing a Lycoming is the claimed "reliability", but yet

 there are all these problems that seem to be occuring which indicates to

 a neophyte like myself that they really aren't all that reliable after

 all. 

 

     If the Subaru engine is treated the same way as the Lyc, I'm not

 convinced that we will see any more problems with it than the Lyc has,

 but that is just my own opinion with no actual data to back it up.  The

 more brave souls that gather the Subaru data for us, the better to make

 my decision down the road...  

 

 -Dj

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

I can see the headlines now....



RV-10 Matronics list members charged today in an incident where they severely beat to death an already dead horse......  



I'll bet this topic would not have gone on so long if you had to type "Eggenfellner" each time you replyed!!



How bout them Broncos!!!!



Rick S.

40185



do not archive



PS-Barrett's XIO-540 due to arrive around the first of March

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

wcurtis(at)core.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

[quote]Yeah, since I've got a Lycoming O-540 sitting in a crate >in my basement, if an email comes with the title "RV10 > List: Eggenfellner", I just hit "Delete"  I'm in the same boat and tempted to do the same but I've found this discussion interesting and not a total waste of bandwidth.  While I've made my choice, I see the need and rationale for others going the Eggenfellner route.  Because if we are to condemn them for following that path then it should follow that those that fly certified ships should also condemn us for the "experimentals" that we fly.  That's the nice thing about this endeavour, you can experiment and innovate as much or as little as you are comfortable with.  Where would we be if the Wrights had listened to the conventional wisdom of the day when the most esteemed physicist espoused that "heavier than air flight was an impossibility?"  I too wish a more modern, less expensive alternative power plant was available.  I just paid the equivalent of what I paid for a brand new 2002 MB ML-320 for an TMX IO-540 with one electronic ignition.  Without discussions such as this we are doomed to this obscene economic model and there will NEVER be a viable alternative power-plant if we deter those who choose to explore the possibilities in this area. William Curtis http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/  [quote][b]

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Why would I have any interest in a do-it-yourself ECU? What I

described is how car manufacturer/EPA approved ECUs work. Building a

plane isn't enough? You want to design code to run the engine most

efficiently for all regimes? Do you have any idea the staff and

resources car companies put into ECU development? Do you think it

really is as easy as MegaSquirt ads claim? Designing one for racing is

a lot simpler..just maximize power output at desired rpm and you are

done. So far, only TCM has a certified FADEC, and quite frankly I

wouldn't want to fly with it. I can operate the engine more

efficiently with manual controls than it will in FADEC mode, because I

can go fast ROP, or go economy LOP and keep the temps where I want

them. If you don't use closed loop O2 feedback, your only other option

for mixture control is EGT, which has much greater lag in response

time, by comparison. Unless you will be certain of always being able

to get unleaded mogas at airports you land at, your O2 sensor will die

on the first load of 100LL. Why would you want electronic injectors

that can fail both electrically or by the usual dirt/varnish plugging?

GAMIs may or may not be needed depending on your luck with Lyc. QC. My

Lyc runs fine with stock injectors LOP. Others won't.

Spark control you can already get the equivalent of automotive in

either the experimental category or the Unison Lasar certified system.

So far the improvements don't appear to be worth the money.

The Lycs and Continentals are extremely reliable when operated

frequently, according to manual...since you asked for an A&P

opinion...I'm only A&P/IA. Or ask the major engine shops what kind of

failure rate they see, what their warranty rate is. If they had the

kind of record you allege, they would be spending huge amounts on

warranty claims and wouldn't stay in business long.

Oh, wait, Rhonda already gave her opinion, which I agree with

entirely. I've owned an aircraft for 31 years. I've done two

overhauls, zero cylinder work, zero top overhauls, in climate from

Alaska to Arizona. Monitor your temps, keep temps conservative and fly

frequently.

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