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6A gross wt

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Charles Heathco

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 201

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:46 pm Post subject: 6A gross wt

something I have wondered about but never asked. My  plane builder listed the GW at 1650, empty is 1080, but I had seen other  ones at 1750. I have been told the 6a has safely carried up to 1850, even tho GW  at 1750. I once unknowingly carried a psg who later told me he weighed 235lb,  didn’t look it, but landed much harder that usual. I usually carry 200 lb psr  max with full fuel and min baggage. Over that I usually carry 3/4 to 1/2  fuel. 

 as a mater of fact I have not had anyone with me  over 150 lb for past 2 years.. I have weighed 185 for several years. And at 75  that is not easy to do. [img]cid:C83BAAD9E5BF4685A78B3362B345C31C(at)charlie[/img]   BTW, knowing that Art xxxx racing  in cherokee 140 used to carry his psgr in back seat, so when I did my first race  I had 80 lb of batteries in bagage which gave me extra 5mph. Hope to get to  bottom of this gross  thing. Yhanks, Charlie

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vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:31 pm Post subject: 6A gross wt

I established and tested for 1900 lb utility gross weight with thirty hours on the Hobbs under the following condition, because I wanted to ensure adequate margin for cross country flights loaded up with baggage.



I weighed 185 lb at the time and my 241 lb buddy was along in case he needed to grab one of the two 50 lb bags of sand out of the baggage area and hold it in his lap.  We worked our way up to this point slowly and performed all of our stalls and landings.  I have an O-360-A1A and constant speed prop

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:35 pm Post subject: 6A gross wt

As I understand it, you are pretty much stuck with what the original 

builder asked for. I don't know what a DAR would have to do to get you a 

changed gross wt.



On 11/21/2015 4:45 PM, cheathco(at)cox.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   something I have wondered about but never asked. My plane builder 

 listed the GW at 1650, empty is 1080, but I had seen other ones at 

 1750. I have been told the 6a has safely carried up to 1850, even tho 

 GW at 1750. I once unknowingly carried a psg who later told me he 

 weighed 235lb, didn’t look it, but landed much harder that usual. I 

 usually carry 200 lb psr max with full fuel and min baggage. Over 

 that I usually carry 3/4 to 1/2 fuel.

 as a mater of fact I have not had anyone with me over 150 lb for past 

 2 years.. I have weighed 185 for several years. And at 75 that is not 

 easy to do. Smile emoticon   BTW, knowing that Art xxxx racing in 

 cherokee 140 used to carry his psgr in back seat, so when I did my 

 first race I had 80 lb of batteries in bagage which gave me extra 

 5mph. Hope to get to bottom of this gross  thing. Yhanks, Charlie

 <https://www.avast.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> 

 	This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.

 www.avast.com 

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:15 pm Post subject: 6A gross wt

Unless there has been a very recent change in the regs, the owner can 

raise gross weight by treating it as a major modification. Depending on 

which version of operating limitations are on the plane, it could be as 

simple as logging a return to phase one, flying 5 hrs of tests at the 

increased gross weight, and logging the successful results with a return 

to phase two (normal operation). Newer versions require notifying the 

local FSDO & getting their approval for the proposed test area (which 

might well be the same as the original test area).



Not saying anyone should; just that it can be done. As mentioned, there 

are lots of 6's & 6A's with higher than 1600 lb gross weights in their 

oplims.



Tangentially related to  the subject of best glide, Van once wrote an 

article about best climb rate in the short wing RV's. He indicated that 

due to increased induced drag of the low aspect ratio wing at low 

airspeeds, the 4/6/7/8 would climb at almost identical rates at anywhere 

between around 90 mph & 130 mph (rough numbers from my flaky memory). 

His suggestion was for normal (not obstacle clearance) climb to be at 

around 130 mph because the rate would be the same but a lot more ground 

could be covered. I've never bothered to test it, but it seems 

reasonable that a slightly higher speed might extend the *range* of a 

glide, as well.



Charlie

On 11/21/2015 8:33 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 As I understand it, you are pretty much stuck with what the original 

 builder asked for. I don't know what a DAR would have to do to get you 

 a changed gross wt.



 On 11/21/2015 4:45 PM, cheathco(at)cox.net wrote:

> something I have wondered about but never asked. My plane builder 

> listed the GW at 1650, empty is 1080, but I had seen other ones at 

> 1750. I have been told the 6a has safely carried up to 1850, even tho 

> GW at 1750. I once unknowingly carried a psg who later told me he 

> weighed 235lb, didn’t look it, but landed much harder that usual. I 

> usually carry 200 lb psr max with full fuel and min baggage. Over 

> that I usually carry 3/4 to 1/2 fuel.

> as a mater of fact I have not had anyone with me over 150 lb for past 

> 2 years.. I have weighed 185 for several years. And at 75 that is not 

> easy to do. Smile emoticon   BTW, knowing that Art xxxx racing in 

> cherokee 140 used to carry his psgr in back seat, so when I did my 

> first race I had 80 lb of batteries in bagage which gave me extra 

> 5mph. Hope to get to bottom of this gross thing. Yhanks, Charlie

> <https://www.avast.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> 

>     This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by 

> Avast.

> www.avast.com 

> <https://www.avast.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>

n146wb(at)cfu.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:12 am Post subject: 6A gross wt

I was concerned about the 1600 lb gross weight that Van's had on my -6.  I

knew that the limit was 1650 on the 6A.  I worked with my DAR when I was

doing the paperwork and we called Van's to find out if they would allow 1650

to be used on the 6.  They, in essence, approved it so the DAR allowed me to

use that figure.  This was in 2007, so I don't know if they would do that

today.  Bottom line, my "certified" gross weight is set at 1650 which allows

my wife and I to fly with full tanks and still have 50lbs for baggage.



Warren   



--

rv6awingman(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:39 am Post subject: 6A Gross Wt

I've been flying my RV-6A for 5 years now and the gross wt is above 1600, approved when inspected. Â  I re-calculated what the GW limit would be in the Utility category, based on the aerobatic wt published by Vans of 1350# if my memory serves. Â  Vans has commented that consideration to the design limit of the gear should be considered.Â  So when operating above 1600# I'm very "gentle" with my landings, roll out and taxi. Always keep the nose wheel up on landing and roll out.Â  Just saying........

Marty N826ME

Time: 03:46:38 PM PST USFrom: <cheathco(at)cox.net (cheathco(at)cox.net)>Subject: 6A gross wtsomething I have wondered about but never asked. My plane builder listed the GW at 1650, empty is 1080, but I had seen other ones at 1750. I have beenÂ told the 6a has safely carried up to 1850, even tho GW at 1750. I once unknowingly carried a psg who later told me he weighed 235lb, didn't look it,but landed much harder that usual. I usually carry 200 lb psr max with fullÂ fuel and min baggage. Over that I usually carry 3/4 to 1/2 fuel.as a mater of fact I have not had anyone with me over 150 lb for past 2 years.. I have weighed 185 for several years. And at 75 that is not easy to do=2EÂ  Â  BTW, knowing that Art xxxx racing in cherokee 140 used to carry hispsgr in back seat, so when I did my first race I had 80 lb of batteries inbagage which gave me extra 5mph. Hope to get to bottom of this grossÂ  thing=2E Yhanks, Charlie---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:50 am Post subject: 6A Gross Wt

I believe several folks with various RVs have calculated and gotten 

approved separate aerobatic, utility and normal gross wt limits. Vans 

tends to be very conservative with gross wt, especially because he wants 

the book figures to allow use of his farm strip at something like 600 ft.

I don't think there is any need for input from Vans or other kit 

manufacturer for a DAR granting a higher gross wt if there is good logic 

behind that higher wt and it keeps the c.g. within an acceptable envelope.



On 11/22/2015 6:37 AM, MLE wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I've been flying my RV-6A for 5 years now and the gross wt is above 

 1600, approved when inspected.   I re-calculated what the GW limit 

 would be in the Utility category, based on the aerobatic wt published 

 by Vans of 1350# if my memory serves.   Vans has commented that 

 consideration to the design limit of the gear should be considered.  

 So when operating above 1600# I'm very "gentle" with my landings, roll 

 out and taxi. Always keep the nose wheel up on landing and roll out.  

 Just saying.........

 Marty N826ME



 Time: 03:46:38 PM PST US

 From: <cheathco(at)cox.net <mailto:cheathco(at)cox.net>>

 Subject: 6A gross wt

 something I have wondered about but never asked. My plane builder 

 listed th

 e GW at 1650, empty is 1080, but I had seen other ones at 1750. I have 

 been

  told the 6a has safely carried up to 1850, even tho GW at 1750. I 

 once unk

 nowingly carried a psg who later told me he weighed 235lb, didn't look it,

 but landed much harder that usual. I usually carry 200 lb psr max with 

 full

  fuel and min baggage. Over that I usually carry 3/4 to 1/2 fuel.

 as a mater of fact I have not had anyone with me over 150 lb for past 

 2 yea

 rs.. I have weighed 185 for several years. And at 75 that is not easy 

 to do

 =2E    BTW, knowing that Art xxxx racing in cherokee 140 used to carry his

 psgr in back seat, so when I did my first race I had 80 lb of batteries in

 bagage which gave me extra 5mph. Hope to get to bottom of this gross  

 thing

 =2E Yhanks, Charlie



 ---

 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

 https://www.avast.com/antivirus

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

jhnstniii(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:50 pm Post subject: 6A gross wt

In my RV-6A at my all-up cross-country weight of 1800 lbs, and 2550 rpm (prop pulled back a bit due to rpm prop restriction), with a 180 hp 0-360-A1A and Hartzell blended airfoil prop, I find that my best rate of climb is about 120 knots.  I find that the short, broad cord wing has considerable induced drag if I try to fly slower (higher AOA) when I am heavy.  Plus any time the temps are warm I need that kind of airspeed for engine cooling in a prolonged climb to cruise altitude.  Depending on air temperature, this results in a rate of climb of anywhere from 600 fpm on a 90 degree day to about 1300 feet per minute on a 40 degree day.  CHTs stay in the green, but when I am IFR, obstacle clearance must be paid attention to.   600 fpm at 120 knots is only 300 feet per nautical mile.  

    

   

  LeRoy Johnston RV-6A Esperanza, 970 hours.     

   

   

  --

Gary.A.Sobek

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Location: SoCAL USA

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:50 pm Post subject: 6A gross wt

What determines the gross weight of a homebuilt aircraft? 

Here is what EAA has to say:



http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-communities-and-interests/homebuilt-aircraft-and-homebuilt-aircraft-kits/frequently-asked-questions/gross-weight



Copy/Paste from the above link:

"From a regulatory standpoint, the builder of a homebuilt is in fact the "manufacturer" of that individual aircraft, and is allowed to set the weight limits, including gross weight, anyplace he/she cares to."



________________________________________

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>

Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 4:14 AM

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: 6A gross wt






Unless there has been a very recent change in the regs, the owner can

raise gross weight by treating it as a major modification. Depending on

which version of operating limitations are on the plane, it could be as

simple as logging a return to phase one, flying 5 hrs of tests at the

increased gross weight, and logging the successful results with a return

to phase two (normal operation). Newer versions require notifying the

local FSDO & getting their approval for the proposed test area (which

might well be the same as the original test area).



Not saying anyone should; just that it can be done. As mentioned, there

are lots of 6's & 6A's with higher than 1600 lb gross weights in their

oplims.



Tangentially related to  the subject of best glide, Van once wrote an

article about best climb rate in the short wing RV's. He indicated that

due to increased induced drag of the low aspect ratio wing at low

airspeeds, the 4/6/7/8 would climb at almost identical rates at anywhere

between around 90 mph & 130 mph (rough numbers from my flaky memory).

His suggestion was for normal (not obstacle clearance) climb to be at

around 130 mph because the rate would be the same but a lot more ground

could be covered. I've never bothered to test it, but it seems

reasonable that a slightly higher speed might extend the *range* of a

glide, as well.



Charlie

On 11/21/2015 8:33 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 As I understand it, you are pretty much stuck with what the original

 builder asked for. I don't know what a DAR would have to do to get you

 a changed gross wt.



 On 11/21/2015 4:45 PM, cheathco(at)cox.net wrote:

> something I have wondered about but never asked. My plane builder

> listed the GW at 1650, empty is 1080, but I had seen other ones at

> 1750. I have been told the 6a has safely carried up to 1850, even tho

> GW at 1750. I once unknowingly carried a psg who later told me he

> weighed 235lb, didn’t look it, but landed much harder that usual. I

> usually carry 200 lb psr max with full fuel and min baggage. Over

> that I usually carry 3/4 to 1/2 fuel.

> as a mater of fact I have not had anyone with me over 150 lb for past

> 2 years.. I have weighed 185 for several years. And at 75 that is not

> easy to do. Smile emoticon   BTW, knowing that Art xxxx racing in

> cherokee 140 used to carry his psgr in back seat, so when I did my

> first race I had 80 lb of batteries in bagage which gave me extra

> 5mph. Hope to get to bottom of this gross thing. Yhanks, Charlie

> <https://www.avast.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>

>     This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by

> Avast.

> www.avast.com

> <https://www.avast.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>

vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: 6A gross wt

Correct and it behooves the manufacturer to have actually tested the claimed weight condition and found it to be reasonable.  I believe that the original RV-6A airframe is pretty robust.  The 6 spar is good for 11g and the gear is good for 6g at the Van's claimed gross weight.  IMO probably the weakest part of the airframe short of the landing gear is the horizontal stab, so don't go doing high g pullups or outside loops.

   

  The aircraft at any weight could be prone to failure of any element if proper precautions are not taken (see Ralph Nader's "Unsafe and any Speed" and the story of failure of Van's own RV-8 at the hands of a potential buyer).  Safety margin needs to be considered and a reasonable level of care taken in all flying endeavors.

   

  (he says, as if preaching to the choir...)

   

  -GV

   

   

  --

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:22 pm Post subject: 6A gross wt

I think we all agree that a builder can request whatever gross wt they 

want from DAR. They need to show calculated W&B for several loading 

scenarios to show they can stay within the c.g. limits. DAR will use his 

judgement in how much he will go above kit maker's recommendation.

What is not so clear is what it takes to get a revised gross wt later, 

after say Phase I, and who can approve such a change.



On 11/22/2015 2:49 PM, RV6 Flyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 What determines the gross weight of a homebuilt aircraft?

 Here is what EAA has to say:



 http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-communities-and-interests/homebuilt-aircraft-and-homebuilt-aircraft-kits/frequently-asked-questions/gross-weight



 Copy/Paste from the above link:

 "From a regulatory standpoint, the builder of a homebuilt is in fact the "manufacturer" of that individual aircraft, and is allowed to set the weight limits, including gross weight, anyplace he/she cares to."



 ________________________________________

 From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>

 Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 4:14 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 6A gross wt



 



 Unless there has been a very recent change in the regs, the owner can

 raise gross weight by treating it as a major modification. Depending on

 which version of operating limitations are on the plane, it could be as

 simple as logging a return to phase one, flying 5 hrs of tests at the

 increased gross weight, and logging the successful results with a return

 to phase two (normal operation). Newer versions require notifying the

 local FSDO & getting their approval for the proposed test area (which

 might well be the same as the original test area).



 Not saying anyone should; just that it can be done. As mentioned, there

 are lots of 6's & 6A's with higher than 1600 lb gross weights in their

 oplims.



 Tangentially related to  the subject of best glide, Van once wrote an

 article about best climb rate in the short wing RV's. He indicated that

 due to increased induced drag of the low aspect ratio wing at low

 airspeeds, the 4/6/7/8 would climb at almost identical rates at anywhere

 between around 90 mph & 130 mph (rough numbers from my flaky memory).

 His suggestion was for normal (not obstacle clearance) climb to be at

 around 130 mph because the rate would be the same but a lot more ground

 could be covered. I've never bothered to test it, but it seems

 reasonable that a slightly higher speed might extend the *range* of a

 glide, as well.



 Charlie

 On 11/21/2015 8:33 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

> 

>

> As I understand it, you are pretty much stuck with what the original

> builder asked for. I don't know what a DAR would have to do to get you

> a changed gross wt.

>

> On 11/21/2015 4:45 PM, cheathco(at)cox.net wrote:

>> something I have wondered about but never asked. My plane builder

>> listed the GW at 1650, empty is 1080, but I had seen other ones at

>> 1750. I have been told the 6a has safely carried up to 1850, even tho

>> GW at 1750. I once unknowingly carried a psg who later told me he

>> weighed 235lb, didn’t look it, but landed much harder that usual. I

>> usually carry 200 lb psr max with full fuel and min baggage. Over

>> that I usually carry 3/4 to 1/2 fuel.

>> as a mater of fact I have not had anyone with me over 150 lb for past

>> 2 years.. I have weighed 185 for several years. And at 75 that is not

>> easy to do. Smile emoticon   BTW, knowing that Art xxxx racing in

>> cherokee 140 used to carry his psgr in back seat, so when I did my

>> first race I had 80 lb of batteries in bagage which gave me extra

>> 5mph. Hope to get to bottom of this gross thing. Yhanks, Charlie

>> <https://www.avast.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>

>>      This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by

>> Avast.

>> www.avast.com

>> <https://www.avast.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>

>>

>>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

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