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Main Air Tanks
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dabear



Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Minimize the ideas and plans of others? I thought we were discussing the merits of each side in a mature fashion.

Sorry for minimizing anyone...

Count me out, I'm outta here

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dantpayne(at)icloud.com
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:50 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Let's think "objectively"...

Doug is offering a product that will be a direct replacement part.

That means during the next annual inspection, instead of pulling, cleaning, inspecting, treating, and reinstalling the tank...you simply pull the old out & install the new Doug Sapp supplied item. DONE.

I don't know how much your time is worth, but if somebody brings me an airplane to "refit/remount/reconnect" a new system...I'm going to charge a lot more than $700.

Just my $.02

Keep 'em Flyin',

Dan Payne
Owner, Pilot, A&P-IA
(423)-544-8946

Eagle Works Aviation
Dallas Bay Skypark
1824 E Crabtree Road
Hixson, TN 37343

"Where Airworthiness Means Business!"
[quote] On Mar 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, DaBear <dabear(at)damned.org> wrote:



Minimize the ideas and plans of others? I thought we were discussing the merits of each side in a mature fashion.

Sorry for minimizing anyone...

Count me out, I'm outta here



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McFly



Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Scuba is not an option in a Yak 50, not sure about a 52.

Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Mar 3, 2015, at 8:28 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>

Yes, they are your airplanes and each will do as he wants. Yes, countless modifications have been done to these airplanes without any ill effect. I guess I'm just more skeptical than many, particularly with regards to structural integrity of the airframe under loadon these 30-40 year old airplanes. I'm pretty sure a Scuba tank of the same volume, not pressure, is going to weigh a whole lot more than the original tank or a SS replacement tank. That would entail a stronger support system, especially when one takes into account G loading. That is why I eluded to structural considerations.

But, to each his own. I too support Doug and in this case, support his direct replacement SS tank even if it costs a bit more.
Dennis

A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1

On 3/3/2015 8:37 AM, DaBear wrote:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)>

First, let me say I support Doug, always have, always will.  He has supported this community for decades.

Agreed, there are a few things that need to be considered to change to SCUBA. However, let's start with the cost of new bottles. If I have to replace the main, I'm close to needing to replace the emergency, that’s $700 each or $1400.

Now, let's consider that Doug designs and builds a replacement hold down for 2 scuba bottles and the air connections. Worst case it's probably around $200 (for 60 sets - let's play apples to apples). Then we add it up...
$200 --- Hold down and connection
$320 ---- 4 hours for removal and install
$400 ---- 2 SCUBA bottles
$ 80 --- 1 hour for new W&B

As to the paperwork in the US. I could argue that there is no appreciable effect on W&B, etc. however, let's say there is and you have to/want to submit the paperwork, No different than the paperwork for the upgraded engine, fuel tanks, smoke system, etc.
Come on, better tanks, MUCH higher safety margin since the tanks support 3k air pressure. You can go with aluminum tanks which would weigh about the same. So the big concern is attachment and structural support. Please remember what used to be there in the form of radio, etc.

Or $1,000 for a system that is better than before, easier to maintain, and now cheaper and easier to test and replace. Remember, you take the tank to the local dive shop for annual testing if you want and find a problem go get a new tank for less than HALF of the cost of an old CJ/Yak tank.

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_________________
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A - N134FA
KDVT Hangar 33-13

Cell - 260.402.1740

Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.flyams.com
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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:55 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes.  Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO.  Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims.  Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?
Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel:  I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.
Not DOT approved:  That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???
Which tanks will be made first:  CJ6 main tanks will be the first to be available.
Will we do Yak 52 and 50 tanks also:  Yes but first we have to obtain a sample of both.  Any one out there who might have a non airworthy Yak 50 or 52 main air tank which we could use??  I would be happy to pay what ever is fair.  The sooner we can obtain the samples the sooner we can make this happen.
Again, thank you all for your opinions, good bad or indifferent, they are all important to me.  
Best from Omak,
Doug 
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 4:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen

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bwade154(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:55 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Keep in mind that the paint gun industry has carbon fiber bottles for there shooting pleasure, smaller lighter high pressure why reinvent what can be bought? Certified country's can buy our used bottles for the cost of install win - win
Bill Wade

From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: Main Air Tanks


--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>

Yes, they are your airplanes and each will do as he wants. Yes,
countless modifications have been done to these airplanes without any
ill effect. I guess I'm just more skeptical than many, particularly
with regards to structural integrity of the airframe under loadon these
30-40 year old airplanes. I'm pretty sure a Scuba tank of the same
volume, not pressure, is going to weigh a whole lot more than the
original tank or a SS replacement tank. That would entail a stronger
support system, especially when one takes into account G loading. That
is why I eluded to structural considerations.

But, to each his own. I too support Doug and in this case, support his
direct replacement SS tank even if it costs a bit more.
Dennis

A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1

On 3/3/2015 8:37 AM, DaBear wrote:
[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)>

First, let me say I support Doug, always have, always will. He has supported this community for decades.

Agreed, there are a few things that need to be considered to change to SCUBA. However, let's start with the cost of new bottles. If I have to replace the main, I'm close to needing to replace the emergency, that’s $700 each or $1400.

Now, let's consider that Doug designs and builds a replacement hold down for 2 scuba bottles and the air connections. Worst case it's probably around $200 (for 60 sets - let's play apples to apples). Then we add it up...
$200 --- Hold down and connection
$320 ---- 4 hours for removal and install
$400 ---- 2 SCUBA bottles
$ 80 --- 1 hour for new W&B

As to the paperwork in the US. I could argue that there is no appreciable effect on W&B, etc. however, let's say there is and you have to/want to submit the paperwork, No different than the paperwork for the upgraded engine, fuel tanks, smoke system, etc.
Come on, better tanks, MUCH higher safety margin since the tanks support 3k air pressure.  You can go with aluminum tanks which would weigh about the same. So the big concern is attachment and structural support. Please remember what used to be there in the form of radio, etc.

Or $1,000 for a system that is better than before, easier to maintain, and now cheaper and easier to test and replace. Remember, you take the tank to the local dive shop for annual testing if you want and find a problem go get a new tank for less than HALF of the cost of an old CJ/Yak tank.

Come on, we've modified these planes from one end to the other. M14P/PF, new exhaust, oil shut off, larger aluminum water trap, pre-oiler, fuel tanks, smoke systems, etc. and on and on. We've done that to improve performance, improve safety, and make it easier and safer to maintain.
Replacing a tank with a more expensive tank with no other improvements....at least really, seriously, think about an improvement

No offense was intended in the above post, please don't take any.  They are your airplanes. Make your own decision.

Thanks,

Bear
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Ernie



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:03 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Doug,

I have wanted to hydro check my tanks using local sources, and gave up after calling around 20 places across Fl. No one wanted to touch a non DOT bottle, not to mention the fact that they didn't have any way to attach their fittings to the bottle.
Ernie

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:54 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes.  Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO.  Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims.  Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?
Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel:  I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.
Not DOT approved:  That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???

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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:04 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Sigh.....No good deed goes unpunished, Doug.

Blitz Fox
415-307-2405

[quote] On Mar 3, 2015, at 10:54 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes. Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO. Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims. Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?

Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel: I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.

Not DOT approved: That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???

Which tanks will be made first: CJ6 main tanks will be the first to be available.

Will we do Yak 52 and 50 tanks also: Yes but first we have to obtain a sample of both. Any one out there who might have a non airworthy Yak 50 or 52 main air tank which we could use?? I would be happy to pay what ever is fair. The sooner we can obtain the samples the sooner we can make this happen


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:10 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Doug,
As an FYI, the 52 and 50 main air tanks are not the same size. The 50's tank just a bit smaller than the 52's.
Dennis


From: doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Main Air Tanks


Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes. Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO. Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims. Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?
Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel: I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.
Not DOT approved: That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???
Which tanks will be made first: CJ6 main tanks will be the first to be available.
Will we do Yak 52 and 50 tanks also: Yes but first we have to obtain a sample of both. Any one out there who might have a non airworthy Yak 50 or 52 main air tank which we could use?? I would be happy to pay what ever is fair. The sooner we can obtain the samples the sooner we can make this happen.
Again, thank you all for your opinions, good bad or indifferent, they are all important to me.
Best from Omak,
Doug
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 4:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen

Quote:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Ernie,A search of the yak list will give you at least two places to have your tanks checked, one out here on the west coast and another in Columbus NB.  I will be happy to send you the info if you cannot find it.
Doug
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Doug,

I have wanted to hydro check my tanks using local sources, and gave up after calling around 20 places across Fl. No one wanted to touch a non DOT bottle, not to mention the fact that they didn't have any way to attach their fittings to the bottle.
Ernie

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:54 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes.  Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO.  Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims.  Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?
Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel:  I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.
Not DOT approved:  That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???



Quote:


et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:18 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Dennis,That is what I have come to understand also, hence the request for a core to use as a sample.  
Thanks much,
Doug
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:00 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote]Doug,
As an FYI, the 52 and 50 main air tanks are not the same size.  The 50's tank just a bit smaller than the 52's.
Dennis


From: doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Main Air Tanks


Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes.  Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO.  Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims.  Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?
Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel:  I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.
Not DOT approved:  That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???
Which tanks will be made first:  CJ6 main tanks will be the first to be available.
Will we do Yak 52 and 50 tanks also:  Yes but first we have to obtain a sample of both.  Any one out there who might have a non airworthy Yak 50 or 52 main air tank which we could use??  I would be happy to pay what ever is fair.  The sooner we can obtain the samples the sooner we can make this happen.
Again, thank you all for your opinions, good bad or indifferent, they are all important to me.  
Best from Omak,
Doug 
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 4:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen

Quote:


et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution







Quote:


et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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Ernie



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:20 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

This is the last thing I'm going to say on the subject. I never bad mouthed Doug's idea, and said from the beginning it is the overall best solution. I just inquired on whether alternatives were feasible.

Whats the point of this list if one can't discuss shit like this without getting ones head bit off?
This us vs them crap is stupid, not much has changed in 12 years.
Ernie
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Sigh.....No good deed goes unpunished, Doug.

Blitz Fox[url=tel:415-307-2405]415-307-2405[/url]
On Mar 3, 2015, at 10:54 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes.  Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO.  Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims.  Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?
Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel:  I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.
Not DOT approved:  That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???
Which tanks will be made first:  CJ6 main tanks will be the first to be available.
Will we do Yak 52 and 50 tanks also:  Yes but first we have to obtain a sample of both.  Any one out there who might have a non airworthy Yak 50 or 52 main air tank which we could use??  I would be happy to pay what ever is fair.  The sooner we can obtain the samples the sooner we can make this happen.
Again, thank you all for your opinions, good bad or indifferent, they are all important to me.  
Best from Omak,
Doug 
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 4:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen

Quote:


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ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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Ernie



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:21 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Thanks Doug.

Ernie
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]This is the last thing I'm going to say on the subject. I never bad mouthed Doug's idea, and said from the beginning it is the overall best solution. I just inquired on whether alternatives were feasible.

Whats the point of this list if one can't discuss shit like this without getting ones head bit off?
This us vs them crap is stupid, not much has changed in 12 years.
Ernie
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Sigh.....No good deed goes unpunished, Doug.

Blitz Fox[url=tel:415-307-2405]415-307-2405[/url]
On Mar 3, 2015, at 10:54 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes.  Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO.  Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims.  Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?
Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel:  I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.
Not DOT approved:  That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???
Which tanks will be made first:  CJ6 main tanks will be the first to be available.
Will we do Yak 52 and 50 tanks also:  Yes but first we have to obtain a sample of both.  Any one out there who might have a non airworthy Yak 50 or 52 main air tank which we could use??  I would be happy to pay what ever is fair.  The sooner we can obtain the samples the sooner we can make this happen.
Again, thank you all for your opinions, good bad or indifferent, they are all important to me.  
Best from Omak,
Doug 
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 4:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen

Quote:


et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



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ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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rocketerf1(at)yahoo.ca
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:22 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Doug,

I'm interested.

Jeff Deuchar

Sent from my iPad

[quote] On Mar 3, 2015, at 11:54 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes. Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO. Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims. Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?

Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel: I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.

Not DOT approved: That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???

Which tanks will be made first: CJ6 main tanks will be the first to be available.

Will we do Yak 52 and 50 tanks also: Yes but first we have to obtain a sample of both. Any one out there who might have a non airworthy Yak 50 or 52 main air tank which we could use?? I would be happy to pay what ever is fair. The sooner we can obtain the samples the sooner we can make this happen


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:27 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Doug,

Put my name on the list.
---- doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
All,
Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am
considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to
replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.
The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and
be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while
fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you
should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock
standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about
$450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about
$700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order
them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather
large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be
interested if I did stocked them.

Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency
tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.

Looking forward to your comments.

Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen


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hess737(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:46 am    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Me too Smile

Richard HessC 404-964-4885
On Mar 3, 2015, at 2:22 PM, Jeff <rocketerf1(at)yahoo.ca (rocketerf1(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
[quote]Doug,
I'm interested.
Jeff Deuchar

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 3, 2015, at 11:54 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes.  Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO. Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims. Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?
Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel: I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.
Not DOT approved: That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???
Which tanks will be made first: CJ6 main tanks will be the first to be available.
Will we do Yak 52 and 50 tanks also: Yes but first we have to obtain a sample of both. Any one out there who might have a non airworthy Yak 50 or 52 main air tank which we could use?? I would be happy to pay what ever is fair. The sooner we can obtain the samples the sooner we can make this happen.
Again, thank you all for your opinions, good bad or indifferent, they are all important to me.
Best from Omak,
Doug
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 4:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen

Quote:


et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



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ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Thunderbird Cylinder in Phoenix. $25 per tank.
http://www.thunderbirdcylinder.com/

Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Mar 3, 2015, at 12:02 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Doug,

I have wanted to hydro check my tanks using local sources, and gave up after calling around 20 places across Fl. No one wanted to touch a non DOT bottle, not to mention the fact that they didn't have any way to attach their fittings to the bottle.
Ernie

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:54 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes. Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO. Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims. Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?
Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel: I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.
Not DOT approved: That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???



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_________________
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A - N134FA
KDVT Hangar 33-13

Cell - 260.402.1740

Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Doug,
I'm in!
Why risk a large investment to save a few dollars.
Regards,
John Nolan

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2015, at 6:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen

Quote:


D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]


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Viperdoc



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:09 pm    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Plan C? Hydraulic conversion and electric starter....
Doc

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 3, 2015, at 11:41 AM, "\"" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote]I love this list! At seeing Doug's proposal, I thought - -"There goes good old Doug, looking after us guys - AGAIN". Than I see Dead Bear's & The Geek's scuba idea, ( modernist both ) and read Dennis concerns. Now at least I have something to think about when it comes time to make that decision ( sooner most likely than later ).  It nice to have a "plan B". C Plan anyone? Wink

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby


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Viperdoc



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:16 pm    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Doug,
I have a 50 main tank. Will call you tomorrow if I get a chance. Need to talk to you about some other parts anyway.

Doc

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[quote] On Mar 3, 2015, at 12:54 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Many thanks to all of you who were kind enough to give thier opinions and comments about the SS tanks:

Questions:
Would they be direct replacement: Yes. Building new racks and restraining clamps just is not worth the time or effort IMHO. Also, I fear that it won't be long before the insurance companies tumble to the fact that many of our aircraft are modified without following the current FAA guidelines and use that fact to keep from paying claims. Also and most important is the fact the the current rackage is tested and works, why would I want to re engineer it and take on that responsibility myself?

Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Stainless Steel: I have requested bids from several mfg's in several different materials, but to date SS seems to be the best way to go.

Not DOT approved: That is not an issue now, why would it be an issue with the SS tanks???

Which tanks will be made first: CJ6 main tanks will be the first to be available.

Will we do Yak 52 and 50 tanks also: Yes but first we have to obtain a sample of both. Any one out there who might have a non airworthy Yak 50 or 52 main air tank which we could use?? I would be happy to pay what ever is fair. The sooner we can obtain the samples the sooner we can make this happen


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GeorgeCoy



Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Main Air Tanks Reply with quote

Actually guys we did make a hydraulic conversion for the gear and electric conversion for the flaps to eliminate the air system in the yard 52. Airplane headed V-8 diesel engine and no chance for a pneumatic system.
George

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On Mar 3, 2015, at 9:08 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com (f16viperdoc(at)me.com)> wrote:
[quote]Plan C? Hydraulic conversion and electric starter....
Doc

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 3, 2015, at 11:41 AM, "\"" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote]I love this list! At seeing Doug's proposal, I thought - -"There goes good old Doug, looking after us guys - AGAIN". Than I see Dead Bear's & The Geek's scuba idea, ( modernist both ) and read Dennis concerns. Now at least I have something to think about when it comes time to make that decision ( sooner most likely than later ). It nice to have a "plan B". C Plan anyone? Wink

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby


--


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