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Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

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mmesa005(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

Hello All,

  

 I am considering the purchase of a completed and flying Europa XS. I have corresponded with the seller and exchanged information, pictures, etc, everything looks fine so far. We are separated by several states and thus I don't have the option of driving over to see the airplane in person. My remaining concern is if I can fit comfortably in the airplane. I am 6', tall in the torso, sitting bolt upright on the floor I measure my head at 38". My weight is 210 lbs. I have read what I could find on this e-mail list as well as the Internet and the concensus is that 6' - 6' 1" is about max height for comfort. I would appreciate any additional input from current flyers / builders.

  

 I can't find the specific measurements of the cockpit from seat bottom to top of the cockpit, nor am I able to find the amount of recline the seatback has. Both would have been useful to make some measurements against and get a better approximation as to how much room there is in the cockpit. Anyone have these or can point me to a source?

  

 My previous airplane was a Lancair 320 which appears to have about the same amount of shoulder and head room as the Europa XS? Also, I live in Northern California, Cameron Park, so if there is anyone near me or in the Bay Area building or has a completed XS I would appreciate the opportunity to try the airplane on for size. Also, any Europa XS CFI's in the area?

  

 I really admire the Europa and to me it is the ultimate airplane with a great balance of features and efficiency. Of course I need to fit in the airplane comfortably!

  

 Thank's in advance for your help!

  

Regards,



Steven 

  Everyone is raving about

astills(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

Steven,  

I’m about the same as you in Height-6’1”, 37 or 38” from butt to top of head and 230 lbs. I fit comfortably into the XS seat while flying although I had to take 1” out of the   

padding from my seat cushion. I have 1” of high density foam on the bottom with shaped sides. I must say there is not a lot of room over my head but enough that in   

light turbulence  I’m not bouncing  off the glass on the top. You do have an advantage over me as I wish my legs were about 1” shorter. They then would not rest upon   

the air duct on the side wall. Altogether I’m quite comfortable while flying although I’ve only flown for 2-3 hrs at a time while flying my 40 hrs off.   

Al Stills  

N625AZ  

Phoenix, Ariz  

   

   

   

        [quote][b]

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

Hi Stephen,

  

 We have a mono-wheel XS that we have been flying for  over 5 years.  We keep the plane at Livermore airport, and would be glad to  show it to you, and give you a chance to sit in it, or go for a flight if you  like and the weather permits.

  

 regards,

 Terry Seaver

 N135TD

  



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven  Janicki

Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 2:27 PM

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Perspective Europa XS  purchase - Questions for the group

 

  

 Hello All,

  

 I am considering the purchase of a completed and flying Europa XS. I  have corresponded with the seller and exchanged information, pictures, etc,  everything looks fine so far. We are separated by several states and thus I  don't have the option of driving over to see the airplane in  person. My remaining concern is if I can fit comfortably in the  airplane. I am 6', tall in the torso, sitting bolt upright on the floor I  measure my head at 38". My weight is 210 lbs. I have read what I could find on  this e-mail list as well as the Internet and the concensus is that 6' - 6'  1" is about max height for comfort. I would appreciate any additional input  from current flyers / builders.

  

 I can't find the specific measurements of the cockpit from seat bottom  to top of the cockpit, nor am I able to find the amount of recline the seatback  has. Both would have been useful to make some measurements against and get a  better approximation as to how much room there is in the cockpit. Anyone have  these or can point me to a source?

  

 My previous airplane was a Lancair 320 which appears to have about the same  amount of shoulder and head room as the Europa XS? Also, I live in Northern  California, Cameron Park, so if there is anyone near me or in the Bay Area  building or has a completed XS I would appreciate the opportunity to try the  airplane on for size. Also, any Europa XS CFI's in the area?

  

 I really admire the Europa and to me it is the ultimate airplane with a  great balance of features and efficiency. Of course I need to fit in the  airplane comfortably!

  

 Thank's in advance for your help!

  

Regards,



Steven  

  Everyone is raving about http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List 

the Web 

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 

=========== [/b][quote][b]

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

Hi Steve - I'm 6"1" and 215 lbs, long torso and fairly wide shoulders and 

am fairly comfortable

for up to 2 hrs.  Not a lot of extra room to move around.  I would like to 

move the rudder

pedals forward a couple inches sometime but the rudder is really not needed 

in flight so you

can stretch out one foot at a time between the pedals.  My left shoulder is 

pushing against

the door frame somewhat but is mostly below it.  I will do the shoulder 

width mod sometime

as well.  I did the LA mod that lets you scoot towards the tunnel a bit to 

get away from the

door frame but I really don't notice any discomfort for 2 hrs.  I reduced 

the back seat pad to

one inch foam and only use the one shaped butt pad not the 2nd flat pad.

  If your thighs are much bigger than mine, the stick movement at the flare 

can be limited.

I can just hit the aileron stop both ways if I press into my thigh slightly. 

  I do caution my

passenger to put their right foot between the rudder pedals for landing so 

as not to limit

right aileron travel in the flare but it has never been a problem.  I have 

about an inch of

headroom.  Hope this helps - good luck!



                                                   Glenn

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Steven Janicki <mmesa005(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the 

group

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:27:01 -0800 (PST)



Hello All,



I am considering the purchase of a completed and flying Europa XS. I have 

corresponded with the seller and exchanged information, pictures, etc, 

everything looks fine so far. We are separated by several states and thus I 

don't have the option of driving over to see the airplane in person. My 

remaining concern is if I can fit comfortably in the airplane. I am 6', 

tall in the torso, sitting bolt upright on the floor I measure my head at 

38". My weight is 210 lbs. I have read what I could find on this e-mail 

list as well as the Internet and the concensus is that 6' - 6' 1" is about 

max height for comfort. I would appreciate any additional input from 

current flyers / builders.



I can't find the specific measurements of the cockpit from seat bottom to 

top of the cockpit, nor am I able to find the amount of recline the 

seatback has. Both would have been useful to make some measurements against 

and get a better approximation as to how much room there is in the cockpit. 

Anyone have these or can point me to a source?



My previous airplane was a Lancair 320 which appears to have about the same 

amount of shoulder and head room as the Europa XS? Also, I live in Northern 

California, Cameron Park, so if there is anyone near me or in the Bay Area 

building or has a completed XS I would appreciate the opportunity to try 

the airplane on for size. Also, any Europa XS CFI's in the area?



I really admire the Europa and to me it is the ultimate airplane with a 

great balance of features and efficiency. Of course I need to fit in the 

airplane comfortably!



Thank's in advance for your help!



Regards,



Steven



______________________________________________________________


	


_________________________________________________________________

Find what you need at prices you’ll love. Compare products and save at MSN® 

Shopping. 

http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata 4102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701

willie.harrison(at)tinyon
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

Hi Steven and a provisional welcome to the Europa community. I can add nothing to the comments on cabin space but I did want to make a comment about another aspect. I also bought someone else's recently completed XS (Trigear). It looked great but under the skin there were some serious build quality problems which have taken 3 years to sort out.  So, I would advise that you take along someone who is very familiar with the design who knows where to look and what to prod. If that is not feasible then perhaps through this forum you could collect everyone's list of things to look out for. At least if you find some of these problems present you'll be able to take an decision about whether to buy and sort it or whether to look elsewhere.

Whatever route you take to getting a well sorted Europa it will be worth it. Performance, handling and running costs are all very good.



Best wishes



Willie

G-BZNY





On 20 Feb 2007, at 22:27, Steven Janicki wrote:

[quote]

Hello All,

 

I am considering the purchase of a completed and flying Europa XS. I have corresponded with the seller and exchanged information, pictures, etc, everything looks fine so far. We are separated by several states and thus I don't have the option of driving over to see the airplane in person. My remaining concern is if I can fit comfortably in the airplane. I am 6', tall in the torso, sitting bolt upright on the floor I measure my head at 38". My weight is 210 lbs. I have read what I could find on this e-mail list as well as the Internet and the concensus is that 6' - 6' 1" is about max height for comfort. I would appreciate any additional input from current flyers / builders.

 

I can't find the specific measurements of the cockpit from seat bottom to top of the cockpit, nor am I able to find the amount of recline the seatback has. Both would have been useful to make some measurements against and get a better approximation as to how much room there is in the cockpit. Anyone have these or can point me to a source?

 

My previous airplane was a Lancair 320 which appears to have about the same amount of shoulder and head room as the Europa XS? Also, I live in Northern California, Cameron Park, so if there is anyone near me or in the Bay Area building or has a completed XS I would appreciate the opportunity to try the airplane on for size. Also, any Europa XS CFI's in the area?

 

I really admire the Europa and to me it is the ultimate airplane with a great balance of features and efficiency. Of course I need to fit in the airplane comfortably!

 

Thank's in advance for your help!

 

Regards,Steven

Everyone is raving about [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=45083/*http://advision.webev[quote][b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List[/url]http://forums.matronics.com[b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

Steven I am 6-2" (but only 185 lbs) and fit comfortably in my XS. There is

the point that you need to sit with your head virtually touching the canopy

in order to maximise vis over the front, so that folk tend to build up their

upholstery to get themselves up to that point, so that trying someone else's

Europa for size only gives you the full story if you can adjust the cushion

height. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

mmesa005(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

Thanks to all who responded! The information regarding fit and the offer to actually try an XS on for size are greatly appreciated! I am also glad to see that the Europa mail list is quite active and a great resource.

  

 For the record my Lancair 320 had the original "short tail", for me having first been a helicopter pilot nullified the impact of the short tail.

 

 

Regards,



Steven  

  

do not archive 

  Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. [quote][b]

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

Hi Willie,



Could you please detail what the build quality problems were?

We at least would know what to look out for from your experience.

Secondly, you are in the UK, so why did the inspector pass that plane?

Kind Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen



workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

http://www.europaowners.org/kit600

mono xs, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, fuel system in, doors done,  

windows in, filled and sanded, waiting for the painter, engine  

installation, panel.

willie.harrison(at)tinyon
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

Hi Jos



Can I answer your second question first? The Europa is for me a  

return to a PFA type after 15 years of flying a certified type.  

Previously I had a share in a plans-built Jodel which was massive fun  

to fly but a death trap. I was dismayed then by the low standard of  

workmanship which had obviously been passed when the aircraft was  

built and also by the lax standard of the yearly inspection. After  

two engine failures within a year I went off to find something more  

dependable. When I bought the Europa (Total time 12 hours when  

purchased) it was with the blind faith that things must have moved on  

- better designs, better build standards required and better annual  

inspections. The good news is that there are obviously some superb  

inspectors out there with huge knowledge of Europas - my inspector,  

Tony Kay, is utterly strict when he needs to be, sensibly pragmatic  

when he can be and always very helpful - in all respects a top man.  

Having built his own monowheel and having inspected many other  

Europas, he knew exactly where to look for problems with my aircraft  

and boy did he find them (see later). The bad news is that there are  

clearly also inspectors out there (I can't name individuals in  

writing, the laws of defamation being what they are) who have signed  

off appalling workmanship, either because they didn't spot it or  

perhaps because they didn't think it mattered.



Anyway, here's a list of the things I can recall:



- The fuel tank was resting on the screws which secure the inspection  

panels under the fuselage - it was only a matter of time before the  

screws would have chiselled their way through the tank)



- Elevator total travel was below the required spec (by 1 degree)



- The exhaust stub was put on at the wrong angle causing later heat  

damage to the port side fuselage



- The rudder cables were fouling in about 8 places in total  

(including against the brake pipes which were being sawn through, and  

the edge of the tank likewise).



- Rudder linkage was fouling badly on firewall



- Lots of minor but mandatory items were missing: switch and circuit  

breaker i/ds, on/off placards, limits for T's and P's and airspeeds



- Coolant hose routed too close to exhaust (and scorched as a result)



- Starter-engaged warning light not connected



- Alternator warning light missing



- Fuel filler pipe wrongly assembled and leaking as a result (the  

tank was routinely dumping top 15 litres into the baggage area when  

filled).



- Instrument panel fixing screws were all insecure and virtually  

every instrument was either inoperative or had a significant problem.



- The cable crimps at the regulator looked as if they had been done  

with pliers - one simply fell out. Elsewhere the wiring and vacuum  

piping was untidy at best.



- The left and right tailplanes had an inch of slop measured at the  

trailing edge (max allowable I recall is 3/16) - this was not due to  

wear but apparently to the torque tube holes having been filed out to  

make assembly easier...



- Aileron pushrod assembly incorrectly rivetted allowing freeplay



- Missing lock nut in elevator mass balance assembly



- Fireproofing sleeves missing on under cowl fuel pipes



- Wrong material used for coolant overflow pipe



- Missing sealant at holes in engine bulkhead



- Several areas of snagging/fouling in aileron linkage



- Numerous areas where fuel pipes were at risk of abrasion eg rubbing  

on aileron torque tube, rudder cables, hole through baggage bay rib etc



- Speed kit incorrectly installed (flap hinge covers abrading flap  

hinges and U/C fairing fell off in flight)



Quite a list as you see. I make no criticism of the builder - the PFA  

ethos is that you can take as many attempts as you need to meet the  

required build standard and the inspector will - should - keep  

failing the job until you get it right. It was the inspector who  

failed, not the builder. I am grateful to Tony Kay for helping me  

find and fix this little lot. We now have dealt with the dangerous  

faults (most of the above) and are now moving on to do a re-wire and  

panel rebuild to finish licking G-BZNY into shape. Fixing someone  

else's poor workmanship is a character-building task but the result  

has been worth it - as everyone knows, they are super aircraft if  

they are built right.



Cheers!



Willie Harrison



On 21 Feb 2007, at 18:09, Jos Okhuijsen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Willie,



 Could you please detail what the build quality problems were?

 We at least would know what to look out for from your experience.

 Secondly, you are in the UK, so why did the inspector pass that plane?

 Kind Regards,



 Jos Okhuijsen



 workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

 http://www.europaowners.org/kit600

 mono xs, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, fuel system in,  

 doors done, windows in, filled and sanded, waiting for the painter,  

 engine installation, panel.

rsc-93(at)hotmail.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:52 am Post subject: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for 

the group

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:13:59 +0000




<willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>



Hi Jos



Can I answer your second question first? The Europa is for me a  return to 

a PFA type after 15 years of flying a certified type.  Previously I had a 

share in a plans-built Jodel which was massive fun  to fly but a death 

trap. I was dismayed then by the low standard of  workmanship which had 

obviously been passed when the aircraft was  built and also by the lax 

standard of the yearly inspection. After  two engine failures within a year 

I went off to find something more  dependable. When I bought the Europa 

(Total time 12 hours when  purchased) it was with the blind faith that 

things must have moved on  - better designs, better build standards 

required and better annual  inspections. The good news is that there are 

obviously some superb  inspectors out there with huge knowledge of Europas 

- my inspector,  Tony Kay, is utterly strict when he needs to be, sensibly 

pragmatic  when he can be and always very helpful - in all respects a top 

man.  Having built his own monowheel and having inspected many other  

Europas, he knew exactly where to look for problems with my aircraft  and 

boy did he find them (see later). The bad news is that there are  clearly 

also inspectors out there (I can't name individuals in  writing, the laws 

of defamation being what they are) who have signed  off appalling 

workmanship, either because they didn't spot it or  perhaps because they 

didn't think it mattered.



Anyway, here's a list of the things I can recall:



- The fuel tank was resting on the screws which secure the inspection  

panels under the fuselage - it was only a matter of time before the  screws 

would have chiselled their way through the tank)



- Elevator total travel was below the required spec (by 1 degree)



- The exhaust stub was put on at the wrong angle causing later heat  damage 

to the port side fuselage



- The rudder cables were fouling in about 8 places in total  (including 

against the brake pipes which were being sawn through, and  the edge of the 

tank likewise).



- Rudder linkage was fouling badly on firewall



- Lots of minor but mandatory items were missing: switch and circuit  

breaker i/ds, on/off placards, limits for T's and P's and airspeeds



- Coolant hose routed too close to exhaust (and scorched as a result)



- Starter-engaged warning light not connected



- Alternator warning light missing



- Fuel filler pipe wrongly assembled and leaking as a result (the  tank was 

routinely dumping top 15 litres into the baggage area when  filled).



- Instrument panel fixing screws were all insecure and virtually  every 

instrument was either inoperative or had a significant problem.



- The cable crimps at the regulator looked as if they had been done  with 

pliers - one simply fell out. Elsewhere the wiring and vacuum  piping was 

untidy at best.



- The left and right tailplanes had an inch of slop measured at the  

trailing edge (max allowable I recall is 3/16) - this was not due to  wear 

but apparently to the torque tube holes having been filed out to  make 

assembly easier...



- Aileron pushrod assembly incorrectly rivetted allowing freeplay



- Missing lock nut in elevator mass balance assembly



- Fireproofing sleeves missing on under cowl fuel pipes



- Wrong material used for coolant overflow pipe



- Missing sealant at holes in engine bulkhead



- Several areas of snagging/fouling in aileron linkage



- Numerous areas where fuel pipes were at risk of abrasion eg rubbing  on 

aileron torque tube, rudder cables, hole through baggage bay rib etc



- Speed kit incorrectly installed (flap hinge covers abrading flap  hinges 

and U/C fairing fell off in flight)



Quite a list as you see. I make no criticism of the builder - the PFA  

ethos is that you can take as many attempts as you need to meet the  

required build standard and the inspector will - should - keep  failing the 

job until you get it right. It was the inspector who  failed, not the 

builder. I am grateful to Tony Kay for helping me  find and fix this little 

lot. We now have dealt with the dangerous  faults (most of the above) and 

are now moving on to do a re-wire and  panel rebuild to finish licking 

G-BZNY into shape. Fixing someone  else's poor workmanship is a 

character-building task but the result  has been worth it - as everyone 

knows, they are super aircraft if  they are built right.



Cheers!



Willie Harrison



On 21 Feb 2007, at 18:09, Jos Okhuijsen wrote:



>

>

>Hi Willie,

>

>Could you please detail what the build quality problems were?

>We at least would know what to look out for from your experience.

>Secondly, you are in the UK, so why did the inspector pass that plane?

>Kind Regards,

>

>Jos Okhuijsen

>

>workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

>http://www.europaowners.org/kit600

>mono xs, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, fuel system in,  doors 

>done, windows in, filled and sanded, waiting for the painter,  engine 

>installation, panel.

>

>






	


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http://www.slack-o-meter.com

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