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Ground plane question...

 
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jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.n
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:16 pm    Post subject: Ground plane question... Reply with quote

Maybe this one is for Bud Yerly, but anyone can chime in.

I am installing instruments in my Europa XS and was told all transponders need a ground plane. My research indicates a 12 inch circle of thin copper or aluminum will do, but that the ground plane and the antenna should be outside the aircraft so things like the engine and other metal stuff doesn’t interfere with the signal. I have a Mode C and a Mode S to deal with…and a GPS and Comm antenna too, but those don’t seem to need a ground plane. I am being informed that these antennas need to be at least 40 inches apart as well. Also, I have been told that putting the antenna itselfoutside the aircraft and the ground plane inside is a bad idea that screws up the signal.

Is any of this correct? What did you guys do?

Regards,

Jeff Williams


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dpark748(at)me.com
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:47 am    Post subject: Ground plane question... Reply with quote

Mine works fine on aluminium ground plane inside behind rear baggage wall,
Regards Dave Park G-LDVO

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On 17 Aug 2019, at 04:14, Jeffrey Williams <jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



Maybe this one is for Bud Yerly, but anyone can chime in.

I am installing instruments in my Europa XS and was told all transponders need a ground plane. My research indicates a 12 inch circle of thin copper or aluminum will do, but that the ground plane and the antenna should be outside the aircraft so things like the engine and other metal stuff doesn’t interfere with the signal. I have a Mode C and a Mode S to deal with…and a GPS and Comm antenna too, but those don’t seem to need a ground plane. I am being informed that these antennas need to be at least 40 inches apart as well. Also, I have been told that putting the antenna itselfoutside the aircraft and the ground plane inside is a bad idea that screws up the signal.

Is any of this correct? What did you guys do?

Regards,

Jeff Williams







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Burrilla



Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:28 am    Post subject: Ground plane question... Reply with quote

FLARM and SSR antenna in my Europa. They work fine with plenty of range and not impeded by the fibreglass fuselage.

VHF comm antenna is dipôle mounted on the rear fin as per the build manual. Again no range problems and all discretely mounted inside the aircraft.


Alan Burrill
Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On 17 Aug 2019, at 09:45, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:



Mine works fine on aluminium ground plane inside behind rear baggage wall,
Regards Dave Park G-LDVO

Sent from my iPad

> On 17 Aug 2019, at 04:14, Jeffrey Williams <jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Maybe this one is for Bud Yerly, but anyone can chime in.
>
> I am installing instruments in my Europa XS and was told all transponders need a ground plane. My research indicates a 12 inch circle of thin copper or aluminum will do, but that the ground plane and the antenna should be outside the aircraft so things like the engine and other metal stuff doesn’t interfere with the signal. I have a Mode C and a Mode S to deal with…and a GPS and Comm antenna too, but those don’t seem to need a ground plane. I am being informed that these antennas need to be at least 40 inches apart as well. Also, I have been told that putting the antenna itselfoutside the aircraft and the ground plane inside is a bad idea that screws up the signal.
>
> Is any of this correct? What did you guys do?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff Williams
>
>
>
>
>


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BobD



Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 70
Location: Sheffield UK

PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:47 am    Post subject: Re: Ground plane question... Reply with quote

I hung my transponder under one of the inspection panels in the baggage bay, and the antenna under the other one. This is Skyview transponder, with a remote body from the control head. It makes for easy access for any maintenance.

For the ground plane for the antenna, I used self adhesive copper strips in a star formation with a star washer on the base of the antenna to grip the centre point of the star. I can't remember the diameter of the star, but I recall I found lots of useful information in the Matronics AeroElectric & Avionics lists.


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_________________
Bob Dawson
Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:11 pm    Post subject: Ground plane question... Reply with quote

Jeff,

The ground plane depends on the transponder antenna.
If building one yourself from braid wire like the com is done, yes one is needed. If using an external antenna, yes of course. However:

If using a Bob Archer Model 5 or Advanced Aircraft Electronics (AAE), a ground plane is unneeded. I use the AAE exclusively because it is quick to install, and works perfectly with any ADS-B / Mode S and require no ground plane. I mount the transponder abeam the aft inspection panel. I put a bit of a convex curve on the balsa support supplied and a bit of Redux and tack with superglue until the Redux cures. Been holding fine on all my aircraft since 2000 so it must work.

The Bob Archer Model 5 is also quite good. It is larger and a bit cumbersome.

Place the com in the vertical tail works really well. Again I use the AAE brand as it is bulletproof, easy to install and has little thickness. They work with a BNC connectors either radial or tangential.

AAE Nav antennas I put across the curve just behind baggage bulkhead. Works fine, no VOR/ILS reception problems.

GPS antennas work well in the Europa panel. I have two in mine mounted below the top using a metal HAT Section Reduxed and or glassed to the top.

Garmin and Stratus supply a huge exterior mounted GPS that weighs about 2 pounds. I use them, because I have to, but dont like the weight. Both these suppliers have sufficient metal in the base for ground plane and require no extra ground plane but do take up panel roof top space. Plan well.

I do sometimes use an aluminum ground plane for the ELT antenna, but normally convince the owner to substitute the external ground plane antenna for a composite installation antenna . The AAE com antenna is fine for 121.5 and works with 406 but dont ask me how it works, Artex says it is OK. Check with your specific ELT manufactuerer. The small whip antenna ELT manufacturers supply, works with a six spoke aluminum X on the base built inside the aircraft. Just Google it and many of the manufacturers show how. A real pain to put in, so you see why I go to the manufacturer and ask for a composite equivalent antenna. Personally for ELTs I prefer the EBC type as there is no wiring. Mount to the baggage bay side and press on with the build. The time saved is worth the wiring and antenna mounting.

I never put an antenna external to the clean skin of the Europa. Therefore, no aluminum foil ground plane is necessary.

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Jeffrey Williams <jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 11:14:51 PM
To: Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Ground plane question...


--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeffrey Williams <jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.net>

Maybe this one is for Bud Yerly, but anyone can chime in.

I am installing instruments in my Europa XS and was told all transponders need a ground plane. My research indicates a 12 inch circle of thin copper or aluminum will do, but that the ground plane and the antenna should be outside the aircraft so things like the engine and other metal stuff doesnt interfere with the signal. I have a Mode C and a Mode S to deal withand a GPS and Comm antenna too, but those dont seem to need a ground plane. I am being informed that these antennas need to be at least 40 inches apart as well. Also, I have been told that putting the antenna itselfoutside the aircraft and the ground plane inside is a bad idea that screws up the signal.

Is any of this correct? What did you guys do?

Regards,

Jeff Williams


===========
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matronics.com
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p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:29 pm    Post subject: Ground plane question... Reply with quote

Jeffrey
You don’t need a ground plane, use a dipole antenna, much better radiation pattern than the 1/4 wave whips used in traditional metal aircraft. Bob Archer used to sell them at Aircraft Spruce.
Graham

Quote:
On 17 Aug 2019, at 04:14, Jeffrey Williams <jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



Maybe this one is for Bud Yerly, but anyone can chime in.

I am installing instruments in my Europa XS and was told all transponders need a ground plane. My research indicates a 12 inch circle of thin copper or aluminum will do, but that the ground plane and the antenna should be outside the aircraft so things like the engine and other metal stuff doesn’t interfere with the signal. I have a Mode C and a Mode S to deal with…and a GPS and Comm antenna too, but those don’t seem to need a ground plane. I am being informed that these antennas need to be at least 40 inches apart as well. Also, I have been told that putting the antenna itselfoutside the aircraft and the ground plane inside is a bad idea that screws up the signal.

Is any of this correct? What did you guys do?

Regards,

Jeff Williams







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jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.n
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:01 am    Post subject: Ground plane question... Reply with quote

Thanks a lot, Bud, as well as Alan and David. I was hoping not to do anything poking out into the wind. I appreciate the input!
Regards,

Jeff Williams
Quote:
On Aug 17, 2019, at 4:10 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
Jeff,

The ground plane depends on the transponder antenna.
If building one yourself from braid wire like the com is done, yes one is needed. If using an external antenna, yes of course. However:

If using a Bob Archer Model 5 or Advanced Aircraft Electronics (AAE), a ground plane is unneeded. I use the AAE exclusively because it is quick to install, and works perfectly with any ADS-B / Mode S and require no ground plane. I mount the transponder abeam the aft inspection panel. I put a bit of a convex curve on the balsa support supplied and a bit of Redux and tack with superglue until the Redux cures. Been holding fine on all my aircraft since 2000 so it must work.

The Bob Archer Model 5 is also quite good. It is larger and a bit cumbersome.

Place the com in the vertical tail works really well. Again I use the AAE brand as it is bulletproof, easy to install and has little thickness. They work with a BNC connectors either radial or tangential.

AAE Nav antennas I put across the curve just behind baggage bulkhead. Works fine, no VOR/ILS reception problems.

GPS antennas work well in the Europa panel. I have two in mine mounted below the top using a metal HAT Section Reduxed and or glassed to the top.

Garmin and Stratus supply a huge exterior mounted GPS that weighs about 2 pounds. I use them, because I have to, but don’t like the weight. Both these suppliers have sufficient metal in the base for ground plane and require no extra ground plane but do take up panel roof top space. Plan well.

I do sometimes use an aluminum ground plane for the ELT antenna, but normally convince the owner to substitute the external ground plane antenna for a composite installation antenna . The AAE com antenna is fine for 121.5 and works with 406 but don’t ask me how it works, Artex says it is OK. Check with your specific ELT manufactuerer. The small whip antenna ELT manufacturers supply, works with a six spoke aluminum X on the base built inside the aircraft. Just Google it and many of the manufacturers show how. A real pain to put in, so you see why I go to the manufacturer and ask for a composite equivalent antenna. Personally for ELTs I prefer the EBC type as there is no wiring. Mount to the baggage bay side and press on with the build. The time saved is worth the wiring and antenna mounting.

I never put an antenna external to the clean skin of the Europa. Therefore, no aluminum foil ground plane is necessary.

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly

Sent from Mail for Windows 10


From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of Jeffrey Williams <jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.net (jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.net)>Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 11:14:51 PMTo: Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>Subject: Ground plane question...
--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeffrey Williams <jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.net (jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.net)>Maybe this one is for Bud Yerly, but anyone can chime in.I am installing instruments in my Europa XS and was told all transponders need a ground plane. My research indicates a 12 inch circle of thin copper or aluminum will do, but that the ground plane and the antenna should be outside the aircraft so things like the engine and other metal stuff doesn’t interfere with the signal. I have a Mode C and a Mode S to deal with…and a GPS and Comm antenna too, but those don’t seem to need a ground plane. I am being informed that these antennas need to be at least 40 inches apart as well. Also, I have been told that putting the antenna itselfoutside the aircraft and the ground plane inside is a bad idea that screws up the signal.Is any of this correct? What did you guys do? Regards,Jeff Williams===========st Email Forum -pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List===========p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -ums.matronics.com===========p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -matronics.com===========p; - List Contribution Web Site -p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.http://www.matronics.com/contribution===========



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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:42 am    Post subject: Ground plane question... Reply with quote

On 2019-08-17, at 04:14, Jeffrey Williams <jeffwill55(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Quote:
I am installing instruments in my Europa XS and was told all transponders need a ground plane. My research indicates a 12 inch circle of thin copper or aluminum will do, but that the ground plane and the antenna should be outside the aircraft so things like the engine and other metal stuff doesn’t interfere with the signal. I have a Mode C and a Mode S to deal with…and a GPS and Comm antenna too, but those don’t seem to need a ground plane. I am being informed that these antennas need to be at least 40 inches apart as well. Also, I have been told that putting the antenna itselfoutside the aircraft and the ground plane inside is a bad idea that screws up the signal.


Jeff - my Trig manual says:

“When a conventional aircraft monopole antenna is used it relies on a ground plane for correct behaviour. For ideal performance the ground plane should be very large compared to the wavelength of the transmission, which is 275mm. In a metal skinned aircraft this is usually easy to accomplish, but is more difficult in a composite or fabric skinned aircraft. In these cases a metallic ground plane should be fabricated and fitted under the antenna.

As the ground plane is made smaller, the actual dimensions of the ground plane become more critical, and small multiples of the wavelength should be avoided, as should circles. Rectangles or squares are much less likely to create a critical dimension that resonates with the transmissions. The smallest practical ground plane is a square around 120mm per side; as the size increases the performance may actually get worse, but will be better by the time the ground plane is 700mm on each side. Anything much larger than that size is unlikely to show significant further improvement.

The thickness of the material used to construct the ground plane is not critical, providing it is sufficiently conductive. A variety of proprietary mesh and grid solutions are available. Heavyweight cooking foil meets the technical requirements, but obviously needs to be properly supported.”

You can see what I did at:

http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/transponder_installation.php

I made the minimum-size ground plane (120mm x 120mm) from 0.4mm copper sheet.

Caveat emptor - this has not yet been used in anger as the whole thing hasn’t flown yet!

in friendship

Rowland

| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson


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