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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net Guest
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Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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This thread reminds me of the wiring discussions when I was on the Lancair
list. The recommendation there - from an aerospace electrical engineer was
one of the $500 wire strippers that used heat rather than a blade to cut the
insulation. Anything short of that would render all wiring projects doomed
to failure.
I wonder if the prop really knows, or cares for that matter if the torque
wrench is calibrated. Torque wrenches are good, but probably mostly to make
sure the bolts are not torqued too tight which is a major tendency and was
definitely the tendency of the Lancair owner and my boss during that
project. I watched him twist off the head of a 3/8" lag screw when he was
building the wooden fixtures to support the fuselage. I wondered what he
would do to a 3/16" AN bolt. Until I took over my torque wrenches, to him
tight meant red face and bulging muscles regardless of bolt size.
Lowell
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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To an extent I can see all the points of view. Even the best blade cutters
can, if you get sloppy, nick strands. The heat strippers cannot. This
doesn't mean that it's the only tool for the job.
I suspect when it comes to applications like props the torque is more
critical as the bolts must be tight enough to stop any possible slipping
without stressing the bolt. I've worked with guys who could while using
their own box end wrenches come as close as Dimmit is to D###it to
conventional torque values. However being one of those ham fisted Esso bees
who can strip a nut faster than you can say Jack Robinson I much prefer to
use my torque wrench and let it click once.
Some props are no doubt more susceptible to damage from bad torque than
others. Wood and composite can have the fibres or the prop crushed by over
torque and be destroyed by the over tightening. Both GSC and IVO give
specific torques for the installation of their props. Being one who has
seen a composite prop destroyed by over torquing years ago I like to have
the torque as close to spec as possible. With those props too tight and the
prop is toast, too loose and it slips around until it's toast. The
manufacturers know where the sweet spot is and that's what they spec.
Getting back to Lynn's Sensenich prop. I expect the test that Sensenich
wants done is a periodic test to make sure the minimum original torque is
still there. Therefore he only needs to set his wrench to the original
torque value and let it click once. If because of expansion of the wood
fibres the torque is a little high that would do less damage than loosening
and retorquing.
Sorry guys I must be old school or something... but I think this is a place
where lockwiring or safetying should be used. There are all kinds of power
pulses and vibrations at that location and having a bolt loosening there has
catastrophic possibilities. It isn't a great task to leant to lockwire well
and cutting the wire to test the torque isn't a big deal either. But as
I've said before I do as I'm told (by the prop manufacturers) but I really
don't like it. Lock wire not only stops bolts form backing out but it looks
good and reminds you of some of the things that can go wrong.
This is why I find comments like you own and Jims constructive not
destructive and welcome them.
Noel
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Kitfox III-A
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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I looked at my bending bar torque wrench today, and it is a 150 ft-lb
capacity, with marks in 5 lb increments...hardly the fine touch
needed to get a 10-13 ft-lb reading. My inch-lb breakaway wrench goes
up to 260 in-lb, which is why I like it for a 130-160 in-lb
measurement, but you can't read exactly what the "found" torque is,
unless you just keep turning up the numbers until it starts to turn
the fastener before breaking over....at least I haven't figured out a
way.
And just for the record...and to make all the engineers happy....I
looked at the instructions for two of my torque wrenches, and they
refer to ft-lbs, or in-lbs, unlike the *correct* (engineer driven,
maybe) phrasing of lb-ft. or lb-in. One instruction sheet says, in
passing, (ft-lb or lb-ft), so they seem to think the average Joe
Mechanic talks in ft-lbs before lb-ft. I know this is gonna raise
hell with the perfectionist (which I pretend to be on good days), but
in this case, I tend to go with what I've learned and heard at
garages and hangars for years....doesn't make it right, just makes it
easier to talk about. Why change 100 years of stupidity just to talk
properly, eh? : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 19, 2009, at 3:27 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
Quote: | Jim:
Like I said math wasn’t my forte. Apparently it still isn’t. I
should have noticed that. I guess the reason I didn’t is generally
on small planes the props are usually torque in lb.in.. not lb.ft..
Noel
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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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I haven't called Sensenich yet, but I just went to their website and
downloaded their "Wood propellers: Installation,operation &
Maintemance"...my copy that came with prop is at the hangar. I edited
out the stuff not pertaining to my prop bolt size just to reduce the
stuff to wade through, and here is what I found:
************************
IMPORTANT! Improper torque values will be
obtained by measuring the breaking torque in
a loosening direction. The torque should be
checked in a tightening direction and adjusted
as needed.
TABLE 2.
BOLT TORQUE CHECK VALUES / ACTIONS
Bolt Size
AN5 5/16" bolts:
Between 87-130 (in-lbs) Adjust torque, see Table 1.
Between 130-160 (in-lbs) No further action required
AN5
5/16”
bolts
Above 160 (in-lbs) Loosen Bolts, re-torque see Table 1
**********************
Table 1 says to torque to 130-160 in-lbs, 11-13 ft-lbs, etc for fig
newton-meters, so they are saying to *loosen and re-torque if it's
too high*. Maybe give those fibers a chance at mellowing out and
reforming themselves if the damage has not already been done.
Regarding lockwire on *my* Jabiru installation, nylock nuts were
provided from Jabiru, so I used them. Maybe they know that the Jab
requires more frequent checks than the normal engine, so they went
that route, or maybe it was Sensenich's call, I couldn't say. Maybe
I'd still better make that phone call.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 19, 2009, at 10:04 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
Quote: |
Getting back to Lynn's Sensenich prop. I expect the test that
Sensenich
wants done is a periodic test to make sure the minimum original
torque is
still there. Therefore he only needs to set his wrench to the
original
torque value and let it click once. If because of expansion of
the wood
fibres the torque is a little high that would do less damage than
loosening
and retorquing.
Noel
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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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I think what they are getting at there is you cannot check the torque on a
bolt or nut while trying to remove it. If you think the bolt may be too
tight you must first loosen the bolt then re-torque it to spec.
It is recommended never to use a torque wrench to remove a nut or bolt only
to tighten. They work both directions to tighten left hand threaded bolts.
Ivo told me not to drill and use lockwire because people were afraid to cut
the wire and the recommended torque tests were not being done on bolts that
had been lockwired.
Two days of snow on and off have just ended... I'm out to plough the drive
again.
Noel
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:06 am Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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Really not too important to use in-lb or lb-in, but what's really
important is to remember which way the tower told you to turn...."did
he say, left then right, or the other way around"
Speaking of torque wrenches, when I first learned what one was, and
just happened to "name drop" that subject to a couple of old flathead
hot rod mechanics, they said, "oh, you mean a tension adjusting
wrench." So one-upmanship isn't just for hangar rats. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 20, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
Quote: |
I was corrected on using in.lb. here a couple of years ago. Thjere
are a
few perfectionists around but darned if I know which is perfectly
right.
Important part is to use the wrench for more than a filler for the
tool
case.
Yours in perfection
Noel
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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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Actually, they say if the torque IS (my emphasis) above 160 (in my
example) to loosen and re-torque. So I gather from this it is not a
case of "If you think the bolt may be to tight", but a case of
actually being *measured* to be too tight. This may be a case of
semantics on my part, but......
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 20, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
Quote: |
I think what they are getting at there is you cannot check the
torque on a
bolt or nut while trying to remove it. If you think the bolt may
be too
tight you must first loosen the bolt then re-torque it to spec.
It is recommended never to use a torque wrench to remove a nut or
bolt only
to tighten. They work both directions to tighten left hand
threaded bolts.
Ivo told me not to drill and use lockwire because people were
afraid to cut
the wire and the recommended torque tests were not being done on
bolts that
had been lockwired.
Two days of snow on and off have just ended... I'm out to plough
the drive
again.
Noel
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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jcrowder(at)lpbroadband.n Guest
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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Lynn,
How do you know if it is too high without loosening first?
Jim Crowder
[quote] --
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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Well, reading between the lines of their torque-checking method, ie:
***************
IMPORTANT! Improper torque values will be obtained by measuring the
breaking torque in a loosening direction. The torque should be
checked in a tightening direction and adjusted as needed.
****************
I take this to mean set wrench to 160 for example, turn wrench in
tightening direction, and if it breaks over at the 160, it's probably
too tight, or right on. This is a case where it would be better to
use a bending bar wrench, I would think. In any case, in order to
check if it was higher than 160, you'd have to go beyond 160, and
then you would be at THAT figure and have to loosen and go back just
TO 160 or less maybe....interesting question, Jim. And I'm not an
engineer, so I get to say "Duh, I guess I just don't know!" (They
must teach in engineering school that there is no such term as "I
don't know" or "Gee, I didn't know that")
Joking aside, I guess that if, say, 160 is allowed, maybe you should
set to 155, then if subsequent re-checks at 155 proved a higher
reading...up to 160, then you're ok. If it went beyond 160, it's time
to loosen all and re-torque....maybe.
In the case of a wooden prop, I think the operative watchwords are on
the label which shall remain affixed to my prop, near the hub, where
is says something like "Warning: Wooden props are subject to humidity
changes and should be checked for proper torque frequently, and...."
I see the wooden prop as being a living thing that absorbs water and
swells accordingly. If the torque is too great...for too long a
time....fiber crushing can result. If the torque-check shows too high
a tension, then loosening to something less and retightening to specs
MAY keep the fibers from breaking. If not too much time has gone by
with the tension ever-increasing due to high humidity, then maybe a
frequent torque check can arrest the damage. I am imagining something
being restrained, then swelling up to the point of bursting, but if
the restraints are relaxed, no bursting takes place.
(long-winded response that says nothing) : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 20, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
[quote]
<jcrowder(at)lpbroadband.net>
Lynn,
How do you know if it is too high without loosening first?
Jim Crowder
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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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jcrowder(at)lpbroadband.n Guest
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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I am also not an engineer, but there have been times in the past when I have
read engineering books. This was mostly in regard to my time in the
construction business. I have read that wood is a great material because of
its ability to accept excessive loads, to deflect, and to then recover when
the excessive short term load is removed. Short term is important here
because if the excessive load is allowed to remain, damage very likely.
Steel and concrete do not share this same ability to recover. Some of the
recovery ability probably applies here. In construction, this recovery
while common, is not something a designer can count on and assuming it would
be a mistake. It is probably the same here.
Jim Crowder
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:21 pm Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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Check each bolt at the spec torque. If any are loose they will tighten to
spec.
Any that do not move, one at a time, back them one half turn then torque to
spec.
Noel
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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Wood and synthetic composite props also have the ability to absorb a lot of
vibration. They shouldn't be flown through rain.
Noel
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Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008 Posts: 280 Location: Bellevue WA
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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On Fri, February 20, 2009 9:47 am, Jim Crowder wrote:
Quote: |
Lynn,
How do you know if it is too high without loosening first?
|
In his example, if the 5/16ths doesn't move checking to 160 in-lbs, it is either too
tight or ok. You have to have a priori knowledge to make the decision.
You wouldn't loosen and re tighten bolts holding a wood prop, for example. You'd only
check torque setting is at the minimum of the range.
On other bolts if the allowable range were say 130 to 160, you can check until they
move first time tightening to 130, check until they break loose but don't go over 160.
If you have or for some reason the nut or bolt is binding, loosen and lubricate and
retighten. Except in the case of wood props, don't loosen and retighten.
Wet loctite is a lubricant but after it sets up, the break loose torque isn't a good
measure of strain in tension on the bolt. (strain in the engineering sense in/in).
There are two considerations made when specifying torque. One is to achieve the
desired shear strength between layers of stuff bolted together and the other is to
protect the bolt by not exceeding it's allowable tensile load which is mostly
determined by material properties of the bolt which are coded into the bolt cap with
marks. Some could have allowable tensile loads as high as 280ksi.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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_________________ Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:55 am Post subject: Seasonal change reminder |
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But what you suggest....
"You wouldn't loosen and re tighten bolts holding a wood prop, for
example. You'd only check torque setting is at the minimum of the
range.".....is not what Sensenich tells us to do. The following is
from their torque-checking instructions:
AN5 5/16” bolts
Above 160 (in-lbs) Loosen Bolts, re-torque see Table 1
This information is in the document which can be found at: http://
www.sensenichprop.com/sen_html/aircraft_cet/install/cf-a.pdf
Table 1 shows torques for different size bolts, while Table 2 shows
"Bolt Torque Check Values / Actions"
By telling the reader to "Loosen Bolts, re-torque see Table 1" they
are...reading between the lines here...suggesting it is a far worse
condition to leave the torque at too high a value, than to reduce the
torque and set it to a lower value. From what I've learned in
dealing with wood objects in other disciplines...cabinet-making, for
example, wood fibers can be crushed, but will come"back to life" if
left alone, or better by wetting the wood and applying heat to the
crushed area, if it is not too badly crushed/dented. This is exactly
what I did when my prop hit my friends hand when doing a compression
check. The rear of the blade struck his hand and the trailing edge
was dented, and a splinter broke off, hanging by a few wood fibers. I
reattached the splinter which was about 3" x 1/2" in size, and
following that I sanded and soaked the dented area, then applied heat
and the dented area all but returned to its original shape and size.
This is all to say that I believe they are correct in saying "loosen
and retighten to specs".
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 20, 2009, at 11:09 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:
Quote: |
<paul(at)eucleides.com>
On Fri, February 20, 2009 9:47 am, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> <jcrowder(at)lpbroadband.net>
>
> Lynn,
> How do you know if it is too high without loosening first?
In his example, if the 5/16ths doesn't move checking to 160 in-lbs,
it is either too
tight or ok. You have to have a priori knowledge to make the decision.
You wouldn't loosen and re tighten bolts holding a wood prop, for
example. You'd only
check torque setting is at the minimum of the range.
On other bolts if the allowable range were say 130 to 160, you can
check until they
move first time tightening to 130, check until they break loose but
don't go over 160.
If you have or for some reason the nut or bolt is binding, loosen
and lubricate and
retighten. Except in the case of wood props, don't loosen and
retighten.
Wet loctite is a lubricant but after it sets up, the break loose
torque isn't a good
measure of strain in tension on the bolt. (strain in the
engineering sense in/in).
There are two considerations made when specifying torque. One is to
achieve the
desired shear strength between layers of stuff bolted together and
the other is to
protect the bolt by not exceeding it's allowable tensile load which
is mostly
determined by material properties of the bolt which are coded into
the bolt cap with
marks. Some could have allowable tensile loads as high as 280ksi.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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