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rlaird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston
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 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: Dave's accident |
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Robert --
Then, my condolences to his friend, Chris. It's not a happy time for anyone.
-- Robert
On 11/17/06, Robert Mason < masonclan(at)sbcglobal.net (masonclan(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Mason < masonclan(at)sbcglobal.net (masonclan(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Chris Wolf and Mike Maikowski are separate people. They were very close
friends. Mike and Chris were in the process of purchasing my Kolb Mark
3X.
Robert Mason
[b]
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_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com |
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eagle1(at)commspeed.net
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: Dave's accident |
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No, Why would you clime up to 1000 ft Agl shooting touch and goes in the pattern.
George
[quote] ----- Original M
Do not archiveessage -----
From: Robert Laird (rlaird(at)cavediver.com)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: Dave's accident
On 11/17/06, David Downey <planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com (planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com)> wrote: | Quote: | It seems that it would be quite adventuresome to be making pattern turns at relatively high gross weight at 2-300 feet AGL altitude. IF something goes wrong there is no time to react or salvage the situation...
Is that what I am hearing?
|
Maybe I got left out of something somewhere along the lines, but am I the only person who flies the pattern at field altitude+1000 feet? Granted, I'm doing descending turns for base and final, but my turn for final is between 600 and 800 feet.
It certainly doesn't sound like something an experienced Kolb pilot would be doing.
-- Robert
| Quote: |
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
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Date: 11/16/2006
[b]
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dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: Dave's accident |
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because it takes less than a minute and it could save your life... is that
the right answer?
| Quote: | From: "George Thompson" <eagle1(at)commspeed.net>
Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Dave's accident
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:25:26 -0700
No, Why would you clime up to 1000 ft Agl shooting touch and goes in the
pattern.
George
----- Original M
Do not archiveessage -----
From: Robert Laird
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: Dave's accident
On 11/17/06, David Downey <planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
It seems that it would be quite adventuresome to be making pattern
turns at relatively high gross weight at 2-300 feet AGL altitude. IF
something goes wrong there is no time to react or salvage the situation...
Is that what I am hearing?
Maybe I got left out of something somewhere along the lines, but am I
the only person who flies the pattern at field altitude+1000 feet?
Granted, I'm doing descending turns for base and final, but my turn for
final is between 600 and 800 feet.
It certainly doesn't sound like something an experienced Kolb pilot
would be doing.
-- Robert
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11/16/2006
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bill_joe(at)bellsouth.net
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Dave's accident |
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Hey guy's, here is the way I see it. Number one 1000ft AGL is the standard pattern altitude as long as you are in the pattern doing TAG or what ever. You should be 500 ft before turning cross wind and maintain a safe airspeed at all times. There are a lot of accidents that happen in the pattern, sticking to regulations makes all of us safer. And it keeps the GA pilots happy . And remember altitude is good Ins. To have something go wrong at 200 to 300 ft you don't have much time to react.. Fly safe...
Bill Futrell
Do not archive----- Original Message -----
[quote] From: George Thompson (eagle1(at)commspeed.net)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Dave's accident
No, Why would you clime up to 1000 ft Agl shooting touch and goes in the pattern.
George
| Quote: | ----- Original M
Do not archiveessage -----
From: Robert Laird (rlaird(at)cavediver.com)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: Dave's accident
On 11/17/06, David Downey <planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com (planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com)> wrote: | Quote: | It seems that it would be quite adventuresome to be making pattern turns at relatively high gross weight at 2-300 feet AGL altitude. IF something goes wrong there is no time to react or salvage the situation...
Is that what I am hearing?
|
Maybe I got left out of something somewhere along the lines, but am I the only person who flies the pattern at field altitude+1000 feet? Granted, I'm doing descending turns for base and final, but my turn for final is between 600 and 800 feet.
It certainly doesn't sound like something an experienced Kolb pilot would be doing.
-- Robert
| Quote: |
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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Date: 11/16/2006
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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[b]
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rlaird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: Dave's accident |
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On 11/17/06, George Thompson <eagle1(at)commspeed.net (eagle1(at)commspeed.net)> wrote: | Quote: | No, Why would you clime up to 1000 ft Agl shooting touch and goes in the pattern.
|
George -
That's been answered by a couple others here, and it would sound trite to say it was "because that's the way I was taught." However, if an instructor teaches you how to do a particular maneuver, do you always just blow it off? Don't you think there's a good reason why s/he, and every other instructor, teaches that maneuver that way? The reason for that "maneuver" has been addressed, and my instructor addressed it, too, when I was training. But unless I have many years of experience AND good cause to alter the way a maneuver was taught to me, then I'll typically do it that way indefinitely. "Good cause", to me, FYI, does NOT include "convenient" or "faster" or "easier"... all those things stack up and spell "complacent."
I have always tried hard to fly my UL as if it were an N-numbered experimental... in my minds eye, that's how I see it, anyway. Typically, I find I get a lot more respect from ALL pilots when I behave that way.
-- Robert
P.S. Besides, with a climb rate the envy of all my GA neighbors, it's fun to show it off at each touch-n-go! 
[quote][b]
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_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:48 am Post subject: Dave's accident |
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| I have always tried hard to fly my UL as if it were an N-numbered
| experimental... in my minds eye, that's how I see it, anyway.
|
| -- Robert
Robert:
Thought you were flying a MKIII?
john h
mkIII
N101AB
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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jstewart(at)inebraska.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:03 am Post subject: Dave's accident |
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I almost didn't pass my PPL practical test because I turned crosswind at the same point I normally would in my Titan or Challenger, just past the end of the runway. I was flying a C-152 for the practical, and the CFI stressed to me that I don't turn crosswind until I have reached pattern altitude. It didn't matter that it was 90 degrees out, that we could only put 9 gallons of gas in it to avoid going over gross, and that it would take 3~4 miles to get to 1000'. We were going to head straight out until we got there.
With most Kolb's amazing climb, 1000' shouldn't take more than a minute anyway.
J.D. Stewart
UltraFun AirSports, LLC
www.ultrafunairsports.com
[quote] Hey guy's, here is the way I see it. Number one 1000ft AGL is the standard pattern altitude as long as you are in the pattern doing TAG or what ever. You should be 500 ft before turning cross wind and maintain a safe airspeed at all times. There are a lot of accidents that happen in the pattern, sticking to regulations makes all of us safer. And it keeps the GA pilots happy . And remember altitude is good Ins. To have something go wrong at 200 to 300 ft you don't have much time to react.. Fly safe...
Bill Futrell
| Quote: | No, Why would you clime up to 1000 ft Agl shooting touch and goes in the pattern.
George
| Quote: |
On 11/17/06, David Downey <planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com (planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com)> wrote: | Quote: | It seems that it would be quite adventuresome to be making pattern turns at relatively high gross weight at 2-300 feet AGL altitude. IF something goes wrong there is no time to react or salvage the situation...
Is that what I am hearing?
|
Maybe I got left out of something somewhere along the lines, but am I the only person who flies the pattern at field altitude+1000 feet? Granted, I'm doing descending turns for base and final, but my turn for final is between 600 and 800 feet.
It certainly doesn't sound like something an experienced Kolb pilot would be doing.
-- Robert
|
|
[b]
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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: Dave's accident |
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John/All
When I first started flying I flew a Weedhopper, it was a ultralight
because it was capable of being foot launched and landed. Later the FAA got
very liberal and defined ultralights by part 103 which most of us at that
time figured was too heavy, fast etc. When ultralights got popular people
were getting killed. The FAA allowed the use of two place ultralights to
save lives. For a short time people bought these two place airplanes and
used them for training. It has now gotten sooo.... bad that people feel they
have the right to fly anything short of a 172 without a pilots license. The
general public, most pilots and even police officers think these big
airplanes are ultralights. With the final dates for the implementation of
the sport pilot coming up I assume that the FAA is gearing up for a crack
down on all those illegal airplanes. I see a number of our group getting
their licenses and this is a very good thing. If you are one that hasn't
started on your license, well it would have been easer if your took
advantage of the grandfather options but it isn't too late. If you plan to
continue flying with out a license don't complain if you get slammed with a
big penalty. The penalty might include a restriction on a future license.
Also John remember we fly our experimental Kolbs into Oshkosh as ultralights
and land at the "ultralight strip"
I will get off my soapbox and duck behind a fire proof wall to avoid the
flames and yes Do Not Archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
---
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: Dave's accident |
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Rick, I wonder too, how many will continue on the same as usual.
They may find some problems with that approach, some may elect to
drop out of the sport.
That said, the flavor of your neighborhood and/or airport will also
effect your type of flying. Busy airport, adherence is wise and safe.
My strip is quite close to but legal to use near a class C airport so I
fly my pattern 600' agl to avoid problems. Been that way for 35 years.
If you have a 10,000 acre spread in Montana, buy whatever you want
and fly it anyway you want, screw the laws. (as long as you stay near
home)
BB do not archive
On 18, Nov 2006, at 11:38 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
[quote]
<NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
John/All
When I first started flying I flew a Weedhopper, it was a ultralight
because it was capable of being foot launched and landed. Later the
FAA got very liberal and defined ultralights by part 103 which most of
us at that time figured was too heavy, fast etc. When ultralights got
popular people were getting killed. The FAA allowed the use of two
place ultralights to save lives. For a short time people bought these
two place airplanes and used them for training. It has now gotten
sooo.... bad that people feel they have the right to fly anything
short of a 172 without a pilots license. The general public, most
pilots and even police officers think these big airplanes are
ultralights. With the final dates for the implementation of the sport
pilot coming up I assume that the FAA is gearing up for a crack down
on all those illegal airplanes. I see a number of our group getting
their licenses and this is a very good thing. If you are one that
hasn't started on your license, well it would have been easer if your
took advantage of the grandfather options but it isn't too late. If
you plan to continue flying with out a license don't complain if you
get slammed with a big penalty. The penalty might include a
restriction on a future license.
Also John remember we fly our experimental Kolbs into Oshkosh as
ultralights and land at the "ultralight strip"
I will get off my soapbox and duck behind a fire proof wall to avoid
the flames and yes Do Not Archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
---
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: Dave's accident |
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| Also John remember we fly our experimental Kolbs into Oshkosh as
ultralights
| and land at the "ultralight strip"
| Rick Neilsen
Thought it was an airstrip for light planes, ultralights, rotorcraft,
flying bed sheets, trikes, and rag bags.
Rick, you need to explain your statement above.
Folks, don't forget, many of us fly out of cow pastures, back yards,
deserts, desert roads, gravel bars, hay fields, borrow pits, and
parking lots, etc.
I fly in and out of my cow pasture in a routine manner. Usually, the
same procedure each time, except when the wind changes my landing
direction. Does it look like a traffic pattern at an airport.
Probably not in the least. I don't know the first thing about the
airstrip AZ Dave was flying out of, other than an abandoned WWII
field. Probably nothing out there but the old strip and desert.
Doubt if many GA aircraft fly in and out of there, but I may be wrong.
AZ George can enlighten us on the airstrip at Paulden.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with 100 or 200 ft pattern
altitude at Paulden, if it is not an official FAA recognized airport.
Kolbs are more than happy flying at that altitude as they are at 1,000
feet. Kolbs don't stall because of insufficient altitude, but
insufficient airspeed. From the few photos I saw of the area, looked
like a lot of flat high desert to me. I could be wrong though.
Plenty places to do an off field landing, if necessary. I believe
Dave did one a year or so ago and busted his mkIII.
Some of us have flown coast to coast, low level, and I don't mean less
than 10,000 feet.
When I fly in and out of airports, I fly the traffic pattern, usually
not nearly as big as the GA guys. Why, because I don't need to. Many
times I have landed ahead of GA (150, 152, etc.) aircraft that were
flying B-52 type traffic patterns, even though they entered the
traffic pattern long before I did. At my local airport, 08A, I can
fly 3 or 4 Kolb traffic patterns before a 152 flies a single pattern.
Its been a while since I went through primary flight training, but if
I remember correctly (and if I don't, John W will certainly correct
me), I can turn cross wind when I clear the departure end of the
runway, turn down wind when I reach traffic pattern altitude, turn
base and start my descent when I am 45 degrees from the approach end
of the runway, and turn final so I'll roll out lined up on the center
line of the runway. Maybe ya'll do it different now. 
Take care,
john h
mkIII
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: Dave's accident |
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Hi,
re pattern flying. 1000ft seems awfully high. In the UK there is usually an ultralight pattern at 6 or 800 ft and smaller than the regular GA pattern leading to a grass runway parallel to the main tarmac.
In my own field I fly lower and my approach is of the `turn left behind the big elm tree` variety. Partly because I like doing it and partly because I learned to fly in gliders and they generally fly a pretty loosely defined sort of pattern like that.
I wouldn`t dream of doing that at a `proper` field. Ultralighters have a bad enough name anyway without deliberately acting in a stupid, and probably dangerous manner.
Whoever suggested flying without a license, in whatever circumstances should be locked up for the benefit of the rest of us. Imagine the headlines. Uninsured and unlicenced pilot crashes on house killing mother of 4 children.
The general public think we should be grounded when they discover that we have no radio and file no flight plans, let alone fly without a licence. The entire movement would be crucified and regulations would be piled on evryone. Just look at the demands to stop GA flights down the river after that plane flew into the skyscaper.
As for `showing off my super climb rate`....fine in your own field with your mates..on a GA field you are nuts. Traffic on a field is planned on the basis of everyone having roughly similar perfomances and if you suddenly climb at twice the usual rate you upset the expectations of every other pilot in the pattern and throw off their planning.
Perhaps it is a function of the space you have in the States and the fact that you can fly a long, long way from any authority but happenstance will get you in the end.
Cheers
Pat
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: Dave's accident |
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happenstance will get you in the end.
Cheers
Pat
Patrick:
What does a "happenstance" look like?
john h
mkIII
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Russ Kinne
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Dave's accident |
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|
Most well said John!
I hope all of our pilots read and heed
do not archive
On Nov 18, 2006, at 2:30 PM, John Hauck wrote:
| Quote: |
| Also John remember we fly our experimental Kolbs into Oshkosh as
ultralights
| and land at the "ultralight strip"
| Rick Neilsen
Thought it was an airstrip for light planes, ultralights, rotorcraft,
flying bed sheets, trikes, and rag bags.
Rick, you need to explain your statement above.
Folks, don't forget, many of us fly out of cow pastures, back yards,
deserts, desert roads, gravel bars, hay fields, borrow pits, and
parking lots, etc.
I fly in and out of my cow pasture in a routine manner. Usually, the
same procedure each time, except when the wind changes my landing
direction. Does it look like a traffic pattern at an airport.
Probably not in the least. I don't know the first thing about the
airstrip AZ Dave was flying out of, other than an abandoned WWII
field. Probably nothing out there but the old strip and desert.
Doubt if many GA aircraft fly in and out of there, but I may be wrong.
AZ George can enlighten us on the airstrip at Paulden.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with 100 or 200 ft pattern
altitude at Paulden, if it is not an official FAA recognized airport.
Kolbs are more than happy flying at that altitude as they are at 1,000
feet. Kolbs don't stall because of insufficient altitude, but
insufficient airspeed. From the few photos I saw of the area, looked
like a lot of flat high desert to me. I could be wrong though.
Plenty places to do an off field landing, if necessary. I believe
Dave did one a year or so ago and busted his mkIII.
Some of us have flown coast to coast, low level, and I don't mean less
than 10,000 feet.
When I fly in and out of airports, I fly the traffic pattern, usually
not nearly as big as the GA guys. Why, because I don't need to. Many
times I have landed ahead of GA (150, 152, etc.) aircraft that were
flying B-52 type traffic patterns, even though they entered the
traffic pattern long before I did. At my local airport, 08A, I can
fly 3 or 4 Kolb traffic patterns before a 152 flies a single pattern.
Its been a while since I went through primary flight training, but if
I remember correctly (and if I don't, John W will certainly correct
me), I can turn cross wind when I clear the departure end of the
runway, turn down wind when I reach traffic pattern altitude, turn
base and start my descent when I am 45 degrees from the approach end
of the runway, and turn final so I'll roll out lined up on the center
line of the runway. Maybe ya'll do it different now.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
|
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Russ Kinne
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: Dave's accident |
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i think "happenstance" may be a large purple-faced gentleman with
steam coming out of his ears and a clipboard (or summons book) in his
hand, wearing a cap that says "FAA", approaching your aircraft after
landing --
do not archive
On Nov 18, 2006, at 2:43 PM, John Hauck wrote:
| Quote: |
happenstance will get you in the end.
Cheers
Pat
Patrick:
What does a "happenstance" look like?
john h
mkIII
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: Dave's accident |
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purple-faced gentleman with
| steam coming out of his ears and a clipboard (or summons book) in
his
| hand, wearing a cap that says "FAA", approaching your aircraft after
| landing --
Russ K:
Know what that is. Couple years ago, John W, Gary H, and I, got
nailed by one of those when we arrived at the UL airstrip, Sun and
Fun, Lakeland, FL. What an ass hole, pardon my French. Luckily we
had John W with us. John W squared this short, fat, ill mannered SOB
away in short order. John asked him if he had read the NOTAM for the
UL airstrip. FAA type replied, negative. John said there were more
than 30 pages for the main airport and one paragraph of a few lines
for the UL airstrip. What the FAA type was trying to nail us on,
illegal low pass was not in the UL NOTAM. The airstrip was closed,
except for arrivals. I was flying lead on a three ship formation.
Was my duty to drag the field to insure it was safe to land. All
three of us drug the field, but we stayed south of the ditch that
parallels the airstrip, which is covered in the daily briefings at
Lakeland each year. End of story, FAA type departed in his little
golf cart never to bother us again, I hope.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
PS: What was the question?
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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rlaird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:46 am Post subject: Dave's accident |
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Yes, a MkIII w/ 912S
On 11/18/06, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
| I have always tried hard to fly my UL as if it were an N-numbered
| experimental... in my minds eye, that's how I see it, anyway.
|
| -- Robert
Robert:
Thought you were flying a MKIII?
john h
mkIII
N101AB
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_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com |
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flyingfox(at)copper.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:55 am Post subject: Dave's accident |
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John:
In our Class D, traffic permitting I routinely turn crosswind as soon as I
have 500 feet AGL and no runway remaining. I do not wait for the departure
end. The less turn I have to make in the event of an engine failure the
better. PKB has a tower and a crosswind runway and as long as you
communicate they let you do pretty much anything within the realm of safety.
21 has a big valley and woods at the end of it so I like to get pointed back
toward concrete as soon as possible during repeated patterns and power
changes. There is an AIM method of patterns but as I learned long ago about
holding patterns, there are really just two practical rules: stay in the
protected side of the hold and enter in the most expeditious and practical
means possible. All else is mishmash.
It will be good, if possible, to determine why Dave's airplane crashed, but
one thing I learned from sailplane flying, if it has a wing, it typically
wants to fly and if left alone to do its thing properly it usually will.
Todd
On 11/18/06 2:30 PM, "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
| Also John remember we fly our experimental Kolbs into Oshkosh as
ultralights
| and land at the "ultralight strip"
| Rick Neilsen
Thought it was an airstrip for light planes, ultralights, rotorcraft,
flying bed sheets, trikes, and rag bags.
Rick, you need to explain your statement above.
Folks, don't forget, many of us fly out of cow pastures, back yards,
deserts, desert roads, gravel bars, hay fields, borrow pits, and
parking lots, etc.
I fly in and out of my cow pasture in a routine manner. Usually, the
same procedure each time, except when the wind changes my landing
direction. Does it look like a traffic pattern at an airport.
Probably not in the least. I don't know the first thing about the
airstrip AZ Dave was flying out of, other than an abandoned WWII
field. Probably nothing out there but the old strip and desert.
Doubt if many GA aircraft fly in and out of there, but I may be wrong.
AZ George can enlighten us on the airstrip at Paulden.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with 100 or 200 ft pattern
altitude at Paulden, if it is not an official FAA recognized airport.
Kolbs are more than happy flying at that altitude as they are at 1,000
feet. Kolbs don't stall because of insufficient altitude, but
insufficient airspeed. From the few photos I saw of the area, looked
like a lot of flat high desert to me. I could be wrong though.
Plenty places to do an off field landing, if necessary. I believe
Dave did one a year or so ago and busted his mkIII.
Some of us have flown coast to coast, low level, and I don't mean less
than 10,000 feet.
When I fly in and out of airports, I fly the traffic pattern, usually
not nearly as big as the GA guys. Why, because I don't need to. Many
times I have landed ahead of GA (150, 152, etc.) aircraft that were
flying B-52 type traffic patterns, even though they entered the
traffic pattern long before I did. At my local airport, 08A, I can
fly 3 or 4 Kolb traffic patterns before a 152 flies a single pattern.
Its been a while since I went through primary flight training, but if
I remember correctly (and if I don't, John W will certainly correct
me), I can turn cross wind when I clear the departure end of the
runway, turn down wind when I reach traffic pattern altitude, turn
base and start my descent when I am 45 degrees from the approach end
of the runway, and turn final so I'll roll out lined up on the center
line of the runway. Maybe ya'll do it different now.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
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eagle1(at)commspeed.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: Dave's accident |
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I must add to this pattern thread. Our field is an old WW II field. At one
time it had a light asphalt covering, but now only a small spot or to is
all that is left of the paving. It is dirt and a mile long with no
obstructions at either end nor on the sides. We normally make the take off
near the middle of the field and usually make our first turn by the time we
reach the departcher end.There are homes now starting to be built near the
South side, but we have always flown a right hand pattern. There are three
homes on the North side, two of them are pilots.There are two GA planes
there and Four ultralingt type hangered there. The field is on the charts as
"Pilots Rest" and private.It is as John says mostly high desert open
country. It is an ideal place to fly because of the weather and an
ultrllalight and even a GA plane could make a forced landing anywhere off
field. It is seldom used by GA aircraft other than the ones housed there or
from the neighboring field to the South.
I think that "Big Lar" is the only other Kolber who has visited our
field. Jump in her Lar and give your comments.
I don't recommend using the pattern that we use here at other fields.
Always use the altitude that is recommended for that field.That is what I
have always done. We have been comfortable using the 3-500 feet altitude
here and will continue to do so.
Dave's Wife, Eve requests that in lew of flowers, donations be made to
the EAA Young Eagles program in Dave's name.
Or send them to her home.
Mrs. David Pelletier
1134 Fair St.
Prescott. Az.86305
Az Bald Eagle George Thompson
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: Dave's accident |
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What does a "happenstance" look like?>>
John,
I think Russ Kines description will do just fine.
I remember getting cursed when flying my glider out of Compton Abbas, a
local hill top field. A road runs alongside the field which is bordered by
quite a large wood.
Because of the wood and the curve of the hill top the field is invisible
from the South. I had only flown from the field a couple of times and on
this occasion I had taken my first airotow launch. In error a short rope was
used and the tug and I left the ground and flew through the curl over from
the valley leaving me facing one way and the tug, at a different height,
facing the other. In fact the tug pilot said later that he almost pulled the
plug on me.
Returning to the field I suddenly discovered that it was invisible. I could
see the road and the local towns and village and was certain of my position
but the field was gone. Height was slipping away as I just flew blind at
minimum sink rate towards where the field MUST be. I just about cleared the
wood and with great relief actually saw the field. Unfortunately I was 90
degrees to the strip, about halfway along its length and only about 50ft
up.The strip was too narrow to land across so I stuck the the nose down to
get a bit of speed, stuffed the port wing over as steeply as I could and
applied a bootful of left rudder.Centralised everything and bum;ped to a
halt.
As I gathered myself together there was the pounding of feet and the
extremely irate owner of the field was glaring into the cockpit. shaking
with rage
" Pat, If thats the *******way they taught you to ******* fly at
******Keevil you can get yourself and your *****glider off my *****field and
never *****well come back"
Luckily I knew him well and bought him a beer later and all was well, But
there was no doubt that I fully deserved the telling off.
Cheers
Pat
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biglar
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: Dave's accident |
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I'm amazed that I'm the only one who's stopped there, George. My memory of
your private strip is mostly of wide open spaces, a huge airstrip, taxiways
everywhere, widely spaced houses, mostly owned by pilots with planes of
several types in their driveways, and an easy going, pleasant attitude from
everybody I met. I really liked it, really enjoyed myself, and wouldn't
mind living there myself. I even enjoyed being scrunched into the backseat
(??) of your FS II, cramps and all. We certainly did fly low & slow,
and saw antelope, deer and coyotes. The antelope almost outran the
airplane.
To show I wasn't too scared off, I even scrunched into the back seat of
Larry Cottrell's FS II at the Alvord a couple of years ago. Larry's a
little (??) bigger than you, my chest was the support for his seat back, and
my knees were his elbow rests. I think so, anyway - I was pretty numb.
When I took a deep breath, Larry's forehead hit the windshield. I could
actually move my hands and head - a bit. I could tell you much about
groaning with a non-resolvable cramp, but I enjoyed that ride, too.
I've flown out of several strips that had dual patterns, since I've flown
both ultralights and GA airplanes - mostly GA, but enuf UL's to give me a
perspective of their different requirements. With the situation at your
place, I don't see any problem with either or both patterns, assuming people
watch and listen. Dave's turning crosswind at 300 ft or so doesn't strike
me as a bad thing at all, given the situation there. A stall/spin from
close to 1,000 ft probably won't be resolved in time, either. I've done
quite a few spins (intentional) with instructors in Port Angeles, WA, and
seems to me that it took 1000 to 1200 ft or so to straighten out the plane.
My 1st spin - on my 1st solo flight in a Cessna 172 - was totally
un-intentional, is a long story, and took well over 2,000 ft to resolve, but
that was my fault, as was the spin. Once again, lack of airspeed causes
stalls and spins, not altitude. We could speculate forever, and point
fingers back & forth, and never know for sure what really happened that day,
tho' it's purely guaranteed that it was a crying shame. Dave will be
missed. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
www.gogittum.com
---
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_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose" |
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