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keithhickling(at)clear.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Karl,

 I don't disagree with what you say at all.  I, like I  suspect Ron, Graham and Mike, was just discussing the theoretical  aspacts.

  

 ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Mike

A few random thoughts

The stall warner is in fact a single point AoA meter. It tells you that 

the wing is about to stall .

Near the ground attitude is important so you have to look out.

An audio AoA similar to the variometers in gliders would be nice. Just 

like the stall warner but callibrated to give varying tone around the 

critical AoA

My main point about AoA is it warns you when you get near stall, the ASI 

tells you that you are at stall speed 20 seconds too late.

Graham



Mike Parkin wrote:

[quote] 



 Graham,



 I am not sure what is the safer route.  I have never flown a low wing

 loading ac with an angle of attack system, so I cannot say how useful it

 would be.  Certainly in many jets it is the major source for performance

 indication.  Having said that, with experience, for performance manoeuvring

 I found that buffet was as good an indication as looking at the AoA

 indicator/HUD. I guess it is 'what ever floats your particular boat'.



 Personally with the Monowheel Europa, I tend to subscribe to Carl's view on

 the problem.  I have the Factory stall warner which I have found to be

 spot-on.  It gives an aural warning of impending stall in both

 configurations.  As an added bonus it gives a good indication of an

 approaching accelerated stall.



 Approach speed and approach path are important, but I find that having

 arrived at the flare in good shape it becomes a case of keeping one's head

 out of the cockpit and landing the monowheel very much by feel and visual

 reference.  Now if the stall warner sounds just before the tailwheel makes

 contact slightly before the mainwheel - then it truly is a red letter day.



 Regards,



 Mike.



 Do not archive.



 --

Fergus Kyle

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Burlington ON Canada

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

I have been following the subject correspondence and must say I

think the proponents of the Europa Stall Warner have a point. However, their

sole interest appears to be finding out when they are going to stall - and

nothing else. That is of course important and stall strips will give them

that.

	However when you turn to the AoA system, you encounter much more.

Having experienced an AoA approach to a carrier, I can say that there is no

comparison. Yes, it gives you your approach to a stall [and much more timely

and accurate warning than a stall warner does]. It also tells you when to

accept an ideal soar figure for loss of engine, when to revert to and use a

long-range attitude, how to loop with the same AoA around the circle - and

what effect ground effect has on stall speed. AND all these automatically

adjust for change in weight or CG - no charts needed.

	The argument about diverting attention during landing loses value

when the warning is visual and in the vision of the lander, i.e: on the

coaming where the landing strip is seen. Since a change of colour is all it

provides, little or no conscious diversion should occur. Of course the ideal

warning should be in a HUD, but that's a touch effete in a Europa.

Naturally, a needle down on the instrument panel is useless for the stall

problem.

	Just my $0.02.

Ferg

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Fergus Kyle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 	I have been following the subject correspondence and must say I

 think the proponents of the Europa Stall Warner have a point.  Of course the ideal

 warning should be in a HUD, but that's a touch effete in a Europa.

 Naturally, a needle down on the instrument panel is useless for the stall

 problem.

 	Just my $0.02.

 Ferg

Fergus
	


worth rather more than 2 cents imho

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Hi Ferg,



All totally true.  But don't forget that most "heavy metal" with AOA also

had a stick/pedal shaker.  Presumably to warn those pilots of an incipient

stall that they had missed on the indexers/HUD.  As I recall for deck ops,

the F4 had an AOA audio as well as indexer lights and a head down indicator.

Certainly, ours did.



I never did think that the AOA was the panacea to all ills.  IAS and power

setting were also very important.  It is possible to make the AOA read

whatever you like, although the flight path might not be the one required.

Yes, the AOA will indicate the best glide angle but depending on the wind,

that might not give the best speed to fly.  The ability to fly a  constant

AOA loop is a little on the irrelevant side in an aircraft that is not

cleared for aerobatics.



I think that once in ground effect an AOA indication is a bit superfluous on

an aircraft that when landing is virtually stalled - monowheel anyway.

The choice of to buy or not to buy is an individual one, and I would be the

last to criticise anyone's decision to fit AOA.  If it works for them, then

great.  I would personally spend the money on a better radio or a Mode S

transponder.

My 2 pence worth.



Regards,



Mike



Do not archive



--

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Ferg,



PS.  Stall strips can affect short field performance - a stall warner does

not.



Regards,



Mike

--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Mike

absolutely right, anywhere between 15 ft altitude and zero, the visual 

cues are all you need. However it's the earlier stages from base leg to 

late finals where AoA is more useful and ASI is less useful, (imho, I 

don't have your or Fergs' experience, or Ivan's come to that) I speak as 

a not very current, not very intuitive pilot but with some painful 

experience. It would be nice if I can save someone from making my 

mistakes again.

Graham



Mike Parkin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think that once in ground effect an AOA indication is a bit superfluous on

 an aircraft that when landing is virtually stalled - monowheel anyway.

 The choice of to buy or not to buy is an individual one, and I would be the

 last to criticise anyone's decision to fit AOA.  If it works for them, then

 great.  I would personally spend the money on a better radio or a Mode S

 transponder.

 My 2 pence worth.



 Regards,



 Mike

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

That's why I took em off. Wish I hadn't now 

Graham

incidentally that's another story, very careful attention to the leading 

edge profile (digital airfoil section as Don designed) make an enormous 

difference to the character of the stall. 3 times and 3 airplanes now 

many hours spent on the LE have given very good low speed handling. It's 

the first 3 inches of the leading edge that make all the difference.



Mike Parkin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ferg,



 PS.  Stall strips can affect short field performance - a stall warner does

 not.



 Regards,



 Mike

rob(at)hyperion-ef.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Only one of the following can reliably keep you from making a smoking hole

in the ground if you make the wrong small mistake at the wrong altitude:



Mode S transponder

Better radio

Stall warning device

AOA



Guess which one.

 



Best regards,



Rob Housman

Irvine, CA 

Europa XS Tri-Gear

A070

Airframe complete



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Which one Rob? stall warner and AoA are both angle of attack devices 

Graham



Rob Housman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Only one of the following can reliably keep you from making a smoking hole

 in the ground if you make the wrong small mistake at the wrong altitude:



 Mode S transponder

 Better radio

 Stall warning device

 AOA



 Guess which one.

  



 Best regards,



 Rob Housman

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

OK, Uncle Uncle - you must be right.



MP

--

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Hi Graham



"very careful attention to the leading 

 	  Quote: 	
		   edge profile (digital airfoil section as Don designed) make an enormous 

 difference to the character of the stall. 3 times and 3 airplanes now 

 many hours spent on the LE have given very good low speed handling. It's 

 the first 3 inches of the leading edge that make all the difference."


	


Don Dykins talks of Europa airfoil in his book and essentially what he

does is puts an amount of NASA Lead Edge Droop that keeps stall very

acceptable but not so much as to increase high speed drag too much. 



He accomplished this by using computer at work and plotting many points.

On Classic it is a lot harder to keep airfoil to his specification

compared to XS I am sure!



On my 80 oz 3/4 hp 48" flying wing I put articulatable NASA Lead Edge

droop on the outboard 1" of wing that has range between -5 and +30

degrees. 



Without any droop the plane is stink fast, but I will crash 1 in 4

landings!  Will snap upside down, almost unrecoverable from 1000 feet,

make a hole from 100 feet guaranteed.



Dial in ~ 10 degrees and the plane turns into a pussycat as far as stalls

go! Anything more and stall is fine just begins to drag up at higher

speeds.



As a note if I go to -5 degrees the plane is even faster than with 0

degrees, you do not want to get anywhere near stall, plane snaps upside

down sooooo fast.



I fooled with 5 degrees droop on much lighter loaded planes that had poor

stall manors (35oz and 20oz) and it cured the problem instantly.



Anyway looking at my XS short wing, the first about 3 inches on the bottom

looks just about right to my "eyechrometer" to be a great compromise to

allow benign stalling and not drag up at higher speeds.



I can see on a Classic if shape on bottom of wing gets changed not even

too much, plane will fly fine, but stalls can become interesting. 



In Dons book he speaks of how nasty stalling on some yesteryear aircraft

was dealt with by adding in the field NASA Lead Edge Droop (Brits have

another name for NASA Lead Edge Droop). Idea is to keep taking some away

till stall got nasty then add a little more back, then attach permanent.



I mentioned a while back if I have a plane that drops a wing, instead of

stalling the better wing at a faster airspeed by installing stall strips,

I think I would rather fix the worst wing to fly slower. 



Even on a plane where AOA on one wing and flap is off, NASA Lead Edge

droop added will help out, if not a complete fix, then at least in part

with stall strips if really whacked. I know that Bud thinks not much or

changing angle of a wing for a poor flying plane.



NASA Lead Edge Droop changes the AOA of the wing, by adding to the bottom

of the lead edge of the wing it decreases AOA of that wing.



I fully agree with Graham that starting with the lead edge lower part of

europa wing to be what Don had in mind ("Dons Droop") is a great idea. 



Graham would you be willing to make up some profile templates so mere

mortals could check their plane? I for one will order.



Having too much droop will only cause high speed drag, too little can make

stall a lot more violent.



Flying a heavily loaded plane will probably bring out the worst in a

Europa with not enough of "Dons Droop". Since plane was designed for 1370

AUW, flying at 1450, 1500 or 1525 even if it is only a few times in the

life of your europa it would be wise to make sure you have at least what

Don had in mind. 



Ron Parigoris

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Ooooopppps



"> On my 80 oz 3/4 hp 48" flying wing I put articulatable NASA Lead Edge

 	  Quote: 	
		   droop on the outboard 1" of wing"


	


Sorry that should have been 1 foot not 1".  Each half of wing is 2 feet

long (24") and 1 foot (12") is articulatable.



Ron P.

BTW on my flying wings as I mentioned the weight ranges from 10oz to 80oz.

That is bout the same as flying a short wing europa between 750lbs and

7,500lbs!

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Hi Ron

The essential thing is that the nose radius is quite small, therefore 

VERY easily sanded away, it is also as you say drooped a bit. The effect 

is very subtle and not obvious to the unaided eye.

My confused PC has hidden the CAD file of the airfoil section somewhere. 

(I Hate Windoze!) I did publish it on the forum a few weeks ago so 

anyone who has it please republish it?

Can't see myself being able to help just at the moment. Too many other 

pressures, not least a depressed Long EZ still not ready.

Graham

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Graham

 Don Dykins talks of Europa airfoil in his book and essentially what he

 does is puts an amount of NASA Lead Edge Droop that keeps stall very

 acceptable but not so much as to increase high speed drag too much. 

 Graham would you be willing to make up some profile templates so mere

 mortals could check their plane? I for one will order.



 Having too much droop will only cause high speed drag, too little can make

 stall a lot more violent.



 Flying a heavily loaded plane will probably bring out the worst in a

 Europa with not enough of "Dons Droop". Since plane was designed for 1370

 AUW, flying at 1450, 1500 or 1525 even if it is only a few times in the

 life of your europa it would be wise to make sure you have at least what

 Don had in mind. 



 Ron Parigoris

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Sorry guys too much spackling today



"> BTW on my flying wings as I mentioned the weight ranges from 10oz to

80oz.

 	  Quote: 	
		   That is bout the same as flying a short wing europa between 750lbs and

 7,500lbs!"


	


Should have been between 750lbs and 6,000lbs.



Ron P.

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Hi Graham



I have a copy of the profile you posted and will attach to this E-Mail.



I don't have a program to open though.



Anyone want to make up some wing profiles? 



Could sent them around like reamers  for mod 72.



Ron Parigoris

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org



Attachments: 

http://www.europaowners.org//zfiles/wing_profile_graham_2_202.dwg

uvtreith(at)t-online.de
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: Pneumatic Installatíon

Hallo Europa Family,  

   

What an amazing response and discussion on the pneumatic installation job.  

Up to now I have counted 38 eMails with 11 Europa owners are involved and I have learned a lot of AOA, Stalls etc.  

   

This shows that our Europa-matronics-list is the best way to communicate.   

Many thanks for all this input.  

   

My previous question however was quite simple.  

As I have the Europa Stall Warner and the Dynon D 100 with its benefit to use also the integrated AOA device, I thought why not using when it is already there and as I have static ports on the fuselage sides, I thought why not using the static tube (on the Europa Pitot/Static device under the wing) as AOA probe. There are some others of us using a D 10, D 100 or D 180 with this benefit like Jos.   

   

But general of course: first will be to fly the Aircraft and feel it.  

   

I wish you all a good time and furthermore this alive active Europa group.  

Best Regards,  

   

Bruno Reith  

     

   

   

  

   

       [quote][b]

terobo(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Graham

I agree your sentiments and if you do not have AoA then you naturally

compensate.

Tim Robertson



--

m.grass(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: Pneumatic Installation

Ferg,



Last year I had the pleasure of getting a ride from John Wigney in his Mono 

N262WF. He has the neatest set up of an AOA installation from

http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AOA/aoa.html

The neat thing what sets him apart from any other installations is that he, 

unlike others, did not mount the display in the instrument panel face beside 

other instruments. Quizzing him he had a very valid point. He says he does 

not want to be distracted  by looking away onto the instrument panel while 

in the critical phase of landing. He mounted the display on top of the 

instrument module instead. Then he arranged a 1/2 inch wide mirror mounted 

on a spring loaded arm just in the filed of view. Part of his landing 

procedure is that he unlatches this spring loaded arm. It pops up 45 deg 

into the field of view almost like a HUD but only obstruct minimal to none 

the forward view. Another point for this device versus the Europa stall 

warner is that this is an analog device showing you always how much lift 

reserve you have before the wing will stall. The Europa Stall warner is 

warning at a specific point. For my aircraft,  I like this device but still 

will go with the Europa stall warner because I have it already and the price 

tag of about $900 is to steep for my opinion but I love his set up.



Unfortunately I forgot to take a picture of that installation. Maybe John 

could post a couple if he sees this post after his return from Oshkosh.



Thanks again John for giving me a ride at Jim Butchers home field last year 

before Oshkosh.

Michael Grass

N581MG Europa Trigear, Detroit

Still gluing and pasting

---

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