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aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
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 Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:37 am Post subject: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
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HI Guys-
This is a subject area that triggers heated debates all the way up to heavy cockpits. The source guidance for this particular issue can be found in FAR 61.51(e)(1)(iii) which states, paraphrased, that when ACTING as PIC you can log PIC. While the statemant that there is only one PIC aboard is correct, it is also correct that when one pilot (the real PIC) is under the hood in VMC, he can not fully discharge his duties. The safety pilot is an FAR required position and can only be filled by someone with the appropriate category and class ratings. Per the reg cited above, the safety pilot gets to log PIC and it does indeed count towards his next certificate or rating. Tailwheel and complex / high perf endorsements are not an issue.
If you guys think this stuff is sticky, get a couple heavy pilots to discuss logging bunk time on multi-crew long haul flights... however, not only is the black ink on the white page, but the FAA website has a section for legal interpretations that spells out how DC views these issues.
Subject: Almost an RV question.....
| Quote: | From: mr.gsun(at)gmail.com
Hi folks, here is the scenario
I'm a low time RV7 pilot wanting to stay IFR current in my IFR legal RV7
(tailwheel) with the Dynon Skyview installed
My hangar neighbor is a newly minted IFR pilot wanting to build time
towards his commercial rating. He flies a complex, High performance Sokata
Trinidad. He does not have a tailwheel endorsment and I do not have either
a complex or high performance endorsement.
Can either of us log time as safety pilot for the other while the other is
under the hood? Can either of us legally be safety pilots for each other?
(Maybe that is the same question)
If I went and got an endorsement in a complex airplane (the local flight
school does not have a complex, High Performance anymore) and flew with him
as safety pilot could any of that time be logged towards the requirement
for complex time for my commercial rating?
Thanks in advance for the answers.....
|
Glen Matejcek
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mr.sun
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:20 pm Post subject: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
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So, if I am in a complex aircraft acting as PIC because I am the safety pilot, can I count that as some of the complex time needed for my commercial? Even though I am not checked out, nor insured to fly that aircraft? I am, however, current in my RV7 with a current class II medical.
Greg On Oct 5, 2012 1:41 AM, "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net (aerobubba(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: Glen Matejcek <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net (aerobubba(at)earthlink.net)>
HI Guys-
This is a subject area that triggers heated debates all the way up to heavy cockpits. The source guidance for this particular issue can be found in FAR 61.51(e)(1)(iii) which states, paraphrased, that when ACTING as PIC you can log PIC. While the statemant that there is only one PIC aboard is correct, it is also correct that when one pilot (the real PIC) is under the hood in VMC, he can not fully discharge his duties. The safety pilot is an FAR required position and can only be filled by someone with the appropriate category and class ratings. Per the reg cited above, the safety pilot gets to log PIC and it does indeed count towards his next certificate or rating. Tailwheel and complex / high perf endorsements are not an issue.
If you guys think this stuff is sticky, get a couple heavy pilots to discuss logging bunk time on multi-crew long haul flights... however, not only is the black ink on the white page, but the FAA website has a section for legal interpretations that spells out how DC views these issues.
Subject: Almost an RV question.....
>From: mr.gsun(at)gmail.com (mr.gsun(at)gmail.com)
>
>Hi folks, here is the scenario
>
>I'm a low time RV7 pilot wanting to stay IFR current in my IFR legal RV7
>(tailwheel) with the Dynon Skyview installed
>
>My hangar neighbor is a newly minted IFR pilot wanting to build time
>towards his commercial rating. He flies a complex, High performance Sokata
>Trinidad. He does not have a tailwheel endorsment and I do not have either
>a complex or high performance endorsement.
>
>Can either of us log time as safety pilot for the other while the other is
>under the hood? Can either of us legally be safety pilots for each other?
>(Maybe that is the same question)
>
>If I went and got an endorsement in a complex airplane (the local flight
>school does not have a complex, High Performance anymore) and flew with him
>as safety pilot could any of that time be logged towards the requirement
>for complex time for my commercial rating?
>
>Thanks in advance for the answers.....
>
Glen Matejcek
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Gary.A.Sobek
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Location: SoCAL USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:47 am Post subject: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
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NO you cannot use the complex time toward your Commercial rating. The Commercial rating requires that you have 10-hours of instruction in complex airplanes.
Ref 61.129http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/6B2FADCE6B2C97E88625768D0073A7A1?OpenDocument
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing
gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered,
or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of
training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch
propeller;
Now if you can get the other person to sign you off as having instruction, then you would be able to use it.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
2,640+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 22:18:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question....
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mr.sun
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:08 am Post subject: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
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So lets see, do I have to get this ten hours of training from a CFI or from my experienced neighbor with the complex airplane?
Greg On Oct 7, 2012 7:51 AM, "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com (rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote] NO you cannot use the complex time toward your Commercial rating. The Commercial rating requires that you have 10-hours of instruction in complex airplanes.
Ref 61.129
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/6B2FADCE6B2C97E88625768D0073A7A1?OpenDocument
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
Now if you can get the other person to sign you off as having instruction, then you would be able to use it.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
2,640+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 22:18:59 -0700
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question.....
From: mr.gsun(at)gmail.com (mr.gsun(at)gmail.com)
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
So, if I am in a complex aircraft acting as PIC because I am the safety pilot, can I count that as some of the complex time needed for my commercial? Even though I am not checked out, nor insured to fly that aircraft? I am, however, current in my RV7 with a current class II medical.
Greg
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t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1704
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:17 am Post subject: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
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Only a CFI can give *required* instruction time. Ratings have experience
requirements and instruction requirements. This is an instruction
requirement.
On 10/7/2012 8:07 AM, mr.gsun(at)gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
So lets see, do I have to get this ten hours of training from a CFI
or from my experienced neighbor with the complex airplane?
Greg
On Oct 7, 2012 7:51 AM, "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com
<mailto:rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com>> wrote:
NO you cannot use the complex time toward your Commercial rating.
The Commercial rating requires that you have 10-hours of
instruction in complex airplanes.
Ref 61.129
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/6B2FADCE6B2C97E88625768D0073A7A1?OpenDocument
/(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable
landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is
turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine
seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps
and a controllable pitch propeller; /
Now if you can get the other person to sign you off as having
instruction, then you would be able to use it.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
2,640+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 22:18:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV
question.....
From: mr.gsun(at)gmail.com <mailto:mr.gsun(at)gmail.com>
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv-list(at)matronics.com>
So, if I am in a complex aircraft acting as PIC because I am the
safety pilot, can I count that as some of the complex time needed
for my commercial? Even though I am not checked out, nor
insured to fly that aircraft? I am, however, current in my RV7
with a current class II medical.
Greg
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tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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Shannon Miller
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:32 am Post subject: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
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However, time logged as SIC (safety pilot) DOES count toward the 250 hours total flight time requirement of the commercial certificate. 14 CFR 61.129(a).
As for logging PIC when you are safety pilot, yes, that's possible as well (for the time the PF is under the hood), when certain conditions are met and prior agreement is made. It's not something to take lightly, however. Google around and you'll find some really good AOPA/etc. guidance on this, complete with LOIs from the FAA.
Oddly, there are also situations when you are ACTING PIC (14 CFR 1.1, under "Pilot in command"), fully responsible for the safety of the flight, but can NOT log it. For example, say you're checked out in your complex ASEL aircraft and you and your friend go on a one-hour flight together. Your friend is a private pilot ASEL with no complex endorsement, but you let him do all the flying except for takeoff and landing. You watch him like a hawk because you're acting PIC -- your butt is on the line if anything happens. Since your friend is a private pilot with an ASEL rating (an endorsement is not a rating), and was sole manipulator of the controls, he gets to log that one hour of flight time as PIC (14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i). But since neither of you were under the hood and only one pilot was required at a time, you may NOT log that flight time (except for the time you were actually manipulating the controls yourself, for taxi, takeoff, and landing)! Seems unfair, I know. There are other situations like this as well.
So, ACTING PIC and LOGGING PIC are two totally different things. You can log PIC during times you are not actually acting PIC, and vice versa. So there is a whole lot of confusion on it all. Gotta love the FAA.
--Shannon Miller, CFI
RV-7A, Wings
On Oct 7, 2012, at 7:51, RV6 Flyer <rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com (rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] NO you cannot use the complex time toward your Commercial rating. The Commercial rating requires that you have 10-hours of instruction in complex airplanes.
Ref 61.129 http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/6B2FADCE6B2C97E88625768D0073A7A1?OpenDocument
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
Now if you can get the other person to sign you off as having instruction, then you would be able to use it.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
2,640+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 22:18:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question.....
From: mr.gsun(at)gmail.com (mr.gsun(at)gmail.com)
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
So, if I am in a complex aircraft acting as PIC because I am the safety pilot, can I count that as some of the complex time needed for my commercial? Even though I am not checked out, nor insured to fly that aircraft? I am, however, current in my RV7 with a current class II medical.
Greg
| Quote: |
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aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:26 am Post subject: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
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This is a perfect example of how things can get twisted and even heated in the pilot lounge.
| Quote: |
NO you cannot use the complex time toward your Commercial rating. The Comm
ercial rating requires that you have 10-hours of instruction in complex air
planes.
|
The question asked referred to using safety pilot time towards a commercial certificate. Nowhere was it suggested that time be used to meet the instruction rec'd requirements. FAR 61.129 specifies, among many other things, that the applicant have 250 hrs as pilot. Safety pilot is pilot time. Of those 250 hrs, 50 need to be in airplanes, and the aircraft in question is indeed an airplane. Further, of those 250 hrs of pilot time, only 100 needs to be PIC. Chew on that one for a minute! Also, 50 hrs of cross country are required with various sub-requirements, as well as night flight requirements.
So, we can see there are many subcategories of the flight time requirement for a commercial ticket, and time spent as safety pilot can be used to fulfill multiple of them. Have you got glider time? Balloon? Rotorcraft? Those all count, too. If you read the reg, you might notice that 'single engine' is rarely mentioned. Been sitting right seat in an old warbird, logging SIC under part 91? That counts, as well.
Glen Matejcek
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