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AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator

 
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Alfred Buess



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:46 am    Post subject: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Hi James

My Europa is equipped with the RiteAngle system from EM Aviation. It is a
standalone system with a vane mounted under the wing.

Regards
Alfred

¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
Alfred Buess
CH-3700 Spiez, Switzerland
Europa XS HB-YKI, Ercoupe 415-E N94804

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Von: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Mallard
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. Oktober 2019 23:31
An: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Betreff: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator



Has anyone ever fitted an AoA Indicator to their Europa? If yes, what model
did you fit and was there a reason why you selected that particular model?

Cheers
James

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carlp101



Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Hi James,

I fitted the Dynon heated probe that is also an AoA probe, but you need it to feed a Dynon ADHRS unit. The AoA gauge is displayed in the main Dynon SkyView panel.

Regards
Carl


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Mallard



Joined: 22 Oct 2019
Posts: 7
Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Hi Alfred,
Have you a colored Led display in the cabin? If yes, how did you route the wires etc through the wing? (N.B. I didn't build my aircraft)

Cheers
James


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Mallard



Joined: 22 Oct 2019
Posts: 7
Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Hi Carl,
I was reading about your model & how it works. One negative thing stood out for me: it said that unlike the Vane Type, the Air Pressure type can't compensate for the use of Flaps! Given that you are normally going to be using Full Flap during Approach and Landing, I would have thought that, that's when it was needed most.
Do you normally come in on Full Flap? If yes, how have you found it? Have you compared your POH Full Flap minimum speed with the AoA display.
Also,
How did you feed your wires and the 2 pipe lines through the wing? Is there an accessible cavity close to the Pitot mounting position?

Cheers
James


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carlp101



Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Hi James,

When you go through the calibration of the Dynon AoA probe you stall the plane in various configurations - no flaps, full flaps etc. The result is a very effective gauge.

As I was replacing my existing non-AoA probe so I already had two tubes routed through the wing (static & dynamic pressure). I used those for dynamic pressure & AoA. I located a static pressure sensor to the fuselage instead.

All the best.
Carl


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Alfred Buess



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Hi James

Yes I have a colored LED display in the cockpit: one LED red, one amber, three green. See attached picture. The vane is mounted on the inspection cover forward of the outrigger attachment (outer flap hinge). I have the classic foam wing with a tube inside, in which the wires are routed. Alternatively you can install the wires in the flap close-out with a short tube between the aileron bellcrank access hole and the flap close-out.

Regard, Alfred


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BobD



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Location: Sheffield UK

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

carlp101 wrote:
Hi James,

I fitted the Dynon heated probe that is also an AoA probe, but you need it to feed a Dynon ADHRS unit. The AoA gauge is displayed in the main Dynon SkyView panel.

Regards
Carl


Hi James,
When Carl fitted his Dynon heated probe, he kindly gave me his original AOA probe, which I think he fabricated himself by slipping a slightly wider aluminium pipe over the original probe, and chamfering the front end to match the angle required for an AOA probe. I fitted this to the inspection panel on the starboard wing, after replacing the acrylic cover with a metal cover, and used this for my Dyson Skyview AOA gauge, and it works well. Fortunately, I had some unnecessary wiring running through the wing which I used to feed through the necessary tubing. I have attached a couple of photos.

However, I also fitted a SmartAss device after reading the article in the June 2014 LAA Magazine by David Joyce, and I must say I find the audio prompting from this great, and would thoroughly recommend it, to augment the AOA function.

Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:21 am    Post subject: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Another vote in favour of audio warnings which are hard to ignore and do not interrupt an already busy visual scan on final approach.

I regularly fly another taildragger with Dynon AoA & audio warnings - a bit like parking sensors there’s a beeping tone which becomes faster as you approach the stall - fantastic.

My Europa has the Smartass which is also good.

On balance I prefer the AoA since the stall is directly related to AoA & correct approach speed IAS changes according to A/C weight.

Some good AoA landing videos on youtube.

Regards,

Roger

Quote:
On 29 Oct 2019, at 19:52, BobD <rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com> wrote:




carlp101 wrote:
> Hi James,
>
> I fitted the Dynon heated probe that is also an AoA probe, but you need it to feed a Dynon ADHRS unit. The AoA gauge is displayed in the main Dynon SkyView panel.
>
> Regards
> Carl


Hi James,
When Carl fitted his Dynon heated probe, he kindly gave me his original AOA probe, which I think he fabricated himself by slipping a slightly wider aluminium pipe over the original probe, and chamfering the front end to match the angle required for an AOA probe. I fitted this to the inspection panel on the starboard wing, after replacing the acrylic cover with a metal cover, and used this for my Dyson Skyview AOA gauge, and it works well. Fortunately, I had some unnecessary wiring running through the wing which I used to feed through the necessary tubing. I have attached a couple of photos.

However, I also fitted a SmartAss device after reading the article in the June 2014 LAA Magazine by David Joyce, and I must say I find the audio prompting from this great, and would thoroughly recommend it, to augment the AOA function.

Hope this helps.

--------
Bob Dawson
Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3




Read this topic online here:

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Burrilla



Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:59 am    Post subject: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Aviate Navigate Communicate.
Its interesting to hear peoples view on in-cockpit audio and its usefulness.

I am currently one of the Project Leads in Project GAINS which is looking at the use of Electronic Conspicuity Devices in a busy airfield environment.

One of the issues we have consistent feedback about is the increased audio warnings from traffic alerts and conflicting with radio calls from the ground and also other pilots increasing confusion and pilot workload.

That said an AoA warning would be, in my opinion, meeting the aviate criteria and therefore important to have prominance however how do pilots balance and indeed deselect those audio warning that are intrusive and distracting rather than life-saving.

Alan Burrill
G-OBJT
Quote:
On 30 Oct 2019, at 10:21, Roger Sheridan <rogersheridan(at)mac.com (rogersheridan(at)mac.com)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Roger Sheridan <rogersheridan(at)mac.com (rogersheridan(at)mac.com)>Another vote in favour of audio warnings which are hard to ignore and do not interrupt an already busy visual scan on final approach.I regularly fly another taildragger with Dynon AoA & audio warnings - a bit like parking sensors there’s a beeping tone which becomes faster as you approach the stall - fantastic.My Europa has the Smartass which is also good.On balance I prefer the AoA since the stall is directly related to AoA & correct approach speed IAS changes according to A/C weight.Some good AoA landing videos on youtube.Regards,Roger
Quote:
On 29 Oct 2019, at 19:52, BobD <rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com (rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com)> wrote:--> Europa-List message posted by: "BobD" <rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com (rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com)>carlp101 wrote:
Quote:
Hi James,I fitted the Dynon heated probe that is also an AoA probe, but you need it to feed a Dynon ADHRS unit. The AoA gauge is displayed in the main Dynon SkyView panel.Regards Carl
Hi James,When Carl fitted his Dynon heated probe, he kindly gave me his original AOA probe, which I think he fabricated himself by slipping a slightly wider aluminium pipe over the original probe, and chamfering the front end to match the angle required for an AOA probe. I fitted this to the inspection panel on the starboard wing, after replacing the acrylic cover with a metal cover, and used this for my Dyson Skyview AOA gauge, and it works well. Fortunately, I had some unnecessary wiring running through the wing which I used to feed through the necessary tubing. I have attached a couple of photos.However, I also fitted a SmartAss device after reading the article in the June 2014 LAA Magazine by David Joyce, and I must say I find the audio prompting from this great, and would thoroughly recommend it, to augment the AOA function.Hope this helps.--------Bob DawsonEuropa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492026#492026Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/14727_7_208.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/14727_6_172.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/14727_5_208.jpg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:15 am    Post subject: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Agreed, I have a mute switch for the sky demon & pilot aware audio when it all becomes too much.Somehow the aoa beeping is easier to assimilate for me than smart ass voice which seems to be nagging!
Quote:
On 30 Oct 2019, at 10:58, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)> wrote:
Aviate Navigate Communicate.
Its interesting to hear peoples view on in-cockpit audio and its usefulness.

I am currently one of the Project Leads in Project GAINS which is looking at the use of Electronic Conspicuity Devices in a busy airfield environment.

One of the issues we have consistent feedback about is the increased audio warnings from traffic alerts and conflicting with radio calls from the ground and also other pilots increasing confusion and pilot workload.

That said an AoA warning would be, in my opinion, meeting the aviate criteria and therefore important to have prominance however how do pilots balance and indeed deselect those audio warning that are intrusive and distracting rather than life-saving.

Alan Burrill
G-OBJT
Quote:
On 30 Oct 2019, at 10:21, Roger Sheridan <rogersheridan(at)mac.com (rogersheridan(at)mac.com)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Roger Sheridan <rogersheridan(at)mac.com (rogersheridan(at)mac.com)>Another vote in favour of audio warnings which are hard to ignore and do not interrupt an already busy visual scan on final approach.I regularly fly another taildragger with Dynon AoA & audio warnings - a bit like parking sensors there’s a beeping tone which becomes faster as you approach the stall - fantastic.My Europa has the Smartass which is also good.On balance I prefer the AoA since the stall is directly related to AoA & correct approach speed IAS changes according to A/C weight.Some good AoA landing videos on youtube.Regards,Roger
Quote:
On 29 Oct 2019, at 19:52, BobD <rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com (rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com)> wrote:--> Europa-List message posted by: "BobD" <rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com (rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com)>carlp101 wrote:
Quote:
Hi James,I fitted the Dynon heated probe that is also an AoA probe, but you need it to feed a Dynon ADHRS unit. The AoA gauge is displayed in the main Dynon SkyView panel.Regards Carl
Hi James,When Carl fitted his Dynon heated probe, he kindly gave me his original AOA probe, which I think he fabricated himself by slipping a slightly wider aluminium pipe over the original probe, and chamfering the front end to match the angle required for an AOA probe. I fitted this to the inspection panel on the starboard wing, after replacing the acrylic cover with a metal cover, and used this for my Dyson Skyview AOA gauge, and it works well. Fortunately, I had some unnecessary wiring running through the wing which I used to feed through the necessary tubing. I have attached a couple of photos.However, I also fitted a SmartAss device after reading the article in the June 2014 LAA Magazine by David Joyce, and I must say I find the audio prompting from this great, and would thoroughly recommend it, to augment the AOA function.Hope this helps.--------Bob DawsonEuropa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492026#492026Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/14727_7_208.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/14727_6_172.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/14727_5_208.jpg
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clivesutton



Joined: 23 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:25 am    Post subject: Re: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Hi Alan,

If it helps and in response to your earlier post:-

"however how do pilots balance and indeed deselect those audio warning that are intrusive and distracting rather than life-saving"

I have my Smartass3 (hardwired) and Skydemon on my iPad (Bluetooth to a USB receiver, then plug-wired), and the ability to inject music via a 3.5mm panel input socket from e.g. a smartphone, installed.

All these external audio inputs are all wired to my TRIGTY91 - with the option to suppress them if someone on the radio chirps up, enabled - so i never get any conflict/incoming radio audio always takes priority.

The same radio has the 'monitor' feature for a second channel - which i use judiciously and mostly in the cruise

Clive S


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zwakie



Joined: 03 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:28 am    Post subject: Re: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

Quote:
Somehow the aoa beeping is easier to assimilate for me than smart ass voice which seems to be nagging!"


There is an easy way to get the best of both "worlds": SmartASS allows you to replace the normal sound files, so what one could do: replace the standard voice annunciations with sound files containing beeps that similar to the AoA beeps.

Additionally, if one would like to mute to "speed high" annunciations, simply replace those voice sound files with files that have no sound in them.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:55 am    Post subject: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

I prefer AoA to airspeed as a primary information source. AoA tells you you will slow down whereas ASI tells you you have already slowed down.
Stall is caused by critical AoA, which does not change with weight, or G load. Stall airspeed varies with weight and indicated airspeed lags
AoA by at least 10 seconds.
Graham.
Quote:
On 31 Oct 2019, at 09:28, zwakie <mz(at)cariama.nl> wrote:




> Somehow the aoa beeping is easier to assimilate for me than smart ass voice which seems to be nagging!"


There is an easy way to get the best of both "worlds": SmartASS allows you to replace the normal sound files, so what one could do: replace the standard voice annunciations with sound files containing beeps that similar to the AoA beeps.

Additionally, if one would like to mute to "speed high" annunciations, simply replace those voice sound files with files that have no sound in them.

--------
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR




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Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: AW: AoA - Angle of Attack Indicator Reply with quote

grahamsingleton(at)btinte wrote:
I prefer AoA to airspeed as a primary information source. AoA tells you you will slow down whereas ASI tells you you have already slowed down.
Stall is caused by critical AoA, which does not change with weight, or G load. Stall airspeed varies with weight and indicated airspeed lags
AoA by at least 10 seconds.
Graham.

I totally agree with you. My remark had to do with SmartASS's sounds only, how to replace voice with beeps...


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