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apatton2
Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 32
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 Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2024 11:39 pm Post subject: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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A question: how do you tell if your landing gear handle is going bad vs. actuator seals failing?
What I observe:
Handle down - air is leaking through the handle. I can't tell which port of the handle it's coming out of.
Handle neutral - system is very tight. No audible leaks, and main tank will not leak down (at least not very quickly - when turning air back on after 2h there is almost no dip in the pressure gage).
Handle up - (have only tested while flying so far) - system seems normal as pressure builds to 50atm (I wouldn't say this is super rapid, so there may be leakage in this position but the compressor is simply overcoming it).
I suspect that the actuator seals themselves are going given how tight the neutral position is... maybe that is the answer.
I hope to be able to jack the plane soon to test things while it's on its gear.
Thanks for any insight,
Andrew
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Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA |
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wamflight(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:56 am Post subject: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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Phone number? My 50 did the same. Wamflight(at)gmail.com
Bill
| Quote: | On Dec 1, 2024, at 01:43, apatton2 <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

A question: how do you tell if your landing gear handle is going bad vs. actuator seals failing?
What I observe:
Handle down - air is leaking through the handle. I can't tell which port of the handle it's coming out of.
Handle neutral - system is very tight. No audible leaks, and main tank will not leak down (at least not very quickly - when turning air back on after 2h there is almost no dip in the pressure gage).
Handle up - (have only tested while flying so far) - system seems normal as pressure builds to 50atm (I wouldn't say this is super rapid, so there may be leakage in this position but the compressor is simply overcoming it).
I suspect that the actuator seals themselves are going given how tight the neutral position is... maybe that is the answer.
I hope to be able to jack the plane soon to test things while it's on its gear.
Thanks for any insight,
Andrew
--------
Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515050#515050
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JB Soar
Joined: 19 Apr 2019
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 7:14 am Post subject: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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817 701-9948, but call me tomorrow. I'm at work today...
Thank you!
John Bergeson
Rhome, Texas
On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 8:58 AM Bill <wamflight(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
Phone number? My 50 did the same. Wamflight(at)gmail.com
Bill
> On Dec 1, 2024, at 01:43, apatton2 <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
> 
apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
>
> A question: how do you tell if your landing gear handle is going bad vs
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markbitterlich(at)embarqm
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 7:56 am Post subject: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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The landing gear actuators vent through the landing gear handle. With the gear down the side the pistons in the actuator push against vents air to the landing gear handle and out. The opposite side vents with the gear up.
The unpublished secret is that in the neutral position of the gear handle the vent is cut off.
Given your description there is no question that one if your gear actuators has bad chevron seals and is leaking internally from one side to the other and then venting through the handle.
The middle position of the gear handle not allowing venting is critical to know. If the chevron seals fail, you'll leak air out and maybe not having air for brakes. Putting the gear handle in the middle allows the compressor to pump the main bottle (and emergency bottle in a 50) back up giving you brakes and or more attempts to get the gear down with busted actuator chevron seals.
This is a downer, don't fly it.
Mark
P.S. Getting the actuators out can be problematic. Although it can be done by the directions, for me I pull it out with the whole gear leg.
P.P.S. Be damn careful removing the main actuator hoses. There are flow restrictor tiny washers INSIDE of the hose fittings. They'll fall out and roll merrily away never to be seen again. The Emergency hoses do not have them.
-------- Original message --------
From: apatton2 <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
Date: 12/1/24 2:42 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve
--> Yak-List message posted by: "apatton2" <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
A question: how do you tell if your landing gear handle is going bad vs. actuator seals failing?
What I observe:
Handle down - air is leaking through the handle. I can't tell which port of the handle it's coming out of.
Handle neutral - system is very tight. No audible leaks, and main tank will not leak down (at least not very quickly - when turning air back on after 2h there is almost no dip in the pressure gage).
Handle up - (have only tested while flying so far) - system seems normal as pressure builds to 50atm (I wouldn't say this is super rapid, so there may be leakage in this position but the compressor is simply overcoming it).
I suspect that the actuator seals themselves are going given how tight the neutral position is... maybe that is the answer.
I hope to be able to jack the plane soon to test things while it's on its gear.
Thanks for any insight,
Andrew
--------
Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515050#515050
_-============================================================
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_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
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_-= --> https://matronics.com/contribution
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markbitterlich(at)embarqm
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:12 am Post subject: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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Excuse me, I misspoke.
With the landing gear handle in the middle position PRESSURE is sealed off going to the landing gear actuators in the 50. The VENT is not sealed as I said earlier. OOPS! Old memories. The PRESSURE is sealed GOING to the actuators.
With the gear handle down (or up) pressure is continuously applied to the actuators. In the middle position pressure is removed to the actuators.
If there is an internal actuator leak, putting the handle in the middle cuts off pressure, the residual pressure will then bleed off through the vent in the gear handle.
In an emergency, you can put the gear handle down, lower the gear, then put it in the middle to repressurize the bottle and actually land with it in the middle because the 50's landing gear mechanically locks down and air pressure is not required to KEEP it down. Don't try this in a 52. Anyway, this is not theory, I had to actually do it 20 years ago ferrying a 50 to Vladimir in Ramona CA.
Sorry. I hadn't finished my coffee.
Mark
-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Bitterlich <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com>
Date: 12/1/24 10:55 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Cc: markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve
The landing gear actuators vent through the landing gear handle. With the gear down the side the pistons in the actuator push against vents air to the landing gear handle and out. The opposite side vents with the gear up.
The unpublished secret is that in the neutral position of the gear handle the vent is cut off.
Given your description there is no question that one if your gear actuators has bad chevron seals and is leaking internally from one side to the other and then venting through the handle.
The middle position of the gear handle not allowing venting is critical to know. If the chevron seals fail, you'll leak air out and maybe not having air for brakes. Putting the gear handle in the middle allows the compressor to pump the main bottle (and emergency bottle in a 50) back up giving you brakes and or more attempts to get the gear down with busted actuator chevron seals.
This is a downer, don't fly it.
Mark
P.S. Getting the actuators out can be problematic. Although it can be done by the directions, for me I pull it out with the whole gear leg.
P.P.S. Be damn careful removing the main actuator hoses. There are flow restrictor tiny washers INSIDE of the hose fittings. They'll fall out and roll merrily away never to be seen again. The Emergency hoses do not have them.
-------- Original message --------
From: apatton2 <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
Date: 12/1/24 2:42 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve
--> Yak-List message posted by: "apatton2" <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
A question: how do you tell if your landing gear handle is going bad vs. actuator seals failing?
What I observe:
Handle down - air is leaking through the handle. I can't tell which port of the handle it's coming out of.
Handle neutral - system is very tight. No audible leaks, and main tank will not leak down (at least not very quickly - when turning air back on after 2h there is almost no dip in the pressure gage).
Handle up - (have only tested while flying so far) - system seems normal as pressure builds to 50atm (I wouldn't say this is super rapid, so there may be leakage in this position but the compressor is simply overcoming it).
I suspect that the actuator seals themselves are going given how tight the neutral position is... maybe that is the answer.
I hope to be able to jack the plane soon to test things while it's on its gear.
Thanks for any insight,
Andrew
--------
Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515050#515050
_-============================================================
_-= - The Yak-List Email Forum -
_-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
_-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
_-= Photoshare, and much much more:
_-=
_-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
_-=
_-============================================================
_-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
_-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
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_-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
_-=
_-============================================================
_-= - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
_-= Add some info to the Matronics Email List Wiki!
_-= --> http://wiki.matronics.com
_-============================================================
_-= - List Contribution Web Site -
_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-= --> https://matronics.com/contribution
_-============================================================
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apatton2
Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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Thanks - this is a very helpful response and your second message especially makes a lot of sense to me. It brings to mind a few more questions:
1) What is the failure mode for the handle itself? If it leaks in neutral (after the existing air pressure is vented), then it's a bad handle?
2) I recently was looking through a Yak-50 Maintenance Schedule doc. Seems like the Russians recommend oiling the actuators with 15mL of oil every year, minimum:
| Quote: | Through union bodies fill working chambers (retraction and extension) of undercarriage jacks with 15-20 cm3
of oil No. 6 (GOST 10957-61 standard). |
Does anyone actually do this? I've been flying -50s since 2012 and hadn't heard of regularly putting oil (in the West are we using air tool oil or something else?)
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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_________________
Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA |
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2024 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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I would not know about any seals in the lg valve, at least not on a 18 T. The seals are perfectly lapped faces of moving parts , sort of disc valve. So my guess is rust on these faces. You can get diamond paste and lap both parts for nice finish and good seal. In assembling the lot a smear of clear chain grease will prevent corrosion and smooth operation. Any other quality grease will do when it is not too light strength.
Vic
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wamflight(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2024 3:09 pm Post subject: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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Easy to check it out.
| Quote: | On Dec 1, 2024, at 22:40, apatton2 <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

Thanks - this is a very helpful response and your second message especially makes a lot of sense to me. It brings to mind a few more questions:
1) What is the failure mode for the handle itself? If it leaks in neutral (after the existing air pressure is vented), then it's a bad handle?
2) I recently was looking through a Yak-50 Maintenance Schedule doc. Seems like the Russians recommend oiling the actuators with 15mL of oil every year, minimum:
> Through union bodies fill working chambers (retraction and extension) of undercarriage jacks with 15-20 cm3
> of oil No. 6 (GOST 10957-61 standard).
Does anyone actually do this? I've been flying -50s since 2012 and hadn't heard of regularly putting oil (in the West are we using air tool oil or something else?)
--------
Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515055#515055
|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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markbitterlich(at)embarqm
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2024 9:07 am Post subject: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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Hello Andrew.
1. Yes, I would say that if it leaks in Neutral it's a bad handle, UNLESS it is a cracked fitting, which is easily possible.
2. Yes, the maintenance cards call for a mixture of glycol and .. if I remember correctly.... mineral oil? I forget, but regardless, I did it years ago and without going through the whole story, I stopped doing it. Up to you but doing this, and exactly how much and exactly what to put in there has been the subject of lots of debate. 50 LG actuators can rust internally so probably good to rebuild them before ..... bad things happen.
Mark
-------- Original message --------
From: apatton2 <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
Date: 12/1/24 11:39 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve
--> Yak-List message posted by: "apatton2" <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
Thanks - this is a very helpful response and your second message especially makes a lot of sense to me. It brings to mind a few more questions:
1) What is the failure mode for the handle itself? If it leaks in neutral (after the existing air pressure is vented), then it's a bad handle?
2) I recently was looking through a Yak-50 Maintenance Schedule doc. Seems like the Russians recommend oiling the actuators with 15mL of oil every year, minimum:
| Quote: | Through union bodies fill working chambers (retraction and extension) of undercarriage jacks with 15-20 cm3
of oil No. 6 (GOST 10957-61 standard).
|
Does anyone actually do this? I've been flying -50s since 2012 and hadn't heard of regularly putting oil (in the West are we using air tool oil or something else?)
--------
Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515055#515055
_-============================================================
_-= - The Yak-List Email Forum -
_-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
_-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
_-= Photoshare, and much much more:
_-=
_-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
_-=
_-============================================================
_-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
_-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
_-=
_-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
_-=
_-============================================================
_-= - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
_-= Add some info to the Matronics Email List Wiki!
_-= --> http://wiki.matronics.com
_-============================================================
_-= - List Contribution Web Site -
_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-= --> https://matronics.com/contribution
_-============================================================
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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apatton2
Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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Thanks for all of these replies. All very helpful, especially the pic of the disassembled LG handle/valve. Hugely helpful in understanding function.
I needed to ferry the plane to someone who had jacks, so squirted some air tool oil in the actuators. Amazingly this seemed to immediately return the gear to normal operation (simultaneous extension at normal speed) though the handle leak is still present. (at)Mark your comment about leaking in neutral an indicator of a bad handle makes good sense.
So, am removing actuators now and looking fwd / dreading seeing pics of interior.
Incidentally I had some old data from Tom Johnson on seal supply from the AC Depuydt Seal Co (dated 2007). Ctc info: https://acdepuydt.com/contact/
The chevron seals for the gear actuators are $23 ea and p/n is now MU-035045060-SNBR-90. Will advise when they show as to how simple they are to fit.
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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_________________
Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA |
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markbitterlich(at)embarqm
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 8:56 pm Post subject: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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Be aware that there is a locking screw drilled into each end that must be removed before twisting the ends off. That and they are not identical. There is a left and right actuator. Mark everything accordingly or etch.
Mark
-------- Original message --------
From: apatton2 <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
Date: 12/9/24 8:57 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve
--> Yak-List message posted by: "apatton2" <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
Thanks for all of these replies. All very helpful, especially the pic of the disassembled LG handle/valve. Hugely helpful in understanding function.
I needed to ferry the plane to someone who had jacks, so squirted some air tool oil in the actuators. Amazingly this seemed to immediately return the gear to normal operation (simultaneous extension at normal speed) though the handle leak is still present.
So, am removing actuators now and looking fwd / dreading seeing pics of interior.
Incidentally I had some old data from Tom Johnson on seal supply from the AC Depuydt Seal Co (dated 2007). The chevron seals for the gear actuators are $23 ea and p/n is now MU-035045060-SNBR-90. Will advise when they show as to how simple they are to fit.
--------
Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515147#515147
_-============================================================
_-= - The Yak-List Email Forum -
_-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
_-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
_-= Photoshare, and much much more:
_-=
_-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
_-=
_-============================================================
_-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
_-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
_-=
_-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
_-=
_-============================================================
_-= - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
_-= Add some info to the Matronics Email List Wiki!
_-= --> http://wiki.matronics.com
_-============================================================
_-= - List Contribution Web Site -
_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-= --> https://matronics.com/contribution
_-============================================================
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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markbitterlich(at)embarqm
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 8:59 pm Post subject: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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|
I did the same with air tool oil.
Then the hardened chevron seals disintegrated into chunks and by the Grace of God I got the gear down.
N50YK
-------- Original message --------
From: apatton2 <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
Date: 12/9/24 8:57 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve
--> Yak-List message posted by: "apatton2" <apatton(at)alumni.princeton.edu>
Thanks for all of these replies. All very helpful, especially the pic of the disassembled LG handle/valve. Hugely helpful in understanding function.
I needed to ferry the plane to someone who had jacks, so squirted some air tool oil in the actuators. Amazingly this seemed to immediately return the gear to normal operation (simultaneous extension at normal speed) though the handle leak is still present.
So, am removing actuators now and looking fwd / dreading seeing pics of interior.
Incidentally I had some old data from Tom Johnson on seal supply from the AC Depuydt Seal Co (dated 2007). The chevron seals for the gear actuators are $23 ea and p/n is now MU-035045060-SNBR-90. Will advise when they show as to how simple they are to fit.
--------
Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515147#515147
_-============================================================
_-= - The Yak-List Email Forum -
_-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
_-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
_-= Photoshare, and much much more:
_-=
_-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
_-=
_-============================================================
_-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
_-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
_-=
_-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
_-=
_-============================================================
_-= - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
_-= Add some info to the Matronics Email List Wiki!
_-= --> http://wiki.matronics.com
_-============================================================
_-= - List Contribution Web Site -
_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-= --> https://matronics.com/contribution
_-============================================================
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Stratyaks
Joined: 02 Nov 2015
Posts: 10
Location: Stratford upon Avon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:25 am Post subject: Re: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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Hi,
As far as I know, the listed lubricant to use in Yak-50/52 air systems is Fluid 132-25 which is a silicon-based fluid and still available in the RF although only in 205 litres which is more than anyone would ever need (if you could obtain it!). Borrowing someone else's research, the closest Western approximation they found is Dow Corning Xiameter PMX-200 Silicone Fluid which is very close in composition and viscosity. I use this exclusively as the best alternative, I would NEVER put any grease, mineral oil or mineral oil based or indeed, any other lubricant whether it be PTFE based or whatever, inside the air system IN ANY PLACE for ANY REASON! The exception being a good sticky anti-corrosion coating on the inside of the air bottles but none of this can enter the air system once 'set'.
All my air jacks and uplock releases are manually lubricated with PMX annually.
Thats what I do anyway. Cheers, J.
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apatton2
Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2024 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Yak-50 MLG handle / valve |
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Stratyaks, why do you say that? Curious to know what the concern is on putting a non-silicone-based oil into the system is (e.g. what do you think will happen if a mineral oil is used?) I ask because since the system is compressing and using ambient air, it's likely got all kinds of moisture in it anyway (and whatever else) to begin with... so it's not exactly clean.
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Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA |
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