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jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

How much fuel could you stuff into that 12" boom?  I figure nearly 100

gallons.  Although I think I'd go for at least the O320.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Get it registered with the EAA as I have mine now even though its FAT  I

 feel

 I needed something to announce my Approach /Departure and any other

 movements

 I had to do  around any airports Just seemed to make things safer in my

 mind

 But I am going to be getting  N numbered  this spring as I have been

 taking

 Ground school lately and I will be getting legal after 16 years of flying

 I

 guess my free flying time is about to end

 Hey then mabe I can build me a 4 place Kolb with a 12 inch tail boom tube,

 Aluminum wings,O235 Might have to call it a John Hauck Special for the

 long

 cross countrys  Wududa You Guys think? ...... LOL....... I just might be

 serious,

 ask my friends



 Original Firestar E008EB

 Ellery



 do not archive

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:26 pm Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

BEAUTIFUL PICTURE !!!!  Wow, that would make a GREAT postcard.



I thought about using my FF s/n as part of the call sign, but I'd rather

not have anything traceable to me.



This is off the original topic, but . . .

Controlled airspace does not imply a tower.  The Coeur d'Alene, Idaho

(KCOE) airport is uncontrolled (i.e., no tower), but has surface Class E

airspace within 5sm (to provide separation protection for the instrument

approaches).  Outside 5sm it becomes Class E airspace above 700 AGL, and

eventually uncontrolled airspace.  As I read the regs I cannot fly into

that airspace in an ultralight unless I contact Spokane Approach Control. 

Talking to local UL pilots, NOBODY contacts RAPCON.  If they have a radio

they will do as GA pilots do -- tune in the CATF and make their calls.



I was at the Spokane FSDO (FAA) office a few weeks ago and asked them

about this.  The "Operations" guy there said the Surface Class E was not

active unless it was IFR so during VFR the floor of the Class E airspace

over KCOE was 700 AGL.  I had never seen this in the regs.  I thought

surface class E was always there.  I told him that seemed unsafe if the

regs would force me to fly below 700AGL over an airport which would

interfere with traffic.  He then backed down saying he didn't know

anything about ultralights.



As you know, VFR GA pilots have no requirement to contact ATC in Class E

airspace. It seems odd that the regs would require UL pilots to do this,

but this is what the regs appear to say.



The bottom line:  I don't know for sure and it appears the FAA doesn't

either.

 	  Quote: 	
		   14feb07

 Jim,

    My FireFly was regestered with the EAA. They gave

 the plane E005CB as a reg. number. I have it on the

 tube in front of the tailfeathers in 4" numbers. As an

 ultralight I stay away from controled airspace, so I

 don't talk to the tower... But while on the radio to

 broadcast my intentions at uncontroled airports and

 CTAF I use "Ultralight Five Charlee Bravo".

    Attached is a photo shot from a Caravan at 7,000ft.

 It shows east Maui... the Hana airport, Hana bay and

 above the clouds the summit of Haleakala (10,000 ft.)

 Aloha,

 Henry



 Henry Voris

 P.O.Box 1194

 Kula,Hawaii 96790

 henry_voris(at)yahoo.com

 808-878-2443

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:57 am Post subject: Re: Ultralight Callsign

Since the early 80's when I first started carrying a hand held VHF radio in ultralights, I have used the station license of the radio for a call sign.  I'm always Ultralight 10U no matter what model ultralight I'm flying.



Even though the regulations don't address it specifically, aircraft other than certified GA aircraft usually use the type aircraft rather than the manufacturor in the call sign.  For instance,  a Phoebus sailplane will always call himself "Sailplane 90WS"  rather than "Phoebus 90WS".  A Grob motor glider will call himself "Motor Glider 90WS" rather than "Grob 90WS".  Usually, I hear experimental aircraft using the call sign "Experimental 90WS", rather than including a manufacturor's name (like Kolb).



After registration, I plan on calling myself "Light Sport 90WS" (actual numbers will be the registration numbers).  My guess is that once the light sport category becomes popular, they will shorten that to "Sport 90WS".  Probably during initial contact with tower, the best would be to use "Light Sport 90WS Experimental".

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:15 am Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

At 08:52 PM 2/14/07 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

>> Â§ 103.17   Operations in certain airspace.

>> No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within

>> Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or

>> within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of

>> Class E airspace designated for an airport unless

>> that person has prior authorization from the ATC

>> facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.

>>

>> The required authorization is required to be

>> obtained while the ultralight is still on the ground

>> and the ATC Facility contacted will give specific

>> instructions to the ultralight vehicle operator.

The above makes no requirement to obtain authorization while still on the

ground.  

Jim,

Am I missing something here?

For the last several years I have been flying into tower controlled airports 

for fly ins.  I always used a cell phone to call before leaving the ground.  

I have never been denied permission  to land.  I told them I was a red Kolb 

FireFly, I would explain my route, and we would agree on a holding pattern 

within sight of the tower until they could pick me up.  I told them I could 

hear them on the radio but due to the open cockpit they would not be able to 

understand any thing I said.  They always picked me up right away and phased 

me in between other air craft.  On one trip they called me several times on 

the way to ask where I was.  They phrased the questions so I could use PTT 

clicks to answer yes or no.

To get back out, I tail along with someone who has a good radio, or I use my 

cell phone.

The main thing is to not tie up the runways.  I fly to the ramp or cruise 

taxi.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

Arty,



I've been doing the same with our Allegro 2000 (not experimental) , 

that is,  using the prefix Light Sport. Initially when I used Allegro 

as a prefix there was nearly always a pause then a question asking for 

clarification of type in a perplexed tone of voice. Once I started 

using Light Sport the questions have diminished greatly. Sometimes I 

get questions out of curiosity about the make but no more confusion 

about type or category. I'm still waiting on the FAA to come up with a 

4 digit code for the type. I've been asked this before by ATC and I 

tell them we are still waiting on the FAA for the assignment.



FYI - FAA assigned codes for aircraft can be found here 

http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/CNT/5-1.htm



Thom in Buffalo

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

On first call to ground or tower, I was taught use the type and registration, i.e. "Cessna 7568 Tango", all acknowledgements would then be shortened to 68 Tango. When riding in the back of my buddies LongEZ, the first call was "Experimental 455 Zulu Delta" and all acknowledgements were 4 Zulu Delta. The only time I was ever asked for more information was when requesting flight following. The controllers at Whidbey Island NAS always asked "68 Tango, say aircraft type". "68 Tango is a Cessna 182".  

During one particularly dead evening as my date and I were coming back from a late dinner in Friday Harbor, I got a chance to chat with the controller a bit. He said it was their practice to assign transponder codes that reflected aircraft type, so they would know speed range, and direction of travel. Does this correspond to the experience of you ex ATC guys? 

At the Arlington Airshow the controllers in the temporary tower expect you to call ahead from a predetermined point. That was the only time they wanted to hear from aircraft. After that, the practice was don't call us, tower will call you, and no acknowledgement was wanted, other than follow their instructions. 

Rick

On 2/15/07, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>

At 08:52 PM 2/14/07 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Dunn" < jim(at)tru-cast.com (jim(at)tru-cast.com)>

>> § 103.17   Operations in certain airspace.

>> No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within

>> Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or 

>> within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of

>> Class E airspace designated for an airport unless

>> that person has prior authorization from the ATC

>> facility having jurisdiction over that airspace. 

>>

>> The required authorization is required to be

>> obtained while the ultralight is still on the ground

>> and the ATC Facility contacted will give specific

>> instructions to the ultralight vehicle operator. 

The above makes no requirement to obtain authorization while still on the

ground.

Jim,

Am I missing something here?

For the last several years I have been flying into tower controlled airports 

for fly ins.  I always used a cell phone to call before leaving the ground.

I have never been denied permission  to land.  I told them I was a red Kolb

FireFly, I would explain my route, and we would agree on a holding pattern 

within sight of the tower until they could pick me up.  I told them I could

hear them on the radio but due to the open cockpit they would not be able to

understand any thing I said.  They always picked me up right away and phased 

me in between other air craft.  On one trip they called me several times on

the way to ask where I was.  They phrased the questions so I could use PTT

clicks to answer yes or no.

To get back out, I tail along with someone who has a good radio, or I use my 

cell phone.

The main thing is to not tie up the runways.  I fly to the ramp or cruise

taxi.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winch=================== ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.co===================== ========= 

-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

Yep. Used it all the time. Or at least whenever I was working a  homebuilt.

 Here is part of the FAA manual that describes what you are looking  for.

 http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/CNT/5-3.htm

 It is a system whereby ATC knows what you are and how fast you are on a  flight plan.

 HXA is a homebuilt experimental with a cruise speed of less than 100 knots.  Kolbs fall into this category.

 HXB is for humebuilts flying between 100 & 200 knots, HXC is homebuilts  flying faster than 200 knots.

 If your Kolb has transponder with mode C, then you are a HXA/A.

 Now you know exactly what to put down when you file your next IFR flight  plan for your Firestar...

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

  

 ---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

Richard:



Canada wants the designator when you file VFR.  They use the same one 

as the US.



john h

mkIII



PS:  I also used my FCC radio license for my call sign when flying the 

Firestar.  For got the numbers, but the prefix was N.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

Actually, if you ask approach or even center for flight following, those are 

the same designators thye use also.

I was just being facetious about filing IFR in a Kolb.

Or at least I hope I was...

But if we stay on this list long enough, probably someone will come up with 

an IFR certified Kolb. <gag>



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

| But if we stay on this list long enough, probably someone will come 

up with

| an IFR certified Kolb. <gag>

|

| Richard Pike



Richard:



I know one Kolb pilot you will not have to worry about flying a Kolb 

aircraft IFR.  For that matter, I seldom fly at night anymore. 

Usually, only if I get caught out before I make my next landing.



john h

mkIII



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

OK I'll bite. What does LEBTF stand for?

I confess I don 't know. I can imagine some great ones tho.

And please remember that great non-cuss-phrase,



do not archive



On Feb 14, 2007, at 11:14 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:



[quote] 

 <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>

 ---

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Ultralight Callsign

This gets to be a little long, but some clarifications are in order:

-- Shall: means a procedure is mandatory.

-- Should: means a procedure is recommended.

-- May: means a procedure is optional.

-- Will: means futurity, not a requirement for the application of a procedure.



â€œI use â€œExperimental 381PM â€œ, Then after first call.... I use ... One ,Poppa, Mikeâ€

*** ATC specialists may initiate abbreviated call signs of other aircraft by using the prefix and the last three digits/letters of the aircraft identification after communications are established. The pilot may use the abbreviated call sign in subsequent contacts with the ATC specialist.



â€œOn first call to ground or tower, I was taught use the type and registration, i.e. â€œCessna 7568 Tangoâ€, all acknowledgements would then be shortened to 68 Tango. When riding in the back of my buddies LongEZ, the first call was â€œExperimental 455 Zulu Deltaâ€ and all acknowledgements were 4 Zulu Delta.â€

â€œP.S. So many experimentals do not have recognizable manufacturer names to GA pilots, so my instructor told me just to say â€œExperimental Two Two Six Niner Julietâ€ rather than â€œAventura Two Two Six Niner Juliet Experimentalâ€... and thatâ€™s what I did in a variety of Class D and Class C airspaces, and every pattern, and I never, ever had anyoneâ€”pilot or ATCâ€”suggest it was wrong or should be different. And it was/is a WHOLE lot simpler, too. So, thatâ€™s typically what I use now, even when I fly an ultralight.â€

*** Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration number.



â€œHOWEVER - almost no one outside the ultralight arena knows what a MaxAir Drifter is, so it doesnâ€™t tell them anything about my speed in the pattern, which is a key factor in separation at non-towered airports. I land at 35 -38 mph.â€

â€œGenerally youâ€™d say â€œMaxairâ€ or â€œDrifterâ€ but not both... but most of the experimental guys I know would just identify as â€œExperimental one-niner-six-four-Charlieâ€. If the tower needs to know more theyâ€™ll ask.â€

*** Using MaxAir or Drifter and your number is the correct callsign. The word â€œExperimentalâ€ as the prefix in a callsign is never correct.



â€œFor Experimental or E-LSA, Kolb would not be the manufacturer unless Elmer Kolb built and N-numbered your aircraft. Technically the builder is the person that assembled it. Also, donâ€™t include the model in the call sign. You never hear Cessna 182 147PG as a callsign, it would be Cessna 

147PG.â€

*** Aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name has been accepted by the FAA to include the Kit Manufacturer name and the precedence is in http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/CNT/5-2.htm



â€œIâ€™ve never heard that. As Iâ€™ve always understood it, â€œprior authorizationâ€ can be obtained while airborne, as long as you contact ATC before entering their airspace. Do you have a cite for the ground contact requirement?â€

*** AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE- An authorization by air traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace. The pilot-in-command of an aircraft may not deviate from the provisions of a visual flight rules (VFR) or instrument flight rules (IFR) air traffic clearance except in an emergency or unless an amended clearance has been obtained. Additionally, the pilot may request a different clearance from that which has been issued by air traffic control (ATC) if information available to the pilot makes another course of action more practicable or if aircraft equipment limitations or company procedures forbid compliance with the clearance issued. Pilots may also request clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time a clearance is not fully understood, or considered unacceptable because of safety of flight. Controllers should, in such instances and to the extent of operational practicality and safety, honor the pilotâ€™s request. 14 CFR Part 91.3(a) states: â€œThe pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.â€ THE PILOT IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilotâ€™s opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy.

*** I donâ€™t have any citation of the â€œground contact requirementâ€ except for common sense. I wouldnâ€™t fly up to an area and hope to be able to contact a controlling facility whose receiver might be a long way for my little radio to reach.  



â€œYou can get authorization by radio to deviate from the transponder/mode C requirement for Class B & C. If you donâ€™t have a radio it would have to be from the ground. If you donâ€™t have a Xpdr/mode C installed, it can be 1 hour prior (either by air or on the ground).â€

 *** There ia a big difference between asking for â€œPrior Authorizationâ€ and a â€œDeviationâ€.  Since an Ultralight is not an airplane, and FAR 91 does not apply, it canâ€™t be granted a â€œdeviationâ€, an ATC facility does have the ability to â€œAuthorizeâ€ it to perform a specific action.

*** ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:

(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time.

(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.

(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the proposed operation.



â€œAs I read the regs I cannot fly into that airspace in an ultralight unless I contact Spokane Approach Control. Talking to local UL pilots, NOBODY contacts RAPCON. If they have a radio they will do as GA pilots doâ€”tune in the CATF and make their calls.â€

*** Doing what the other fellow is doing wrong, doesnâ€™t make it right.



â€œThe â€œOperationsâ€ guy there said the Surface Class E was not active unless it was IFR so during VFR the floor of the Class E airspace over KCOE was 700 AGL.â€

*** Your â€œOperations guyâ€ needs to read the regs. Surface Based Class E airspace is as charted and always there. The big difference between that airport in Class E airspace as opposed to Class G airspace is the weather requirements to operate VFR.

Â§ 71.71   Class E airspace. 

Â§ 91.127   Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace.

Â§ 91.155   Basic VFR weather minimums.



Class E:  Less than 10,000 feet MSL...  3 statute miles... 500 feet below, 1,000 feet above, 2,000 feet, 2,000 feet horizontal from clouds.



Class G:1,200 feet or less above the surface (regardless of MSL altitude) (with Exceptions) â€¦â€¦ 1 statute mile....  Clear of clouds.



â€œIt is a system whereby ATC knows what you are and how fast you are on a flight plan. HXA is a homebuilt experimental with a cruise speed of less than 100 knots. Kolbs fall into this category. HXB is for humebuilts flying between 100 & 200 knots, HXC is homebuilts flying faster than 200 knots. If your Kolb has transponder with mode C, then you are a HXA/A.â€

*** An excellent explanation! The HXA, HXB and HXC are ICAO designations recognized worldwide for a homebuilt aircraft that hasnâ€™t had a Type Designation applied for and assigned.



I could keep going but Iâ€™m getting tired. The regs arenâ€™t that hard to read. Just remember that they are what they read and we canâ€™t interpret them to what is convenient, or to match what you are or have been doing.

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

John, you're obviously doing your homework, so I might have missed something...

  

 Experimental Operation Limitations, IAW FAA Order 8130.2F, must contain the line item, "The pilot in command of this aircraft must notify air traffic control of the experimental nature of this aircraft when operating into and out of airports with an operational control tower.  When filing IFR, the experimental nature of this aircraft must be listed in the remarks section of the flight plan "...

  

 DVD



 

 On 2/15/07, John Williamson <kolbrapilot1(at)comcast.net (kolbrapilot1(at)comcast.net)> wrote: [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" < kolbrapilot1(at)comcast.net (kolbrapilot1(at)comcast.net)>



This gets to be a little long, but some clarifications are in order:

-- Shall: means a procedure is mandatory.

-- Should: means a procedure is recommended.

-- May: means a procedure is optional. 

-- Will: means futurity, not a requirement for the application of a procedure.



"I use "Experimental 381PM ", Then after first call.... I use ... One ,Poppa, Mike"

*** ATC specialists may initiate abbreviated call signs of other aircraft by using the prefix and the last three digits/letters of the aircraft identification after communications are established. The pilot may use the abbreviated call sign in subsequent contacts with the ATC specialist. 



"On first call to ground or tower, I was taught use the type and registration, i.e. "Cessna 7568 Tango", all acknowledgements would then be shortened to 68 Tango. When riding in the back of my buddies LongEZ, the first call was "Experimental 455 Zulu Delta" and all acknowledgements were 4 Zulu Delta." 

"P.S. So many experimentals do not have recognizable manufacturer names to GA pilots, so my instructor told me just to say "Experimental Two Two Six Niner Juliet" rather than "Aventura Two Two Six Niner Juliet Experimental"... and that's what I did in a variety of Class D and Class C airspaces, and every pattern, and I never, ever had anyone—pilot or ATC—suggest it was wrong or should be different. And it was/is a WHOLE lot simpler, too. So, that's typically what I use now, even when I fly an ultralight." 

*** Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration number.



"HOWEVER - almost no one outside the ultralight arena knows what a MaxAir Drifter is, so it doesn't tell them anything about my speed in the pattern, which is a key factor in separation at non-towered airports. I land at 35 -38 mph." 

"Generally you'd say "Maxair" or "Drifter" but not both... but most of the experimental guys I know would just identify as "Experimental one-niner-six-four-Charlie". If the tower needs to know more they'll ask."

*** Using MaxAir or Drifter and your number is the correct callsign. The word "Experimental" as the prefix in a callsign is never correct. 



"For Experimental or E-LSA, Kolb would not be the manufacturer unless Elmer Kolb built and N-numbered your aircraft. Technically the builder is the person that assembled it. Also, don't include the model in the call sign. You never hear Cessna 182 147PG as a callsign, it would be Cessna 

147PG."

*** Aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name has been accepted by the FAA to include the Kit Manufacturer name and the precedence is in http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/CNT/5-1.htm .



"I've never heard that. As I've always understood it, "prior authorization" can be obtained while airborne, as long as you contact ATC before entering their airspace. Do you have a cite for the ground contact requirement?" 

*** AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE- An authorization by air traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace. The pilot-in-command of an aircraft may not deviate from the provisions of a visual flight rules (VFR) or instrument flight rules (IFR) air traffic clearance except in an emergency or unless an amended clearance has been obtained. Additionally, the pilot may request a different clearance from that which has been issued by air traffic control (ATC) if information available to the pilot makes another course of action more practicable or if aircraft equipment limitations or company procedures forbid compliance with the clearance issued. Pilots may also request clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time a clearance is not fully understood, or considered unacceptable because of safety of flight. Controllers should, in such instances and to the extent of! 

operational practicality and safety, honor the pilot's request. 14 CFR Part 91.3(a) states: "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." THE PILOT IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy. 

*** I don't have any citation of the "ground contact requirement" except for common sense. I wouldn't fly up to an area and hope to be able to contact a controlling facility whose receiver might be a long way for my little radio to reach. 



"You can get authorization by radio to deviate from the transponder/mode C requirement for Class B & C. If you don't have a radio it would have to be from the ground. If you don't have a Xpdr/mode C installed, it can be 1 hour prior (either by air or on the ground)." 

*** There ia a big difference between asking for "Prior Authorization" and a "Deviation".  Since an Ultralight is not an airplane, and FAR 91 does not apply, it can't be granted a "deviation", an ATC facility does have the ability to "Authorize" it to perform a specific action. 

*** ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:

(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time. 

(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time. 

(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the proposed operation.



"As I read the regs I cannot fly into that airspace in an ultralight unless I contact Spokane Approach Control. Talking to local UL pilots, NOBODY contacts RAPCON. If they have a radio they will do as GA pilots do—tune in the CATF and make their calls." 

*** Doing what the other fellow is doing wrong, doesn't make it right.



"The "Operations" guy there said the Surface Class E was not active unless it was IFR so during VFR the floor of the Class E airspace over KCOE was 700 AGL." 

*** Your "Operations guy" needs to read the regs. Surface Based Class E airspace is as charted and always there. The big difference between that airport in Class E airspace as opposed to Class G airspace is the weather requirements to operate VFR. 

§ 71.71   Class E airspace.

§ 91.127   Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace.

§ 91.155   Basic VFR weather minimums.



Class E:  Less than 10,000 feet MSL...  3 statute miles... 500 feet below, 1,000 feet above, 2,000 feet, 2,000 feet horizontal from clouds. 



Class G:1,200 feet or less above the surface (regardless of MSL altitude) (with Exceptions) …… 1 statute mile....  Clear of clouds.



"It is a system whereby ATC knows what you are and how fast you are on a flight plan. HXA is a homebuilt experimental with a cruise speed of less than 100 knots. Kolbs fall into this category. HXB is for humebuilts flying between 100 & 200 knots, HXC is homebuilts flying faster than 200 knots. If your Kolb has transponder with mode C, then you are a HXA/A." 

*** An excellent explanation! The HXA, HXB and HXC are ICAO designations recognized worldwide for a homebuilt aircraft that hasn't had a Type Designation applied for and assigned.



I could keep going but I'm getting tired. The regs aren't that hard to read. Just remember that they are what they read and we can't interpret them to what is convenient, or to match what you are or have been doing. 



--------

John Williamson

Arlington, TX



Kolbra, 912ULS

http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot1



[b]

_________________
Ã´Â¿Ã´

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

"jim" wrote: << When calling tower or Approach in an "N" numbered

aircraft you might use a callsign like "Experimental 3252Y", but what

about an Ultralight? What should I use for a callsign? >>



Jim, and Kolbers -



You are correct: The FAA requires that we incorporate the term

"Experimental" in the callsign of our N-numbered homebuilt aircraft.



But despite the fact that our Kolb 2-seaters are definitely not

ultralights, the perception amongst most other general aviation pilots

is, Kolbs are "ultralights." (As well as all the other similar light

sport aircraft in this category, such as Challengers, Rans', Titans,

etc.)



I don't know how many times I've been flying around my home airport

(doing pattern work, say), then land, and after shutting down, engage in

a conversation with one of the other local pilots that usually begins

like this:  "Wazzat you in that there ultralight that just landed?"



Aarghh!  These guys are idiots!  I feel like saying, "Can't you see

there are TWO seats in my airplane?!  Can't you tell that this 600 pound

machine is more that TWICE the allowable size of any ultralight?"  



I was in the airport pattern once and was following a Skyhawk in for

landing.  So I announced, "Experimental Kolb, niner three delta kilo, on

left downwind, number two, following the Cessna, for landing runway

nine."  In spite of my clear identification of my aircraft, the 172

pilot came right back with, "Roger, I got the ultralight in sight."

(Idiots, I tell ya.)

 

Point is, most non-ultralight and non-light sport aircraft people see

all our Kolbs (and anything else smaller than a Cessna or Piper) as

simply "ultralights."  It seems like all the recent hype about Sport

Pilot and LSA has been completely ignored by most "conventional" GA

pilots.



So, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.  For the sake of clarity, I now

just identify myself as, "Ultralight three delta kilo."  Degrading, yes

- but at least now all the other miscreant pilots know who's talking.

(Sighhh ...)



Dennis Kirby

Mark-III, 912, and disgusted with a few ignorant GA pilots, in

Cedar Crest, NM

do not archive

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Ultralight Callsign

Hi Dennis and All,



When others don't know the rules/regs/recommended practices, (aka idiots), we can't stoop to their level.



Being a pilot is serious and requires us to maintain a professional/correct attitude and presence all the times. If you have to educate the unknowing, by all means do so.



If you operate by the rules nobody can fault you. The ATC folks of the FAA are the only FAA types that are really there "To help Us." Even some of them have to be brought up to speed on the correct phrasology at time.

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Ultralight Callsign

If you are N numbered I would not use the term "Ultralight".  Ultralights are required to avoid N-numbered aircraft.  If they think you're an Ultralight they might expect you to get out of their way.  I would stick with "Experimental xyz" or Experimental Kolb xyz".



I think a glider pilot touched on this briefly, but if you are a special category (glider, amphib, float plane, etc.), that should also be included in your initial call.  E.g., "Amphib experimental 33254".  



 	  Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland. wrote: 	
		  "jim" wrote: << 

When calling tower or . . . For the sake of clarity, I now

just identify myself as, "Ultralight three delta kilo."

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

Don't give in. Years ago in my N-numbered Hummer, I was on short final for 

VJI and some moron in a C182 looked right at me (eye contact) and pulled out 

in front of me, (Part 103 ultralights have to yield to everybody, this was 

an u/l unfriendly field, and he was making a point) forcing me to make a 

stressful go around.



You better believe that I got on the frequency big time.  Memory is not too 

precise anymore, but it was to the effect of -



"Cessna departing Highlands, say your call sign"

"Highlands unicom, do you know the N-number of the Cessna 182 that taxied 

out a minute ago? Because he just pulled out in right in front of 

Experimental 02Papa when I was on short final, and I want to make a report 

about a near mid-air to flight standards."



The silence was deafening - but I bet he didn't do it again.



On the other hand, if I had called myself an ultralight when I was on base 

leg turning final, I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. Moral vectories 

are not anything like legal ones.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)





---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

| On the other hand, if I had called myself an ultralight when I was 

on base

| leg turning final, I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. Moral 

vectories

| are not anything like legal ones.

|

| Richard Pike

Richard:



It is still a matter of good sense and each pilot clearing each other. 

A good pilot does not pull out in front of another "object" , UL, Exp, 

GA, or whatever.  It is a matter of common horse sense.



I'll yield to any other aircraft that wants to push his way in, same 

as automobiles, and rude folks on the sidewalk.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

Right on, John.

When I'm flying and  there's any kind of in-air conflict, my response  

is "you win" and take immediate  evasive action. We can work it out  

later if we're both alive. Works for me.



do not archive

On Feb 15, 2007, at 8:13 PM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



  | On the other hand, if I had called myself an ultralight when I was

 on base

 | leg turning final, I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. Moral

 vectories

 | are not anything like legal ones.

 |

 | Richard Pike

 Richard:



 It is still a matter of good sense and each pilot clearing each other.

 A good pilot does not pull out in front of another "object" , UL, Exp,

 GA, or whatever.  It is a matter of common horse sense.



 I'll yield to any other aircraft that wants to push his way in, same

 as automobiles, and rude folks on the sidewalk.



 john h

 mkIII

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Ultralight Callsign

At 08:00 PM 2/15/07 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



"Cessna departing Highlands, say your call sign"

"Highlands unicom, do you know the N-number of the Cessna 182 that taxied 

out a minute ago? Because he just pulled out in right in front of 

Experimental 02Papa when I was on short final, and I want to make a report 

about a near mid-air to flight standards."



The silence was deafening - but I bet he didn't do it again.



On the other hand, if I had called myself an ultralight when I was on base 

leg turning final, I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. Moral vectories 

are not anything like legal ones.




	


Richard,



My interpretation has been that all of these rules between aircraft and 

ultralight vehicles apply while both are in the air.  If I am in the pattern 

and some one calls in with intent to land, I go spend a few minutes out of 

the way.  But if I am on final and some one starts to taxi out, I do not 

break off.  If they don't or appear not to see me, I go around.  Most get 

stopped just at the edge of the runway.  I land just beyond them and turn 

off and taxi by them on the grass so that I don't hold them up by landing at 

mid field and wait at a turn around.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

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