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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:44 pm Post subject: Magnetos |
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Hi All;
I have a question basically for Richard Goode and George Coy but also for anyone else interested. It is a result of the following question to me : ------ “Can I replace my M9F magneto on the M14P with a DZ5 (Chinese) magneto?”.
My answer has been a qualified “No, I don’t think it’s a good idea” even though I know it has been done and the reported results are good. This response has nothing to do with the different timing requirements of a fixed spark mag. VS an auto advance mag. which I try to explain to the questioner.
To the best of my knowledge there are only four versions of this magneto: 1. The basic M9 of which the DZ5 is a license built copy (though, I guess we could call that 2 versions), 2. The M9-25M, 3. The M9-35M and 4. The M9F. Versions 1 & 2 are auto advance type with a range of 23 to 27 degs. Version 3 is also auto advance but with an extended range of 23 to 37 degs. and version 4 which is a fixed spark magneto with no auto advance mechanism.
The basic M9 (DZ5) to the best of my knowledge is the standard magneto on various engines with a maximum RPM of less than 2400. The M9-25M and the M9-35M are approved alternates for the M14P and the M9-35M is the standard magneto for the M14PF. Much of this is my observation and not necessarily fully accurate.
Since the M14P and, presumably, the M14PF engines have a much higher maximum RPM than the earlier versions I suspect that the M25M and the M35M (in addition to the extended range of the latter) have a different advance mechanism than the basic M9 (DZ5).
I expect there are different counter weights and/or return spring tensions involved. Am I right or wrong? If wrong what is the actual difference between the M9 and the M9-25M?
Have at it guys!!
Cheers;
Walt
[quote][b]
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:02 am Post subject: Magnetos |
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I am flattered that I should be thought an authority on magnetos – but firstly I am not, but more importantly, we have virtually no experience of the Chinese magnetos, simply because there are only, I think, three CJ6 aircraft in all Europe, and to the best of my knowledge no one has ever needed to change or examine the magnetos!
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: 29 June 2013 05:40
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Magnetos
Hi All;
I have a question basically for Richard Goode and George Coy but also for anyone else interested. It is a result of the following question to me : ------ “Can I replace my M9F magneto on the M14P with a DZ5 (Chinese) magneto?”.
My answer has been a qualified “No, I don’t think it’s a good idea” even though I know it has been done and the reported results are good. This response has nothing to do with the different timing requirements of a fixed spark mag. VS an auto advance mag. which I try to explain to the questioner.
To the best of my knowledge there are only four versions of this magneto: 1. The basic M9 of which the DZ5 is a license built copy (though, I guess we could call that 2 versions), 2. The M9-25M, 3. The M9-35M and 4. The M9F. Versions 1 & 2 are auto advance type with a range of 23 to 27 degs. Version 3 is also auto advance but with an extended range of 23 to 37 degs. and version 4 which is a fixed spark magneto with no auto advance mechanism.
The basic M9 (DZ5) to the best of my knowledge is the standard magneto on various engines with a maximum RPM of less than 2400. The M9-25M and the M9-35M are approved alternates for the M14P and the M9-35M is the standard magneto for the M14PF. Much of this is my observation and not necessarily fully accurate.
Since the M14P and, presumably, the M14PF engines have a much higher maximum RPM than the earlier versions I suspect that the M25M and the M35M (in addition to the extended range of the latter) have a different advance mechanism than the basic M9 (DZ5).
I expect there are different counter weights and/or return spring tensions involved. Am I right or wrong? If wrong what is the actual difference between the M9 and the M9-25M?
Have at it guys!!
Cheers;
Walt
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cpayne(at)joimail.com
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:18 am Post subject: Magnetos |
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Walt,
I have been running CD-5's in M-14P's for about 13 years now and have recommended them to anyone who will listen. More than once I rigged an M-14P with an M9F on one side and a CD-5 on the other. Necessity the first time and to make a point the 2nd time.
Of course the timing needs to be different. This I have documented in my "How to" article you can find on the RPA/store/manuals page. The biggest advantage of the CD-5 is the 'advance' which is really an auto retard that allows easy starts and running at the optimal value of 28 degrees BTDC for full takeoff power.
CD-5's used to be a real bargain, but as the M9F prices have been rising to $1800 each, the Chinese must have noticed and raised prices too. Check with Doug for latest prices.
I use the CD-5 as a basis for my Electronic Ignition conversion since it has the "auto advance" feature.
Craig Payne
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:26 am Post subject: Magnetos |
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Craig,
Send me your contact # off list to my email. Want to talk to you about your oil filter/manifold. I am getting ready to put my oil cooler in the wing root on my 50. Tom Johnson has one that he used but it does not appear to be available on Ebay any longer. The other 50 + listed do not appear to be reasonable alternatives.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 29, 2013, at 5:14 AM, Cpayne <cpayne(at)joimail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Walt,
I have been running CD-5's in M-14P's for about 13 years now and have recommended them to anyone who will listen. More than once I rigged an M-14P with an M9F on one side and a CD-5 on the other. Necessity the first time and to make a point the 2nd time.
Of course the timing needs to be different. This I have documented in my "How to" article you can find on the RPA/store/manuals page. The biggest advantage of the CD-5 is the 'advance' which is really an auto retard that allows easy starts and running at the optimal value of 28 degrees BTDC for full takeoff power.
CD-5's used to be a real bargain, but as the M9F prices have been rising to $1800 each, the Chinese must have noticed and raised prices too. Check with Doug for latest prices.
I use the CD-5 as a basis for my Electronic Ignition conversion since it has the "auto advance" feature.
Craig Payne
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:39 am Post subject: Magnetos |
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Thanks Craig;
For picking up my brain fart. Should have typed CD-5 rather than DZ5.
Walt
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:49 am Post subject: Magnetos |
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I too have use CD-5 on my M-14p both as mixed (one of each) and dual. I even ran a "generator" mag off the 3 cylinder M-14 where I changed out the cam from a Chinese mag into the mag to replace 3 lobed cam. It fit and worked perfectly well. I did this while waiting for the Russian mags coils to be redone.
Now I don't pretend this was perfectly engineered as to the theoretical science of ignition systems, but I could not tell any difference in performance (I sure there was) the gages were normal, sounds, feel, fuel and oil burns were not any different. I operated in various combination for about 100 hours. Crazy? I guess but these engine are very basic (I'm a basic guy too i.e. simple minded more correctly) while I can understand that in pursuit of perfection a lot can be done to these engines to make them "perfect" they were not designed that way. That was why my M-14 came from the factory with no oil ring but a scraper ring in the oil land of #3 cylinder, and ran fine for 438 hours. Or why a Chinese mag ran just fine without a woodruff key in the rotor shaft for 250 hours before the torque on the lock washer cause it to shift and slip on the timing.
Right now I'm Payne's "second test pilot" (no nothing happened to the first as it was Payne himself), testing his prototype electronic ignition and special designed distributor cap. SFSG but he' in charge of that part.
Over the years we've watch this list cover the consternation's of members as they over came various problems. Some of us doing some plain shade tree engineering if you will. A number of times a number have gone out a financial limb to provide the rest of us with parts and services. GOD BLESS THEM!!!
Man I love this list!!
BTW I'm in Cody, Wy flying the B-24. Spectacular views, BUT its "high, hot, and heavy" and the turbo's are near flat out. :-]
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
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JOE HOWSE
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 140
Location: DUNCAN BC CANADA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:18 am Post subject: Magnetos |
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I also operated an M14P with CD-5 MAGS in my CJ6 for several years with good
results, no problems timing using the CD-5
advance timing chart.
Joe
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:25 am Post subject: Magnetos |
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I do not know the DZ5 magnetos. I suspect they are same as the M9-35 mags that are used on the AI14 Engine. The Housai engine is identical to the AI14 engine. Probably originally license built. The Kamov helicopter engines all had the M9-35 and many of the M14P engines we supplied had the M9-35 magneto. The basic difference to the airplane is the starting system is different as it uses a “vibrator” style of start instead of the high voltage “shower of Sparks”. We often use the “Slick Start” for these mags. The other difference as [pointed out is the initial timing is different to accommodate the centrifugal advance system.
George Coy
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 12:40 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Magnetos
Hi All;
I have a question basically for Richard Goode and George Coy but also for anyone else interested. It is a result of the following question to me : ------ “Can I replace my M9F magneto on the M14P with a DZ5 (Chinese) magneto?”.
My answer has been a qualified “No, I don’t think it’s a good idea” even though I know it has been done and the reported results are good. This response has nothing to do with the different timing requirements of a fixed spark mag. VS an auto advance mag. which I try to explain to the questioner.
To the best of my knowledge there are only four versions of this magneto: 1. The basic M9 of which the DZ5 is a license built copy (though, I guess we could call that 2 versions), 2. The M9-25M, 3. The M9-35M and 4. The M9F. Versions 1 & 2 are auto advance type with a range of 23 to 27 degs. Version 3 is also auto advance but with an extended range of 23 to 37 degs. and version 4 which is a fixed spark magneto with no auto advance mechanism.
The basic M9 (DZ5) to the best of my knowledge is the standard magneto on various engines with a maximum RPM of less than 2400. The M9-25M and the M9-35M are approved alternates for the M14P and the M9-35M is the standard magneto for the M14PF. Much of this is my observation and not necessarily fully accurate.
Since the M14P and, presumably, the M14PF engines have a much higher maximum RPM than the earlier versions I suspect that the M25M and the M35M (in addition to the extended range of the latter) have a different advance mechanism than the basic M9 (DZ5).
I expect there are different counter weights and/or return spring tensions involved. Am I right or wrong? If wrong what is the actual difference between the M9 and the M9-25M?
Have at it guys!!
Cheers;
Walt
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
01234567
[quote][b]
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