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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: Empennage

Interesting thread.  I haven't seen my FG parts ..... yet ...... but I see no difference between learning to dimple/deburr, rivet, solder, bend tubing accurately, paint, or any other construction activity and learning to do fiberglas work.  I fail to see the problem, I guess.  Well, I see a small problem in that it's time consuming and a fairly dirty (dusty) task, but if you wanted to fly so soon, you'd have certificated spam can with it's inherent drawbacks.  And you won't have learned a thing.  I have lots of FG experience (far more than I want) and pr4obably won't learn much ..... but I'll do it anyway.  I find fitting FG parts infinitely easier than trying to fit poorly made aluminum or steel parts.  However, there shouldn't be ANY poorly made parts ..... and Van should be troubled about purchasing and shipping poorly made parts.  The cabin top manufacturer may not take as much pride in the interior finish as he does on the exterior (or may not care about either side!!!) because it'll be covered by interior or finish sanded for paint.  What I read as part of this thread ..... about gobs of epoxy without any glass cloth or voids between layers is unacceptable, in my mind, and is just poor workmanship on the part of the manufacturer.  Thoughts of MY FG parts coming to me like that just don't give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

 Linn

 do not archive

 

 Mike Lauritsen - Work wrote:

 [quote]      

 I would be interested.  I stand firmly behind the word and spirit of the 51% rule.  However I love aluminum and hate the glass.  I am building a slow build kit (read very very slow) so if I could buy a completed lid and door system that was ready to rivet on I would jump on it and I would still be in the 51%.  Same with cowl, pants, fairings...  If it could be done to the point of super quality work primed and ready to paint it would be worth the money for me, after all what did I save on the QB aluminum parts? 

   

 Mike

   

  

   

   [quote]               

 --

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: Empennage

Thanks for the photos.  Obviously we are all so lucky to have the resources 

to build planes. Of course many just buy them and some buy a few of them.



The house looks great and that foundation look awesome aswell.



Oh, nice family also. You too have your plate full.



John g

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RE: Empennage

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:08:21 -0600






>need some fuel for the brain-motivation, chemical, spiritual or  

>emotional. EEEHHHHH!

>MAybe need a break, maybe a trip to Hawaii would be good.

>



We took a trip to Hawaii last April.  Careful, it eats into the plane  

budget very fast!



-Sean #40303 (Kit still in storage waiting on new factory completion)



New Plane Factory Pics... <http://www.flickr.com/photos/stephensville/ 

sets/72157594379221777/>



DO NOT ARCHIVE

owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: Empennage

Thanks for the advice Werner.  I actually had no intention of using aluminum rivets on the graphite.  That's not a show stopper though, we can use steel  rivets, better yet, titanium ones if they are available or maybe do something really different and bond it in place.  It will probably have a higher joint strength than the current pop riveted one.

  

   I have already done a lot of work on my cabin top so I am not in the market for another one just trying to answer the question John asked.

  

 Niko

40188



 ---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: Empennage

If we follow Brent Regan's philosophy on the continued need for secrecy

of the owners of Pinpoint Inertia and the D2 controversy, you would

never know who makes what your dollars go for.  Using Dave Hertner's

philosophy you will know and will not be required to fund 100% before

production.  You will have recourse upon receipt if it is not exactly

what you contracted for.



 



Based on this company's record, before the order is fulfilled, I would

think they would let the whole world know.  Knowledge can be a good

thing.  If VAN was listening, they would immediately implement a QC of

parts before shipment and maybe a committee of builders to be the final

review of what is slipping out the door.



 



The marketplace is always the best place for a resolution.  There are

still 700 builders yet to struggle with these unique areas which beckon

an improvement.



 



Just doing some market research before the mold building process begins.

It would be another Oregon company.  That may or may not be a good thing

but we still have no Sales Tax.  If you like Pilipino workmanship it can

be made over there and imported back to Oregon.  It would have to be

unmistakably 51% compliant to the new rules when adopted next month.



 



John Cox 

#40600 



 



Do not Archive



________________________________



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of

cloudvalley(at)comcast.net

Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:57 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: RE: Empennage



 



Hello,



My wife and I would be interested in this better fiberglass canopy and

cowl. We would like to know how much additional cost there  would be,

and who manufactures them. We are not nearly at that point yet, but  we

want to keep infomed. Just finished  our empennage



Brian and Ruth Preston



#40666



 



	-------------- Original message -------------- 

	From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> 



	My question remains unanswered.  How many builders would be

interested and how much might they pay for an improved canopy with door

fitment complete which meets the current FAA 51% rule?  Carbon fiber,

lighter weight, roll bars included, overhead air plenum, improved

hinges, improved locks with fitment and alignment up to 21 century QC

standards.



	 



	This would like remain predicated on VANS continuing to do the

right thing by crediting builders who find the composite components not

up to the Builder's QC standard.  We are the builders.  I understand

that $700 is the customary rebate for those going with a Wholly Cowl.



	 



	John Cox 

	#40600 



	

________________________________

	From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel

R.

	Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:10 AM

	To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

	Subject: RE: RE: Empennage



	 



	That is because it is not offered through Vans. The level of

completion they build it to would not meet the US requirements for 51%,

so I only provide this link for informational purposes and you can do

with it what you want to....



	http://www.bonanzametalcrafters.com/index.htm contact them for a

price list and options available.



	Dan



	N289DT



	 



	

________________________________

	From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of W. Curtis

	Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:37 PM

	To: RV10-List(at)matronics.com

	Subject: RE: Empennage



	>They do, and it is $85k, goto the website for the Vans QB

builders and

	>they have it listed for purchase. Do not know how you would get

it

	>certified here though.

	>Dan 

	>

	Dan,

	

	"They" who and to which website are your referring? I see no

mention of this $85K on Van's (?) website.

	William Curtis -SB about to fit lid

	http://nerv10.com/ 



	 

	 

	h

	

ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Empennage

$2K would be a bargain! a 14" composite spinner is $1k, the James Cowl 

is $1200 and the plenum is $475 (add shipping to all of those $'s). Add 

the cost of the Carbon fiber ($$) and I think you would expect to pay 

more like $4k + for that package.



Deems Davis # 406

Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )

http://deemsrv10.com/



Paul Grimstad wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   John

  

  The spinner, cowling and plenum, again nicely crafted and designed 

 with improved air handling intake and oversized easy to open dip stick 

 access should fetch just North of $2K. 

  



*

*

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: Empennage

My empennage kit is currently someplace between Omaha and Chicago, so I haven't really even thought about this yet.  However, Niko's logic seems to be in line with how I might view the situation.



bob



[quote] 

 From: Niko <owl40188(at)yahoo.com>

 Date: 2007/01/15 Mon AM 11:36:26 EST

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RE: Empennage

 

 Hi John,

  I haven't thought about this much, however, for a considerably lighter graphite canopy thats "almost ready to rivet in place" with an overhead similar to what Accuracy Avionics provides here is where how much I would be willing to part with.

 - at 1K to 2K above Vans rebate it would be a great deal and a no brainer for me.

 - at 3K to 4K above Vans rebate I would have to think about it.  Depends on how much lighter, and how good the fit is.

 - at 5K above Vans rebate it would a bit expensive to justify.

 Niko

 40188

 

 ---

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

mike(at)cleavelandtool.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: Empennage

I wanted to make clear that I am not complaining about the stock fiberglass parts.  I just see others experiences and the time they spend with the parts.  I have messed with the glass just enough to know that I really don't like working with it, and don't want to spend my time there.  I don't want the kit price to go up so that the stock parts get better.  I am positive from my 15 years in the market that working with it is well within the realm of the average builder.  In my situation I would just like to see an after market solution to fill a small part of the market that would like a 'quick build' fiberglass kit. 



Mike

On 1/15/07, Mike Lauritsen - Work <mike(at)cleavelandtool.com (mike(at)cleavelandtool.com)> wrote:[quote] 

I would be interested.  I stand firmly behind the word and spirit of the 51% rule.  However I love aluminum and hate the glass.  I am building a slow build kit (read very very slow) so if I could buy a completed lid and door system that was ready to rivet on I would jump on it and I would still be in the 51%.  Same with cowl, pants, fairings...  If it could be done to the point of super quality work primed and ready to paint it would be worth the money for me, after all what did I save on the QB aluminum parts? 



Mike





[b]

cloudvalley(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: Empennage

Hello,

  If the stock parts of FG are as bad as I am hearing, I would complain. The kit costs a lot of money, and there is a lot of time involved in building it. I would like to see more QC if  workmanship is the issue with the FG. I hope VANs gets this resolved. I have not bought the main part of the kit yet; I was told that the fiberglass is easy by VANs. I hope that turns out to be true,

 Brian and Ruth

 #40666

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Mike Lauritsen - Work" <mike(at)cleavelandtool.com> 

I wanted to make clear that I am not complaining about the stock fiberglass parts.  I just see others experiences and the time they spend with the parts.  I have messed with the glass just enough to know that I really don't like working with it, and don't want to spend my time there.  I don't want the kit price to go up so that the stock parts get better.  I am positive from my 15 years in the market that working with it is well within the realm of the average builder.  In my situation I would just like to see an after market solution to fill a small part of the market that would like a 'quick build' fiberglass kit. 



Mike

 On 1/15/07, Mike Lauritsen - Work <mike(at)cleavelandtool.com (mike(at)cleavelandtool.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    

I would be interested.  I stand firmly behind the word and spirit of the 51% rule.  However I love aluminum and hate the glass.  I am building a slow build kit (read very very slow) so if I could buy a completed lid and door system that was ready to rivet on I would jump on it and I would still be in the 51%.  Same with cowl, pants, fairings...  If it could be done to the point of super quality work primed and ready to paint it would be worth the money for me, after all what did I save on the QB aluminum parts? 



Mike







	
[b]

mike(at)cleavelandtool.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: Empennage

Again 'bad' is a relative term.  In 1988 I remember Buzz cutting each wingtip on the -4 down the chord line, then in half again, and glassing them back together to get them to fit right.  Compared to that the new stuff is 'good'.  But the whole kit was around $6000 then too.  So do you want the kit cost to go up to get better parts or do you want to put in the work?  I don't think that it should be a mandatory change for everyone, but rather an after market offering if there is someone willing to provide it. 



On 1/15/07, cloudvalley(at)comcast.net (cloudvalley(at)comcast.net) <cloudvalley(at)comcast.net (cloudvalley(at)comcast.net) > wrote:[quote] Hello,

  If the stock parts of FG are as bad as I am hearing, I would complain. The kit costs a lot of money, and there is a lot of time involved in building it. I would like to see more QC if  workmanship is the issue with the FG. I hope VANs gets this resolved. I have not bought the main part of the kit yet; I was told that the fiberglass is easy by VANs. I hope that turns out to be true, 

 Brian and Ruth

 #40666

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  -------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Mike Lauritsen - Work" < mike(at)cleavelandtool.com (mike(at)cleavelandtool.com)> 

I wanted to make clear that I am not complaining about the stock fiberglass parts.  I just see others experiences and the time they spend with the parts.  I have messed with the glass just enough to know that I really don't like working with it, and don't want to spend my time there.  I don't want the kit price to go up so that the stock parts get better.  I am positive from my 15 years in the market that working with it is well within the realm of the average builder.  In my situation I would just like to see an after market solution to fill a small part of the market that would like a 'quick build' fiberglass kit.  



Mike

 On 1/15/07, Mike Lauritsen - Work <mike(at)cleavelandtool.com  (mike(at)cleavelandtool.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    

I would be interested.  I stand firmly behind the word and spirit of the 51% rule.  However I love aluminum and hate the glass.  I am building a slow build kit (read very very slow) so if I could buy a completed lid and door system that was ready to rivet on I would jump on it and I would still be in the 51%.  Same with cowl, pants, fairings...  If it could be done to the point of super quality work primed and ready to paint it would be worth the money for me, after all what did I save on the QB aluminum parts?  



Mike







	
	
  

 	  Quote: 	
		  [b]  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com 	


-- 

Mike Lauritsen

Cleaveland Aircraft Tool

515-432-6794

www.cleavelandtool.com  [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: Empennage

Mike your perspective is a fresh and as objective a view as anyone could find in this industry.  At a point, many builders might opt out of the process as the QB prices climb.  This would be good for no one.  Clearly, there are builders who will willingly convert money for time saved. There are several factors at work in the market research.  How in the world did so many builders throw money at products without knowing who was getting the money and if the product would ever be shipped?  The second is how can a great company let products which could clearly be improved, remain somewhat inferior and prone to premature failure?  Cracks in ribs and exposure of matrix material does not make for an acceptable product mix.  A pattern which beckons for improvement, this then causes market corrections in both Direction and Velocity.  Simply the Facts.  

   

I would bet most of the builders did not ever question the D2 relationship as it bloomed into its current configuration.  I lusted after the robust features of EFIS in my own kit. Most supporters are those who got their products. Most detractors are those who are holding a partially empty bag. I would also bet that most builders are not even aware of how many canopies have been returned and replaced to correct defects of either manufacture or shipping.  These are all good points to share in an open and free flowing forum.  Now, If I lived across the great pond…. My hearing would be even more attuned during these times of atmospheric static.  Anyone heard of how many RV-10 kits have gone to South Africa?  

   

Your work at providing products and tools has made my build experience more enjoyable. Thank you.  

   

Market forces help shape both quality, price and quantity. Why even the non creditable, mandated Oregon Aero seat has improvements to the latch mechanism from outside the company. It has been heartening to see the improvements in the James composite products and how many builders are opting for the “improved over factory” product.  I too support 51% rules and oppose production shops that flaunt their violation in pursuit of a buck.  I will continue to be patient that the wolves guarding the hen house have all of us egg layers best interests at heart.  

   

Just imagine OSHkosh Control acknowledging a formation of 700+ RV-10s off Warbird Island coming in for a mass landing at OSH some sunny afternoon in July.  

     

John Cox 

 #600   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Lauritsen - Work

 Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 11:22 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RE: Empennage  

  

   

I wanted to make clear that I am not complaining about the stock fiberglass parts.  I just see others experiences and the time they spend with the parts.  I have messed with the glass just enough to know that I really don't like working with it, and don't want to spend my time there.  I don't want the kit price to go up so that the stock parts get better.  I am positive from my 15 years in the market that working with it is well within the realm of the average builder.  In my situation I would just like to see an after market solution to fill a small part of the market that would like a 'quick build' fiberglass kit. 

 

 Mike

 

     

On 1/15/07, Mike Lauritsen - Work <mike(at)cleavelandtool.com (mike(at)cleavelandtool.com)> wrote:      



 I would be interested.  I stand firmly behind the word and spirit of the 51% rule.  However I love aluminum and hate the glass.  I am building a slow build kit (read very very slow) so if I could buy a completed lid and door system that was ready to rivet on I would jump on it and I would still be in the 51%.  Same with cowl, pants, fairings...  If it could be done to the point of super quality work primed and ready to paint it would be worth the money for me, after all what did I save on the QB aluminum parts? 

 

 Mike

 

   

  

  

  [quote]   [b]

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: Empennage

Hi Niko,

 

 no intention of blaming you ;O) Carbon fiber is lightweight but needs to be constructed in an intelligent way, I did in my Glastar replace the seat pans with a Carbon/Kevlar mix, as the carbon has a low strength perpendicular to the fibers. We had just a workshop on corrosion, had a cut out piece of a F-5E spar in the hand, 7075 Alum with Titan rivets, some of the Alum. started to develop corrosion inside the 7075 spar (ok after 30 years so you might be save) but stainless steel rivet might do it. 

 

 What I've wanted to point out is, that if somebody develops a new fiberglass top he needs to know the load on the part and construct it accordingly. Doing a new cowling is one thing (as it is not a structural part) but the cabin top is a structural part and needs to be done accordingly.

 

 Anyway just my 2 cents, keep on building and fly this beautiful plane, my last plane took 2554hrs to complete some of it was fiberglass work.

 

 br Werner

 

 Niko wrote: [quote]         Thanks for the advice Werner.  I actually had no intention of using aluminum rivets on the graphite.  That's not a show stopper though, we can use steel  rivets, better yet, titanium ones if they are available or maybe do something really different and bond it in place.  It will probably have a higher joint strength than the current pop riveted one.

    

     I have already done a lot of work on my cabin top so I am not in the market for another one just trying to answer the question John asked.

    

   Niko

 40188

   

   ---

bldgrv10450(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: Empennage

Deems

I know your correct, but my estimating knowledge is a limited and John was 

looking for builder input. When buying or bidding the rules of poker apply 

and I guard my hand. We will know the value when we see the goods. Quality 

will always sell.

Paul

450

---

jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: Empennage

John,

 Sounds great. At the  right price we would take one for our next Rv-10.

  

 John

  

 do not  archive



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W.  Cox

Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:38 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: RE:  Empennage

 

  

My question remains  unanswered.  How many builders would be interested and how much might they  pay for an improved canopy with door fitment complete which meets the current  FAA 51% rule?  Carbon fiber, lighter weight, roll bars included, overhead  air plenum, improved hinges, improved locks with fitment and alignment up to 21  century QC standards. 

  

This would like remain  predicated on VANS continuing to do the right thing by crediting builders who  find the composite components not up to the Builder’s QC standard.  We are  the builders.  I understand that $700 is the customary rebate for those  going with a Wholly Cowl. 

   

John  Cox  

#40600  

  



 

  

--

 1/15/2007

     [quote][b]

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: Empennage

I would be very interested.

David Maib

#40559



On Jan 15, 2007, at 9:38 AM, John W. Cox wrote:



My question remains unanswered.  How many builders would be interested and how much might they pay for an improved canopy with door fitment complete which meets the current FAA 51% rule?  Carbon fiber, lighter weight, roll bars included, overhead air plenum, improved hinges, improved locks with fitment and alignment up to 21 century QC standards. 



This would like remain predicated on VANS continuing to do the right thing by crediting builders who find the composite components not up to the Builder’s QC standard.  We are the builders.  I understand that $700 is the customary rebate for those going with a Wholly Cowl. 



John Cox #40600

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:10 AMTo: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: RE: RE: Empennage

 



That is because it is not offered through Vans. The level of completion they build it to would not meet the US requirements for 51%, so I only provide this link for informational purposes and you can do with it what you want to....

http://www.bonanzametalcrafters.com/index.htm contact them for a price list and options available.

Dan

N289DT 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of W. CurtisSent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:37 PMTo: RV10-List(at)matronics.com (RV10-List(at)matronics.com)Subject: RE: Empennage

 	  Quote: 	
		  They do, and it is $85k, goto the website for the Vans QB builders and>they have it listed for purchase. Do not know how you would get it>certified here though.>Dan >Dan,"They" who and to which website are your referring? I see no mention of this $85K on Van's (?) website.William Curtis -SB about to fit lidhttp://nerv10.com/ 	  Quote: 	
		    href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com     	
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 [quote][b]

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

jchang10

Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: Empennage

Also, expect to add potentially another several hundred dollars for shipping

such a large bulky item. However, I would be interested in finding out more!



Jae

http://www.jline.com/rv10

Do not archive






$2K would be a bargain! a 14" composite spinner is $1k, the James Cowl is $1200

and the plenum is $475 (add shipping to all of those $'s). Add the cost of the

Carbon fiber ($$) and I think you would expect to pay more like $4k + for that

package.

_________________
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011

owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: Empennage

Hi Werner

  

 I got the impression that you believe  I am designing a new graphite Cabin Cover I can assure you that I am currently not doing this.  A non-optimized graphite design that replaces a fiberglass one is actually fairly easy.  Take graphite/epoxy fabric laying it up in the 0/90 and +45/-45 directions and match the fiberglass thickness.  If in doubt test it just like Vans did but it should come out much stronger.  What Van's did to test it is turn a weighted fuselage upside down to ensure the top won't collapse if the aircraft turns upside down.   Graphite has a density of approximately 0.06 lb/in^3 whereas glass is approximately 0.08 lb/in^3.  Now thats an easy approximately 25 % weight savings and if one used a decent graphite cloth it would be much stronger at the same time than the fiberglass one.   Thats the reason fiberglass  doesn't get used for structural members in military or large commercial airplanes.  Its heavy and relatively weak when compared to graphite.  The only place it gets used is in non-structural fairings for two reasons its more damage tolerant than graphite and its much cheaper.  As far as directions perpendicular to the fibers I think you might mean fabric vs tape. Neither graphite, fiberglass or Kevlar is very strong in a direction where you dont have fibers.  Kevlar is great for impact resistance which is why its used in bullet proof vest.  For the layman, use an equal number of 0 and 45 degree fabric layers.  Yes this does mean that all those 400K+  general aviation airplanes are low tech as far as structure goes.  In fact aluminum is a better material than fiberglass is you are looking performance.  There aren't any fiberglass military fighters are out there at least not that i am aware.  Has  someone noticed that the tailcone skin is maybe 0.032 thick aluminum where as the fiberglass that mates to it has about 1/8 inch thick flange?  Hmm,  it doesn't look like that fiberglass is very strong.    Now if you went with an optimized design you can probably cut the Cabin Top weight in half and for me that would be worth paying a bit for.  Now I might be persuaded to design it if someone is willing to build it.

  

 By the way the Cabin Top is not as significant a structural member during flight as one might think.  Most of the  material is on the top which ends in the windshield.  So if it starts getting loaded from aft fuselage bending where is the load going to go?  In to the windshield?  Or jump across the door cutouts?  And its attached on the back and sides by thin hollow aluminum cylinders.  Yes these are not considered to be structural cylinders.  The major structural members at the top are the longerons which run the full length of the fuselage and end at the firewall where the engine loads come in although I have to say that the cabin top does stiffen the structure torsionally again a task that may be handled much better with a graphite which is going to be 2 to 3 times stiffer for the same thickness.  The side skins carry most of the  shear loads which are transferred to the main spar of the wing and get balanced by the lift the wing is producing and they are very important and so is the lower skin.  Of course this doesn't mean that the rest of the structure isn't doing anything its all working its just not the major load carrying structure.

  

 The bottom line is if you are looking for performace, fiberglass is a poor choice for material to use in an aircraft.  If you are looking for low cost than its great.   And lastly titanium with graphite and aluminum is the standard for high performance applications and it works in high load low weight applications.

  

 A general note for all the readers here, I really don't know what I am talking about so please do not act on my words and design anything without thoroughly researching it . 

  

 Do not archive

  

 Niko

 40188

 ---

DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: Empennage

What is a "Wholly cowl?"  Holy  cow!

  

 Dave Leikam

 40496

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: Empennage

John, here's another 2 cents from a QB builder:



Like Mike L., I strongly support the letter and spirit of the 51%  

rule.  I have been told very unofficially  that the 51% is calculated  

by counting operations, not estimating hours spent. If that is so,  

then it seems that a third party cabin top could be sold that would  

have no effect on the 51% calculation, even if the quality were to be  

sharply improved.



Based on the quality of my wing and tail feather tips (my VS tip was  

useless - they sent a better one right away) and the buzz here about  

the cabin top, I'd bet that better quality could be a strong selling  

point for a third party cabin top and might be achieved at a  

"reasonable" price. I do think that there is a market in the "several  

thousand dollar" range



For me to purchase a third party unit:

First: I would have to be convinced that structural integrity would  

not be compromised.

Second: weight could not increase;  if weight were to decrease, a  

higher price would be tolerated. The law of diminishing returns (non- 

linear price/ weight relationship) would clearly apply. I don't think  

that more than a few pounds decrease would be possible, but who knows?

Finally, the third-party top would have to incorporate some  

improvements such as a stronger belt anchor, a more robust door hinge  

setup, and perhaps a slicker door closure system in addition to  

higher perceived quality.



  I'd guess than other people who would be willing to pay a premium  

might also want those improvements, and would be far more likely to  

pay the additional cost if it were to result in a "better" plane.

On Jan 13, 2007, at 3:25 PM, John W. Cox wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>



 If there was such a product, and VAN would credit builders the cost of

 the canopy & doors, just how much more would a QB builder offer to pay

 for such an offering?

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: Empennage

I would be interested, but don’t now how much more it would be worth.  I think I would have to see it first and see how it works before deciding.  I would not be as interested in the carbon fiber as in simply a better fit and the air plenum.  That would be the biggest deal for me.  

   

Do not archive.  

     

Jesse Saint  

Saint Aviation, Inc.  

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)  

www.saintaviation.com  

Cell: 352-427-0285  

Fax: 815-377-3694  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox

 Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:38 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: Empennage  

  

   

My question remains unanswered.  How many builders would be interested and how much might they pay for an improved canopy with door fitment complete which meets the current FAA 51% rule?  Carbon fiber, lighter weight, roll bars included, overhead air plenum, improved hinges, improved locks with fitment and alignment up to 21 century QC standards.  

   

This would like remain predicated on VANS continuing to do the right thing by crediting builders who find the composite components not up to the Builder’s QC standard.  We are the builders.  I understand that $700 is the customary rebate for those going with a Wholly Cowl.  

     

John Cox 

 #40600   

          

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.

 Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:10 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: Empennage  

  

   

That is because it is not offered through Vans. The level of completion they build it to would not meet the US requirements for 51%, so I only provide this link for informational purposes and you can do with it what you want to....  

http://www.bonanzametalcrafters.com/index.htm contact them for a price list and options available.  

Dan  

N289DT  

         

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of W. Curtis

 Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:37 PM

 To: RV10-List(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Empennage  

 	  Quote: 	
		  They do, and it is $85k, goto the website for the Vans QB builders and

 >they have it listed for purchase. Do not know how you would get it
	


 >certified here though.

 >Dan 

 >

 Dan,

 

 "They" who and to which website are your referring? I see no mention of this $85K on Van's (?) website.

 William Curtis -SB about to fit lid

 http://nerv10.com/    	  Quote: 	
		    href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com   http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com    	


       [quote][b]

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