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Landing lights & relays

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tomcostanza(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:56 am Post subject: Landing lights & relays

What is your opinion of using mechanical relays to implement wig-wag flashing of landing lights?  

I would like to use a rotary switch with the following pattern: off, wig-wag, landing, taxi (4 positions). Otherwise I would need to use 3 toggle switches and a complicated switch operation. Using transistors would lower the voltage at the light by about 1.5 volts. To confuse the issue further, I have wingtip landing and taxi lights (1 landing and 1 taxi on each wing) 4 lights total. Using relays would solve my problems, but I don't know the longevity of the relay.  

What are your thoughts? 

Thanks, 

Tom Costanza 

RV-7A Fuselage

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N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: Landing lights & relays

Tom,

  

 One way to look at this is that if landing/taxi  lights (nor wig/wag) are not required for night flight, so what does it  matter if the relay fails?  One landing without the benefit of them?   I would just get a quality relay and let the longevity concern take care of  itself - don't plan to do much night flying anyway.

  

 Do you preflight check all the lights and wig/wag  function?  (This is rhetorical. If not, then how do you not know whether a  light has burned out, a more likely event that losing a relay, I think.  I  would check light function only if I thought I would have the potential to use  them during a flight.  Obviously, if you use wig-wag as a safety feature  during normal flights, one would check proper operation before  takeoff.)

  

 Regards, 

  

 Doug Windhorn

 [quote]   ---

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klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: Landing lights & relays

Not sure how many lights you have Tom. I have a landing light and a taxi 

light in both wingtips. Four lamps total. One toggle switch turns on 

both landing lights. Another toggle switch turns on both taxi lights. A 

third toggle switch selects whether the two taxi lights stay on steady 

or wig wag when the taxi lights are on. No relays, diodes, or 

transistors. Common cheap toggle switches and an off the shelf cheap 

automotive mechancal flasher (OK I guess there is a relay inside the 

flasher    Seemed pretty simple to me. For daytime operation all I 

ever touch is the taxi light switch.

Ken



tomcostanza(at)comcast.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   What is your opinion of using mechanical relays to implement wig-wag 

 flashing of landing lights?



 I would like to use a rotary switch with the following pattern: off, 

 wig-wag, landing, taxi (4 positions). Otherwise I would need to use 3 

 toggle switches and a complicated switch operation. Using transistors 

 would lower the voltage at the light by about 1.5 volts. To confuse 

 the issue further, I have wingtip landing and taxi lights (1 landing 

 and 1 taxi on each wing) 4 lights total. Using relays would solve my 

 problems, but I don't know the longevity of the relay.



 What are your thoughts?



 Thanks,



 Tom Costanza



 RV-7A Fuselage

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tomcostanza(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: Landing lights & relays

[b][quote]Doug,That's reasonable as long as the relay doesn't go South every couple months.I don't spend all my time replacing relays.  The other concern was RFI.I also don't want to listen to the lights flashing or have them interferewith navigation.Thanks for the reply.  If you have any further thoughts, I would be very interested.Regards,Tom Costanza Tom,  One way to look at this is that if landing/taxi lights (nor wig/wag) are  not required for night flight, so what does it matter if the relay  fails?  One landing without the benefit of them?  I would just get a  quality relay and let the longevity concern take care of itself - don't  plan to do much night flying anyway.  Do you preflight check all the lights and wig/wag function?  (This is  rhetorical. If not, then how do you not know whether a light has burned  out, a more likely event that losing a relay, I think.  I would check  light function only if I thought I would have the potential to use them  during a flight.  Obviously, if you use wig-wag as a safety feature  during normal flights, one would check proper operation before takeoff.)  Regards,   Doug Windhorn   ---

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tomcostanza(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject: Landing lights & relays

Hi Ken,

  

 That's the configuration I'll have.  I started with that approach, but wanted to keep the switch count to a minimum.  I guess you pay your money and take your choice.  I ordered some spare bulbs and think I'll do an experiment and see what happens.

  

 Thanks for the reply.

  

 Regards,

 Tom Costanza

  

 Not sure how many lights you have Tom. I have a landing light and a taxi 

light in both wingtips. Four lamps total. One toggle switch turns on 

both landing lights. Another toggle switch turns on both taxi lights. A 

third toggle switch selects whether the two taxi lights stay on steady 

or wig wag when the taxi lights are on. No relays, diodes, or 

transistors. Common cheap toggle switches and an off the shelf cheap 

automotive mechancal flasher (OK I guess there is a relay inside the 

flasher    Seemed pretty simple to me. For daytime operation all I 

ever touch is the taxi light switch.

Ken



tomcostanza(at)comcast.net ([email]tomcostanza(at)comcast.net?subject=Re:%20Landing%20lights%20&%20relays&replyto=44BA83C9.9080404(at)albedo.net[/email]) wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   What is your opinion of using mechanical relays to implement wig-wag 

 flashing of landing lights?



 I would like to use a rotary switch with   the f ollowing pattern: off, 

 wig-wag, landing, taxi (4 positions). Otherwise I would need to use 3 

 toggle switches and a complicated switch operation. Using transistors 

 would lower the voltage at the light by about 1.5 volts. To confuse 

 the issue further, I have wingtip landing and taxi lights (1 landing 

 and 1 taxi on each wing) 4 lights total. Using relays would solve my 

 problems, but I don't know the longevity of the relay.



 What are your thoughts?



 Thanks,



 Tom Costanza



 RV-7A Fuselage



 	  Quote:

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FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:41 am Post subject: Landing lights & relays

In a message dated 7/16/06 9:58:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

tomcostanza(at)comcast.net writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   What is your opinion of using mechanical relays to implement wig-wag 

flashing 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   of landing lights? 

  I would like to use a rotary switch with the following pattern: off, 

wig-wag,
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    landing, taxi (4 positions). Otherwise I would need to use 3 toggle 

switches 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   and a complicated switch operation. Using transistors would lower the 

voltage 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   at the light by about 1.5 volts. To confuse the issue further, I have 

wingtip 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   landing and taxi lights (1 landing and 1 taxi on each wing) 4 lights total. 

 Using relays would solve my problems, but I don't know the longevity of the 

 relay. 

  What are your thoughts?

  Thanks,

  Tom Costanza

  RV-7A Fuselage

================================
	


Tom:



My thoughts:

1 - NO Rotary switch.

a> Cost 

b> Why the cost?  Because it would have to be a heavy duty silver plated 

rotary switch.

c> Size probably would be large due to the current handling problem.



2 - Not easy to repair.



3 - If you have a failure on one contact you would have to replace the entire 

rotary switch.



4 - You can do it with two toggle switches:

a> A three position switch ... OFF - LANDING LIGHTS - TAXI LIGHTS

When the Taxi lights come on the Landing Lights CAN go off.  This would be up 

to you and the current handling capability of the alternator.

b> Wig - Wag Switch.



4 - A relay type Wig - Wag system would work, BUT! ! !   You are introducing 

a strong point for:

a> Failure - Lots of Opening and Closing of the relay

b> Lots of NOISE - Static, Lots of Opening and Closing of the relay points 

causing small arcs.

c> You will need additional filtering and spark suppression for the relay 

contacts.

d> You will need to install the relay using plug in sockets.



5 - I would go with a solid state system.



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

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KBelue(at)drs-tem.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:12 am Post subject: Landing lights & relays

I have used a three-position switch for: ON, wig-wag, OFF. This controlled a

$19 relay-type wig-wag from Gall's to drive two 100W bulbs. I have used this

for 4.5 yrs, 700 hrs. If it's hazy I leave the wig-wag on for the whole

flight, hours at a time. I have never had any noise, extra filters, and have

never replaced anything.



Kevin 

RV-6A

RV-10

 

[quote] --

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N1deltawhiskey(at)comcast
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: Landing lights & relays

Tom,

  

 Keep in mind that I am not a proponent of relays in critical circuits. Having said that, I would not be uncomfortable with your relay circuit proposal for your system.  The other thing I would look at is the consequences of the possible failure modes.

  

 It is not clear to me why you would think a relay would go belly up any more frequently than a toggle switch. Junk is junk, but a quality relay should have a similar reliability as a quality switch.  Why you would expect more RFI in the relay than in other circuit component?  How would a relay interfer with navigation or cause noise in your audio system?  A relay is a switch which is electrically activated.  Do you have the same concerns about your battery contactors (a relay) or starter relay?  

  

 I am using manual switches in my light system and am comfortable with that approach.  But I would not exclude or be uncomfortable with the use of relays in this system either. 

  

 Regards, Doug 

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: tomcostanza(at)comcast.net 

 [b][quote]Doug,That's reasonable as long as the relay doesn't go South every couple months.I don't spend all my time replacing relays.  The other concern was RFI.I also don't want to listen to the lights flashing or have them interferewith navigation.Thanks for the reply.  If you have any further thoughts, I would be very interested.Regards,Tom Costanza Tom,  One way to look at this is that if landing/taxi lights (nor wig/wag) are  not required for night flight, so what does it matter if the relay  fails?  One landing without the benefit of them?  I would just get a  quality relay and let the longevity concern take care of itself - don't  plan to do much night flying anyway.  Do you preflight check all the lights and wig/wag function?  (This is  rhetorical. If not, then how do you not know whether a light has burned  out, a more likely event that losing a relay, I think.  I would check  light function only if I thought I would have the potential to use them  during a flight.  Obviously, if you use wig-wag as a safety feature  during normal flights, one would check proper operation before takeoff.)  Regards,   Doug Windhorn   ---

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Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Landing lights & relays

I sell these by the bushels to RV builders and owners on my website. Please take a look. You can spend less on a Wig-wag, but you can't buy one that is smaller or easier to use.

"No one travelling on a business trip would be missed if he failed to arrive."

  - Thorstein Veblen

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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

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