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Eggenfellner
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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

How many of those cars on the rack are up there for engine repair? Very

few these days, it is the bolt on accessories and the externals that

need work. Which is what I have been saying is the week point in all of

our discussions, it is the PSRU, or the cooling system, or the fuel

delivery system that has caused issues, not the engine itself.

Just additional comments.

Dan 



--

Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

My friend has an Egg on his RV-9 and his latest oil analyzes of his engine and PSRU came back with excessive wear on the PSRU.  He had the second generation PSRU from Jan and it is now being swapped out after 500 hours because one of the bearings in it were making metal.  He is now waiting to get the third generation PSRU with the 2.02 gear ratio from Jan.  

	At the rate that Jan keeps changing his components, it is going to be very hard for anyone to accumulate enough hours on a particular component to see if it will stand the test of time.

Thank You

Ray Doerr

N519RV(40250)  Former Jan customer, but never again.



--

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Unless you will be certain of always being able

 to get unleaded mogas at airports you land at, your O2 sensor will die

 on the first load of 100LL. 


	


    It is recommended to run Decalin TCP additive

(http://www.decalinchemicals.com/) when running 100LL to handle the lead

content in the Subaru, although they still recommend checking and

cleaning the O2 sensor at frequent intervals when using 100LL (20

hours).  In my Lyc O320, I had lead buildup problems on the valves from

using 100LL (the engine was designed to run on the old 80 octane avgas),

but since using Decalin TCP I have had no further troubles with lead in

my Lyc.  For me at least, I have to use TCP for using 100LL in my Lyc or

the Egg Subaru (if I get one) to help maintain a healthy engine.



Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   "all these problems" just seems so strange to hear.  When you count

 how many engines are out there, "all these" seems to be similar

 to saying "tons of U.S. Airline passenger deaths in the past 2 years"...

 just another sensationalist term.  As a percentage of engines

 out there, it's actually amazing that if you eliminate pilot error,

 esp. due to fuel mismanagement, that you're left with an incredibly

 small pool of accidents to analyze.


	


    I suppose you could attribute to "pilot error" some of the problems

that Lycs have if the pilot does not fly the airplane frequently, thus

causing the engine issues that in turn cause the top end work to be done

(noting the previous posts on the topic).  Regardless of the reasons,

there still seems to be a lot of top end work that is necessary to

maintain a typical Lycoming to TBO in your average privately owned GA

aircraft, solely based on my own opinion and personal observations,

which may not represent reality as a whole. 



    Perhaps the term "reliable" is somewhat ambigious.  To me, it means

being able to run to the advertised TBO without doing any major work to

the engine.  Doing top end work part way through the TBO means the

engine did not make it all the way to TBO without the extra work, thus

reducing its "reliability" in my eyes.



    What is boils down to from my personal, limited experience is that I

have not seen any evidence to show that a Lycoming is any MORE reliable

than a Subaru engine, so it puzzles me when people make claims that they

are.  I'm just hoping to see some solid evidence from beyond my own

limited experience that will help me to make a well educated engine

decision.  It is difficult to weed through all the opinions and my own

personal experiences and just look at facts, especially since this is a

highly contentious topic.  This has been an excellent discussion, and I

appreciate the polite and constructive conversation that we have had

thus far about the topic.



-Dj

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 	My friend has an Egg on his RV-9 and his latest oil analyzes of his engine and PSRU came back with excessive wear on the PSRU.  He had the second generation PSRU from Jan and it is now being swapped out after 500 hours because one of the bearings in it were making metal.  He is now waiting to get the third generation PSRU with the 2.02 gear ratio from Jan.  

 	At the rate that Jan keeps changing his components, it is going to be very hard for anyone to accumulate enough hours on a particular component to see if it will stand the test of time.

   


	


    Ray, this is excellent information, and I greatly appreciate you

sharing this.  The PSRU is one of the potentially questionably parts of

the engine package in my eyes, and reports like yours help in the

decision making process.  I'm hoping there is a lot more history on the

PSRU before I have to make an engine decision.



    Did Jan give any potential reason as to why the bearings are making

metal?  I wonder if there is an "overhaul" process that can be done on a

PSRU versus buying a whole new one.  If the cost were reasonable, a 500

hour "top end" inspection and perhaps overhaul on the PSRU might be an

acceptable option, similar to what we do with magnetos. 



-Dj

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: Eggenfellner

Man, this is the next best thing to perpetual motion.  It just keeps going 

and going and going>>>>



I wish I didn't delete all the Eggenfellner emails today..I would have 

counted them for a record to see if the next war went as long.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Eggenfellner

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:14:00 -0800 (GMT-08:00)






I can see the headlines now....



RV-10 Matronics list members charged today in an incident where they 

severely beat to death an already dead horse......  



I'll bet this topic would not have gone on so long if you had to type 

"Eggenfellner" each time you replyed!!



How bout them Broncos!!!!



Rick S.

40185



do not archive



PS-Barrett's XIO-540 due to arrive around the first of March

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: Eggenfellner

Thanks Bobby!  I haven't been keeping up with what Tracy's into!

Linn



do not archive

Bobby J. Hughes wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Linn,



Tracy (Rotary Aviation) is now making a EFI controller for the Lyc. If

it is like the ones for the rotary it can be manually leaned and is a

dual unit. 



Bobby

40116 

(Rotary with custom everything)

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: Eggenfellner

Just three points. TCP is good for reducing lead deposits on

plugs/valves. It won't do anything for O2 sensor, and no, you can't

clean lead from the sensor, as it binds with the sensor material.

Other deposits to some degree can be burned off, and modern O2 sensors

are heated internally to reduce deposit build up, but still lead will

kill them, and you are still looking at $50-100 every time you have to

replace one, plus labor. I'd call the Decalin recommendation to clean

an O2 sensor every 20 hours as fruitless and a lot of work that isn't

likely to save it.



Mogas DOES soften PRC, and if you use it, your fuel tanks will

eventually leak and will have to be resealed.



Cylinder top end work....mostly a function of how hot you run the

cylinders. Keep them below 400CHT, change your oil regularly and fly

regularly, and you won't need top end work. I have over 600 hours

behind 200hp Lyc. with no top end work since I've owned it.

Also keep in mind, with the RV-10 you are talking 200mph aircraft.

1000 hours of flying is 200,000 miles. 2000 hours is 400,000 miles.

Please advise how many auto engines go that far with no top end work.

Not that long ago Japanese engines routinely needed head gasket

replacement/head resurfacing. Not to mention virtually all of the

overhead cam engines need timing belt replacement at 60-90,000 miles.



On 12/5/06, Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		      It is recommended to run Decalin TCP additive

 (http://www.decalinchemicals.com/) when running 100LL to handle the lead

 content in the Subaru, although they still recommend checking and

 cleaning the O2 sensor at frequent intervals when using 100LL (20

 hours).  In my Lyc O320, I had lead buildup problems on the valves from

 using 100LL (the engine was designed to run on the old 80 octane avgas),

 but since using Decalin TCP I have had no further troubles with lead in

 my Lyc.  For me at least, I have to use TCP for using 100LL in my Lyc or

 the Egg Subaru (if I get one) to help maintain a healthy engine.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		      I suppose you could attribute to "pilot error" some of the problems

 that Lycs have if the pilot does not fly the airplane frequently, thus

 causing the engine issues that in turn cause the top end work to be done

 (noting the previous posts on the topic).  Regardless of the reasons,

 there still seems to be a lot of top end work that is necessary to

 maintain a typical Lycoming to TBO in your average privately owned GA

 aircraft, solely based on my own opinion and personal observations,

 which may not represent reality as a whole.



    Perhaps the term "reliable" is somewhat ambigious.  To me, it means

 being able to run to the advertised TBO without doing any major work to

 the engine.  Doing top end work part way through the TBO means the

 engine did not make it all the way to TBO without the extra work, thus

 reducing its "reliability" in my eyes.

ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject: Eggenfellner

Amen.   

My two words on this subject - MOVE ON.   

--

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: Eggenfellner

All I want for Christmas is to have this subject go away.  How many ways can 

you beat a dead horse?



Mark (N410MR)





 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Eggenfellner

Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:48:22 -0600






Be forewarned, this is in a HUMOROUS tone....



I guess by that rationality, the Subies have an extrordinary safety

record in flight in the RV-10 installations.  I've never once

heard of someone having an off-airport landing in their Subie

powered RV-10 before.



"all these problems" just seems so strange to hear.  When you count

how many engines are out there, "all these" seems to be similar

to saying "tons of U.S. Airline passenger deaths in the past 2 years"...

just another sensationalist term.  As a percentage of engines

out there, it's actually amazing that if you eliminate pilot error,

esp. due to fuel mismanagement, that you're left with an incredibly

small pool of accidents to analyze.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Dj Merrill wrote:

>

>

>Hi Rhonda,

>     No real argument as to why the problems happen, I just find it

>interesting (and somewhat amusing) that one of the strong arguments that

>people use for choosing a Lycoming is the claimed "reliability", but yet

>there are all these problems that seem to be occuring which indicates to

>a neophyte like myself that they really aren't all that reliable after

>all.

>

>     If the Subaru engine is treated the same way as the Lyc, I'm not

>convinced that we will see any more problems with it than the Lyc has,

>but that is just my own opinion with no actual data to back it up.  The

>more brave souls that gather the Subaru data for us, the better to make

>my decision down the road...  

>

>-Dj

>






	


_________________________________________________________________

View Athlete’s Collections with Live Search 

http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01

kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: Eggenfellner

Hmmmm



Mark, be careful what you ask for, .....



Anyway, as the originator of this thread, what I wanted was info. I readily

admit that I *knew* little about the issues related to engine selection. As

a new builder that has a multitude of choices & decisions looming in the

future, this is one I wanted to start considering sooner rather than later.



I do say many, many thanks to all who commented. I have a much better

appreciation of the factors / decision points / considerations involved. 



Cheers



Les Kearney

RV10 # 40643 - Lost in the empennage



--

bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: Eggenfellner

And the Bruins.  

Bob K



--

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: Eggenfellner

Mark Ritter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   All I want for Christmas is to have this subject go away.  How many ways

 can you beat a dead horse?


	


	My apologies, Mark, and I mean no offense, but if this were truly a

dead horse then we would all have a plethora of information with which

to make an engine decision.  There are still many of us that would like

to get as much information about the Subaru option as we can, and I

truly hope that the conversation and the exchange of information never ends.



	I mean no ill towards those that no longer wish to participate in the

conversation, but isn't it a bit unfair to ask those of us that do wish

to share information to stop doing so?  That is sorta the whole point

behind the mailing list...



	Please, if you don't want to join in, then please just delete the

message and let the rest of us try to make sense out of what information

we can find and share with the group.



Thanks for understanding,



-Dj

nandrand(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:10 pm Post subject: Eggenfellner

Hi team.

           I agree with Dj, this is just what the list is about, exchange of 

info'!! A little bit of cut& thrust!!!!  The more knowledgeable list members 

should be more tolerant of us lesser mortals.



            Fly safe   Noel



---

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:13 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

You are right - gather as much (good) information as you can and make a 

decision.  Was just wondering is there a point when you reach information 

overload?



Mark (N410MR)





[quote]From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Eggenfellner

Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 18:02:01 -0700






Hmmmm



Mark, be careful what you ask for, .....



Anyway, as the originator of this thread, what I wanted was info. I readily

admit that I *knew* little about the issues related to engine selection. As

a new builder that has a multitude of choices & decisions looming in the

future, this is one I wanted to start considering sooner rather than later.



I do say many, many thanks to all who commented. I have a much better

appreciation of the factors / decision points / considerations involved.



Cheers



Les Kearney

RV10 # 40643 - Lost in the empennage



--

bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:38 am Post subject: Eggenfellner

Ok now lets talk about rotaries.  What do you think???  ROFLMAO.   O<)))



Bob K 

Do not archive



--

DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject: Eggenfellner

Just kidding!



I just couldn't resist.  O.K. , build on!



Dave

40496

---

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