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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:27 am Post subject: Nanchang accident.

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Lift reserve was my patent. It is now the Alpha Systems AOA. Has the two holes in the probe. As does Dynons pitot tube. Both holes are getting ram air. The gauge or processor are just comparing differential pressure. Same as Advanced Pro. Very simple systems. 

 



	




Well, not exactly the same. The Advanced Systems Pro uses the wing as the probe but also uses dynamic pressure (pitot/static) to correct out the CAS leaving only AoA. That is why it has four pneumatic inputs, i.e. upper wing port, lower wing port, pitot, and static. The LRI leaves the CAS bias in which is why I said it is not a true AoA indicator. It is a lift available indicator, at least as near as I can tell. For those of us who prefer to fly "pure" AoA, it does not provide the information we expect.

 

Now that doesn't make it a bad or un-useful instrument, it just means that it does not provide straight, unadulterated AoA. If you want a pure AoA indication, you need something different than the LRI.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  Lift reserve analog gauge is the most reliable just because no moving parts or processors.

 

	




Well, the Advanced Systems Pro has no moving parts at all. It is using solid-state monolithic pressure transducers, a microcontroller, and a liquide crystal or LED display. The LRI has an analog pressure gauge which is full of moving parts. Needle, bearings, gears, linkages, aneroid, etc., are all moving parts like an ASI. MTBF on microcontrollers is longer than on analog gauges. But that doesn't mean that the LRI isn't a perfectly good gauge and won't provide very reasonable life. Just don't say that it has no moving parts and is more reliable. 

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  As far as inverted indications or negative maneuvers, we actually had a customer place a mark on the glass as to where it stalled when upside down. Cool idea.

 



The entire mission of an AOA gauge is to get you on the ground safely, slowly and shortest distance.



	




I find AoA quite useful during maneuvering as well as during landing. It lets me know how near I am to stall and it lets me set up for lowest energy bleed during maneuvering if I have the maneuvering margin (best L/D).

 



I think you and I had quite a discussion about LRI back on the RV-list about 15 years ago. 



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

 brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:54 am Post subject: Nanchang accident.

For standard Navy configuration, the three light indexers on the glare

shield only work with the gear extended and are set up for optimum angle of

attack for carrier approach speeds in the landing configuration for flaps,

slats, (wing on a Crusader).  The steam gauges on all of the aircraft I few

are marked for optimum AOA in the landing  configuration, but were also tick

marked for optimum AOA for best turn AOA (L/D max).  The steam gauge was

only used in landing if the indexers failed or in the event of a landing

when the standard flap/slat configuration wasn't being used.  (Those were

scary thoughts at the ship.   If my memory serves me for a Prowler, it was

157 kts no flap/no slat or 172 kts no flap/slats out and max engaging speed

at the ship was 130 knots.)



Mark Davis

N44YK

Former Garuda and Guntrain Paddles

--

rmhou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: Nanchang accident.

To add to Bill's list, there is also InAir Instruments, LLC's unit:

http://www.liftreserve.com/



For DIYers, there is a homebuilt version designed by Jim Mantyla. Instruction and plan are available for download here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331233&sid=38853d4c578ba5cb2ce794db84af0d9d

http://www.ronleclerc.net/photos/lift-reserve/lri-probe.pdf



--- On Fri, 7/27/12, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



[quote] From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 Subject: RE: Re: Nanchang accident.

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, July 27, 2012, 9:24 AM

 

 "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"

 <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 

 Bill ..... 

 

 What a wonderfully written posting.  

 

 I am also massively impressed that you actually invented and

 patented a

 differential pressure Angle of Attack system.  

 

 Brilliant.  

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 

 --

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

In air is a guy that sued somebody with a frivolous law suit and one, then copied my lift reserve.



Bill



On Jul 27, 2012, at 12:02 PM, Robin Hou <rmhou(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 To add to Bill's list, there is also InAir Instruments, LLC's unit:

 http://www.liftreserve.com/

 

 For DIYers, there is a homebuilt version designed by Jim Mantyla. Instruction and plan are available for download here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331233&sid=38853d4c578ba5cb2ce794db84af0d9d

 http://www.ronleclerc.net/photos/lift-reserve/lri-probe.pdf

 

 

 

 --- On Fri, 7/27/12, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:

 

> From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

> Subject: RE: Re: Nanchang accident.

> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

> Date: Friday, July 27, 2012, 9:24 AM

> 

> "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"

> <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

> 

> Bill ..... 

> 

> What a wonderfully written posting.  

> 

> I am also massively impressed that you actually invented and

> patented a

> differential pressure Angle of Attack system.  

> 

> Brilliant.  

> 

> Mark Bitterlich

> 

> 

> 

> --

k7wx

Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:12 am Post subject: Nanchang accident.

Brian,



What the Lift Reserve Indicator is telling you is the lift status of the wing. Certainly one of the most critical items on takeoff and approach. It's indication is independent of density altitude, airspeed, loading, etc. Sounds a lot like AOA to me. Pure AOA, combined information, whatever... this is all just chat room semantics. It is an AOA indication direct or indirect and if it adds additional information, all the better. On takeoff and landing, I'll have my eyes in this more than the airspeed indicator. It is a lovely instrument, certainly worthy or consideration by anyone who is looking to move safety up to the next level. All of these indicators (Advanced AOA, Right Angle, Alpha Systems, InAir Instruments) add the same kind of extra, very valuable information which I have come to believe is the right information for these two important aspects of flight. However, to dismiss the LRI variation on this theme is disingenuous. 

Warren



 

On Jul 26, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

[quote]Many people like the the LRI. Unfortunately, the LRI does NOT display AoA, at least not directly. AoA is a factor but I was never able to discern what that instrument was telling me. From what I can tell, it displays AoA times airspeed which probably is just total lift. Regardless, it is DEFINITELY NOT pure AoA and cannot be treated as such. If you want AoA you need to get a different instrument.[b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:47 am Post subject: Nanchang accident.

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net (k7wx(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian,



What the Lift Reserve Indicator is telling you is the lift status of the wing. Certainly one of the most critical items on takeoff and approach. It's indication is independent of density altitude, airspeed, loading, etc. Sounds a lot like AOA to me. Pure AOA, combined information, whatever... this is all just chat room semantics. It is an AOA indication direct or indirect and if it adds additional information, all the better. On takeoff and landing, I'll have my eyes in this more than the airspeed indicator. It is a lovely instrument, certainly worthy or consideration by anyone who is looking to move safety up to the next level. All of these indicators (Advanced AOA, Right Angle, Alpha Systems, InAir Instruments) add the same kind of extra, very valuable information which I have come to believe is the right information for these two important aspects of flight. However, to dismiss the LRI variation on this theme is disingenuous. 

 

	




Many of the people on this list have flown aircraft that have an instrument that displays alpha, the actual angle-of-attack of the wing. If you are used to flying with such an instrument then an instrument that purports to deliver that information but doesn't can lead to erroneous decisions. So, to me, the key is to know *exactly* what the instrument is telling you. 

 



When I first encountered the LRI I considered buying one because I really like knowing just where the airfoil is operating. I studied the instrument and became confused because I couldn't see that it could work as a true AoA instrument. Then then went and read the patent. Again I couldn't see how it would function as a true AoA instrument. I then borrowed an aircraft with an LRI installed an did my own flight testing. I confirmed for myself that it does not behave as a true AoA indicator.

 



Now that is not to say that it is not useful, far from it. A properly installed LRI will always properly indicate critical AoA, i.e. stall. From that point of view it is quite useful. Also, in unaccelerated flight, e.g. on a stabilized approach, it does a very good job of telling you just how far you are from stall so that is also very useful. But as you load up the airframe in maneuvering flight, the indications become less useful. A needle indication that indicates substantial margin from stall in unaccelerated flight may actually be quite close to critical AoA in accelerated flight. So, while I am not denigrating the LRI, I am trying to make sure that others here understand that it is NOT displaying alpha. That's all. 

 



At the same time I looked at the Advanced Flight Systems AoA, and the RiteAngle AoA. I opted to purchase the AFS AoA Pro (I liked its installation simplicity relative to the RiteAngle) and installed it in my CJ6A. I tested it over flight loads from 0.5G to 5G and verified that it properly displays alpha under all accelerations. Over the entire flight regime it shows zero lift/zero alpha regardless of airspeed (really useful when you know you have blown a maneuver and want to exit gracefully without having the airframe depart) and it shows me exactly how much more I can pull before I will reach critical AoA. For these reasons I feel that the AFS AoA met my needs far better than the LRI. 

 



So, I know that many of you think I am an asshole and that I am unfairly denigrating Bill Geipel's invention just because I AM an asshole. But I would like you to reconsider and do your own analysis of the various instruments knowing what they tell you. If after doing that you decide you like the LRI better then I encourage you to install one. I found that it did not tell me what I wanted to know and instead opted for a different instrument. And I wanted the pilots here who have flown using an AoA indicator to be aware that the LRI might not be telling them what they think it is telling them. 

 



But the LRI is indeed a useful instrument.



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

 +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

When you think about it, who cares what the angle of attack is or if it is real AOA or what the critical AOA is i.e. 15 units. Cessna never told me at what angle the wing will stall so I don't really care. What I do know from all these units is where the wing will stall. Not much more needed. I know for a fact when the LRI is loaded up in an accelerated maneuver it is still accurate. As soon as the needle hits the critical AOA, you stall. Whether its 60 or 160 kts. The only unit that displays true AOA is Rite Angle. It actually has a little wing flying in undisturbed air staying parallel to the relative wind. The rest use pressure differential. They all have 2 ports, they measure the difference. 

They all tell how much lift is still available in the wing. They tell you not when the wing will buffet, but when it actually departs. Pick your price, your display choice, many lites, few lites, chevrons, or analog gauge, and have fun.



When I'm out mixing it up with the boys, I can pull until I feel the rumble, the needle or lights are approaching L/D max, that all means I'm getting max performance from my wing. Pull anymore, I lose,(stall),  pull any less I lose. ( The fight).



Bill



On Jul 28, 2012, at 12:45 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:



[quote]On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net (k7wx(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian,



What the Lift Reserve Indicator is telling you is the lift status of the wing. Certainly one of the most critical items on takeoff and approach. It's indication is independent of density altitude, airspeed, loading, etc. Sounds a lot like AOA to me. Pure AOA, combined information, whatever... this is all just chat room semantics. It is an AOA indication direct or indirect and if it adds additional information, all the better. On takeoff and landing, I'll have my eyes in this more than the airspeed indicator. It is a lovely instrument, certainly worthy or consideration by anyone who is looking to move safety up to the next level. All of these indicators (Advanced AOA, Right Angle, Alpha Systems, InAir Instruments) add the same kind of extra, very valuable information which I have come to believe is the right information for these two important aspects of flight. However, to dismiss the LRI variation on this theme is disingenuous. 

 

	




Many of the people on this list have flown aircraft that have an instrument that displays alpha, the actual angle-of-attack of the wing. If you are used to flying with such an instrument then an instrument that purports to deliver that information but doesn't can lead to erroneous decisions. So, to me, the key is to know *exactly* what the instrument is telling you. 

 



When I first encountered the LRI I considered buying one because I really like knowing just where the airfoil is operating. I studied the instrument and became confused because I couldn't see that it could work as a true AoA instrument. Then then went and read the patent. Again I couldn't see how it would function as a true AoA instrument. I then borrowed an aircraft with an LRI installed an did my own flight testing. I confirmed for myself that it does not behave as a true AoA indicator.

 



Now that is not to say that it is not useful, far from it. A properly installed LRI will always properly indicate critical AoA, i.e. stall. From that point of view it is quite useful. Also, in unaccelerated flight, e.g. on a stabilized approach, it does a very good job of telling you just how far you are from stall so that is also very useful. But as you load up the airframe in maneuvering flight, the indications become less useful. A needle indication that indicates substantial margin from stall in unaccelerated flight may actually be quite close to critical AoA in accelerated flight. So, while I am not denigrating the LRI, I am trying to make sure that others here understand that it is NOT displaying alpha. That's all. 

 



At the same time I looked at the Advanced Flight Systems AoA, and the RiteAngle AoA. I opted to purchase the AFS AoA Pro (I liked its installation simplicity relative to the RiteAngle) and installed it in my CJ6A. I tested it over flight loads from 0.5G to 5G and verified that it properly displays alpha under all accelerations. Over the entire flight regime it shows zero lift/zero alpha regardless of airspeed (really useful when you know you have blown a maneuver and want to exit gracefully without having the airframe depart) and it shows me exactly how much more I can pull before I will reach critical AoA. For these reasons I feel that the AFS AoA met my needs far better than the LRI. 

 



So, I know that many of you think I am an asshole and that I am unfairly denigrating Bill Geipel's invention just because I AM an asshole. But I would like you to reconsider and do your own analysis of the various instruments knowing what they tell you. If after doing that you decide you like the LRI better then I encourage you to install one. I found that it did not tell me what I wanted to know and instead opted for a different instrument. And I wanted the pilots here who have flown using an AoA indicator to be aware that the LRI might not be telling them what they think it is telling them. 

 



But the LRI is indeed a useful instrument.



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

 +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



   	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:37 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   When you think about it, who cares what the angle of attack is or if it is real AOA or what the critical AOA is i.e. 15 units. 



	




Well, actually, I do. And I understand that you do not and that is just fine.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  Cessna never told me at what angle the wing will stall so I don't really care. 

 

	




Well, I don't care about the actual angle either, just where I am between an alpha of zero and critical AoA.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   What I do know from all these units is where the wing will stall. Not much more needed. I know for a fact when the LRI is loaded up in an accelerated maneuver it is still accurate. 



 	




But only WRT critical AoA. The LRI specifically is not helpful to find an alpha of zero or the alpha that produces best L/D, other points I really like to know, especially if I am vertical. 

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  As soon as the needle hits the critical AOA, you stall. Whether its 60 or 160 kts. The only unit that displays true AOA is Rite Angle. It actually has a little wing flying in undisturbed air staying parallel to the relative wind. The rest use pressure differential. They all have 2 ports, they measure the difference. 

 

	




Well, the Advanced Flight Systems AoA is a four-port device. It actually samples pitot and static pressures as well. That way it can correct for IAS leaving just AoA on the display.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  



They all tell how much lift is still available in the wing. 

 

	




I guess that is where you and I differ. I am not really interested in the lift available in the wing but what AoA the wing is operating at and the percentage of increase in AoA remains to me. It tells me how much harder I *can* pull, where best L/D is, and it tells me where to put the stick to achieve an alpha of zero if I want the aircraft ballistic or if I've botched a maneuver and want to fall through without stalling and/or spinning. Doing loops and blow your entry speed or initial pull? You can see at a glance you aren't going to make so so you just pop the stick to zero alpha and let the nose fall through. No "falling out the top" of a loop ever again. That is where you want to know alpha at something other than critical AoA (stall).

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  They tell you not when the wing will buffet, but when it actually departs. Pick your price, your display choice, many lites, few lites, chevrons, or analog gauge, and have fun.

 



	




Well, you do have to know what they are telling you so that you don't ask the display for information it can't give you.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   When I'm out mixing it up with the boys, I can pull until I feel the rumble, the needle or lights are approaching L/D max, that all means I'm getting max performance from my wing. Pull anymore, I lose,(stall),  pull any less I lose. ( The fight).

 

	




And if you are happy with your instrument then that is the instrument you should use. In my case I want information your instrument doesn't give me so it didn't serve my purposes. 

 



So, I am not trying to denigrate your LRI. I am just trying to make sure that the people on the list are aware that these instruments are NOT all equal, especially the pilots who have expectations from flying heavier iron that had true AoA instruments in them.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

Installed a LRI in our CJ about 9 years ago.

It has performed reliably, and was particularly helpful at Truckee Airport in the Sierras on warm 9,000' density altitude days a few weeks ago. Provides comfort for a day-to-day sea level pilot.

...Blitz



Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 28, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net (k7wx(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:



[quote]Brian,



What the Lift Reserve Indicator is telling you is the lift status of the wing. Certainly one of the most critical items on takeoff and approach. It's indication is independent of density altitude, airspeed, loading, etc. Sounds a lot like AOA to me. Pure AOA, combined information, whatever... this is all just chat room semantics. It is an AOA indication direct or indirect and if it adds additional information, all the better. On takeoff and landing, I'll have my eyes in this more than the airspeed indicator. It is a lovely instrument, certainly worthy or consideration by anyone who is looking to move safety up to the next level. All of these indicators (Advanced AOA, Right Angle, Alpha Systems, InAir Instruments) add the same kind of extra, very valuable information which I have come to believe is the right information for these two important aspects of flight. However, to dismiss the LRI variation on this theme is disingenuous. 

Warren



 

On Jul 26, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Many people like the the LRI. Unfortunately, the LRI does NOT display AoA, at least not directly. AoA is a factor but I was never able to discern what that instrument was telling me. From what I can tell, it displays AoA times airspeed which probably is just total lift. Regardless, it is DEFINITELY NOT pure AoA and cannot be treated as such. If you want AoA you need to get a different instrument.



===================================

//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

You care what AOA is. Doesn't help you fly better.

LRI is helpful maintaining L/D max. Vx. Cessna spent the money to determine it. LRI will maintain it as that speed changes with altitude.

Advanced system has has four ports, two came with the airplane. It still is measuring pressure differential.

We don't differ. They all tell you that. I've used them all, studied them all and you can gain what you Ned from them all. The harder you pull, the further toward the red they all move. When You get there stop pulling. There is no hidden or difficult science to any of the AOA systems. If there were, I couldn't have figured it out.

As long as you know where it will stall, you know everything. Most normal aviators will have what they need.

I have zero interest and am not promoting any one system. They were all designed to do the same thing. Different ways to skin a cat.



Bill



On Jul 28, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:



[quote]



On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   When you think about it, who cares what the angle of attack is or if it is real AOA or what the critical AOA is i.e. 15 units. 



	




Well, actually, I do. And I understand that you do not and that is just fine.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  Cessna never told me at what angle the wing will stall so I don't really care. 

 

	




Well, I don't care about the actual angle either, just where I am between an alpha of zero and critical AoA.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   What I do know from all these units is where the wing will stall. Not much more needed. I know for a fact when the LRI is loaded up in an accelerated maneuver it is still accurate. 



 	




But only WRT critical AoA. The LRI specifically is not helpful to find an alpha of zero or the alpha that produces best L/D, other points I really like to know, especially if I am vertical. 

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  As soon as the needle hits the critical AOA, you stall. Whether its 60 or 160 kts. The only unit that displays true AOA is Rite Angle. It actually has a little wing flying in undisturbed air staying parallel to the relative wind. The rest use pressure differential. They all have 2 ports, they measure the difference. 

 

	




Well, the Advanced Flight Systems AoA is a four-port device. It actually samples pitot and static pressures as well. That way it can correct for IAS leaving just AoA on the display.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  



They all tell how much lift is still available in the wing. 

 

	




I guess that is where you and I differ. I am not really interested in the lift available in the wing but what AoA the wing is operating at and the percentage of increase in AoA remains to me. It tells me how much harder I *can* pull, where best L/D is, and it tells me where to put the stick to achieve an alpha of zero if I want the aircraft ballistic or if I've botched a maneuver and want to fall through without stalling and/or spinning. Doing loops and blow your entry speed or initial pull? You can see at a glance you aren't going to make so so you just pop the stick to zero alpha and let the nose fall through. No "falling out the top" of a loop ever again. That is where you want to know alpha at something other than critical AoA (stall).

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  They tell you not when the wing will buffet, but when it actually departs. Pick your price, your display choice, many lites, few lites, chevrons, or analog gauge, and have fun.

 



	




Well, you do have to know what they are telling you so that you don't ask the display for information it can't give you.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   When I'm out mixing it up with the boys, I can pull until I feel the rumble, the needle or lights are approaching L/D max, that all means I'm getting max performance from my wing. Pull anymore, I lose,(stall),  pull any less I lose. ( The fight).

 

	




And if you are happy with your instrument then that is the instrument you should use. In my case I want information your instrument doesn't give me so it didn't serve my purposes. 

 



So, I am not trying to denigrate your LRI. I am just trying to make sure that the people on the list are aware that these instruments are NOT all equal, especially the pilots who have expectations from flying heavier iron that had true AoA instruments in them.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

Smart aviator. Just need to convince the FAA to get rid of the airspeed indicator.



Bill



On Jul 28, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



[quote]Installed a LRI in our CJ about 9 years ago.

It has performed reliably, and was particularly helpful at Truckee Airport in the Sierras on warm 9,000' density altitude days a few weeks ago. Provides comfort for a day-to-day sea level pilot.

...Blitz



Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 28, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net (k7wx(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Brian,



What the Lift Reserve Indicator is telling you is the lift status of the wing. Certainly one of the most critical items on takeoff and approach. It's indication is independent of density altitude, airspeed, loading, etc. Sounds a lot like AOA to me. Pure AOA, combined information, whatever... this is all just chat room semantics. It is an AOA indication direct or indirect and if it adds additional information, all the better. On takeoff and landing, I'll have my eyes in this more than the airspeed indicator. It is a lovely instrument, certainly worthy or consideration by anyone who is looking to move safety up to the next level. All of these indicators (Advanced AOA, Right Angle, Alpha Systems, InAir Instruments) add the same kind of extra, very valuable information which I have come to believe is the right information for these two important aspects of flight. However, to dismiss the LRI variation on this theme is disingenuous. 

Warren



 

On Jul 26, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Many people like the the LRI. Unfortunately, the LRI does NOT display AoA, at least not directly. AoA is a factor but I was never able to discern what that instrument was telling me. From what I can tell, it displays AoA times airspeed which probably is just total lift. Regardless, it is DEFINITELY NOT pure AoA and cannot be treated as such. If you want AoA you need to get a different instrument.



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[b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:02 am Post subject: Nanchang accident.

Hard to learn how to push the rudder in a hammerhead with an AOA indicator.   

 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Bill Geipel

Sent: Sat 7/28/2012 9:18 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Nanchang accident.

Smart aviator. Just need to convince the FAA to get rid of the airspeed indicator.



Bill 



On Jul 28, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com> wrote:



	Installed a LRI in our CJ about 9 years ago.

	It has performed reliably, and was particularly helpful at Truckee Airport in the Sierras on warm 9,000' density altitude days a few weeks ago. Provides comfort for a day-to-day sea level pilot.



	...Blitz

	

	Sent from my iPhone



	On Jul 28, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

	

	



		Brian, 



		What the Lift Reserve Indicator is telling you is the lift status of the wing. Certainly one of the most critical items on takeoff and approach. It's indication is independent of density altitude, airspeed, loading, etc. Sounds a lot like AOA to me. Pure AOA, combined information, whatever... this is all just chat room semantics. It is an AOA indication direct or indirect and if it adds additional information, all the better. On takeoff and landing, I'll have my eyes in this more than the airspeed indicator. It is a lovely instrument, certainly worthy or consideration by anyone who is looking to move safety up to the next level. All of these indicators (Advanced AOA, Right Angle, Alpha Systems, InAir Instruments) add the same kind of extra, very valuable information which I have come to believe is the right information for these two important aspects of flight. However, to dismiss the LRI variation on this theme is disingenuous. 



		Warren



		On Jul 26, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

			Many people like the the LRI. Unfortunately, the LRI does NOT display AoA, at least not directly. AoA is a factor but I was never able to discern what that instrument was telling me. From what I can tell, it displays AoA times airspeed which probably is just total lift. Regardless, it is DEFINITELY NOT pure AoA and cannot be treated as such. If you want AoA you need to get a different instrument.

		

		

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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:47 am Post subject: Nanchang accident.

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  

 

Hard to learn how to push the rudder in a hammerhead with an AOA indicator.  

	




But it is very useful to know where the stick needs to be for a clean vertical up-line. Most people don't realize that they tend to fly their up-line with slightly positive alpha which causes the line to bend. So the AoA indicator (one that will properly indicate zero AoA) is especially useful during initial aerobatic training. After all, it takes awhile to calibrate the seat of one's pants.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:45 am Post subject: Nanchang accident.

That's true.  



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Brian Lloyd

Sent: Sun 7/29/2012 11:45 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Nanchang accident.





On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:

	

	

	

	Hard to learn how to push the rudder in a hammerhead with an AOA indicator.  

	

But it is very useful to know where the stick needs to be for a clean vertical up-line. Most people don't realize that they tend to fly their up-line with slightly positive alpha which causes the line to bend. So the AoA indicator (one that will properly indicate zero AoA) is especially useful during initial aerobatic training. After all, it takes awhile to calibrate the seat of one's pants.



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

romaine_richard(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: Nanchang accident.

After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA  

believer...but like all good things there are limits.  AoA utility best at  

the left side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime,  

indexers best for approach.   What you need to remember is that while the  

indexers respond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the  

warning quicker than you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach  

speeds...at higher multiple g speeds the issue is less critical due to  

higher input forces.  Lesson is, instruments are good, but also listen to  

the airframe thru stick...when it's light, treat it gently.   No aoa system  

will save you if you honk a bunch of g rolling base to final.



On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to get  

the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pitot  

ice up)

Cheers, Rich Romaine



Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:20 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

Is the horse dead yet?

 IAS =  IAS regardless Of DA.  TAS increases as DA increases. Learn the way the jet feels at certain IAS and hence Alpha. But do that learning curve at altitude where you can save stupid.  Never spent much time paying attention to AOA in a furball. Certainly knew that getting slow at high alpha with a little cross control would reward one with a sphincter tightened time rocking on the NPO over-ride switch. But, hey, a departed A/C was predictable and was meat on the hook. 

Base final turn getting slow grabbing a load of G with a little top or bottom rudder will certainly make for a bad day. Since the YAK /CJ does not have an ejection seat it will probably be your last bad day. Know the numbers and fly the numbers along with the way your bird talks to you on those numbers will help save one in almost any CAV environment. An AOA indicator is gravey. Center the ball and fly a coordinated approach on the numbers coming off the perch will keep you from busting your Rosey pink. After all this hobby is a self cleaning oven without much forgiveness for being sloppy down in the weeds. 

Surprised no one has said anything about taping a Yaw string on the wind screen.

Speed is life.

Chk 6

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:31 PM, "romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)" <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:



[quote]After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA believer...but like all good things there are limits.  AoA utility best at the left side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime, indexers best for approach.   What you need to remember is that while the indexers respond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the warning quicker than you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach speeds...at higher multiple g speeds the issue is less critical due to higher input forces.  Lesson is, instruments are good, but also listen to the airframe thru stick...when it's light, treat it gently.   No aoa system will save you if you honk a bunch of g rolling base to final.



On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to get the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pitot ice up)

Cheers, Rich Romaine



Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

 ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½~ï¿½ï¿½,ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½%ï¿½ï¿½4ï¿½M4}ï¿½rï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½{(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½8^aï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Dï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Kï¿½ï¿½jï¿½ï¿½',.+-æºï¿½ï¿½5ï¿½â«hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½,zï¿½^ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½.+-ï¿½Ø¥ï¿½Øžï¿½Ëœï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Tï¿½ï¿½nï¿½+ï¿½ï¿½bï¿½p+rï¿½y'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Cï¿½	å¡§{ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½,x(Zï¿½P>-ï¿½ï¿½Zï¿½ï¿½vkï¿½ï¿½kï¿½ï¿½j+yï¿½kyï¿½mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½5ï¿½â«hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½.+-ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½fï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½rï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½Zï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½jBï¿½ï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½8ï¿½Iaï¿½T1$ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½+yï¿½\ï¿½{^ï¿½Ö¥ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½j)ZnWï¿½ï¿½ï¿½aygï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Æ¡ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½+ï¿½k&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½+ï¿½k&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½*'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Ø¨ï¿½gï¿½J+^Nï¿½ï¿½*.~ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½zwï¿½ï¿½ï¿½,ï¿½ï¿½hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½jY^.+-Ù¢ï¿½ï¿½kyï¿½mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½rï¿½ï¿½&ï¿½*'ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½fï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½rï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½nï¿½bï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ß¢{ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½nï¿½rï¿½f

[b]

k7wx

Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

Doc,



With the rotating prop just a few feet forward, would a yaw string on the windscreen of a CJ be a reliable indicator? 

Warren

 

On Jul 29, 2012, at 1:18 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

[quote]Is the horse dead yet?

 IAS =  IAS regardless Of DA.  TAS increases as DA increases. Learn the way the jet feels at certain IAS and hence Alpha. But do that learning curve at altitude where you can save stupid.  Never spent much time paying attention to AOA in a furball. Certainly knew that getting slow at high alpha with a little cross control would reward one with a sphincter tightened time rocking on the NPO over-ride switch. But, hey, a departed A/C was predictable and was meat on the hook. 

Base final turn getting slow grabbing a load of G with a little top or bottom rudder will certainly make for a bad day. Since the YAK /CJ does not have an ejection seat it will probably be your last bad day. Know the numbers and fly the numbers along with the way your bird talks to you on those numbers will help save one in almost any CAV environment. An AOA indicator is gravey. Center the ball and fly a coordinated approach on the numbers coming off the perch will keep you from busting your Rosey pink. After all this hobby is a self cleaning oven without much forgiveness for being sloppy down in the weeds. 

Surprised no one has said anything about taping a Yaw string on the wind screen.

Speed is life.

Chk 6

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:31 PM, "romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)" <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA believer...but like all good things there are limits.  AoA utility best at the left side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime, indexers best for approach.   What you need to remember is that while the indexers respond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the warning quicker than you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach speeds...at higher multiple g speeds the issue is less critical due to higher input forces.  Lesson is, instruments are good, but also listen to the airframe thru stick...when it's light, treat it gently.   No aoa system will save you if you honk a bunch of g rolling base to final.



On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to get the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pitot ice up)

Cheers, Rich Romaine



Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

 ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½~ï¿½ï¿½,ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½%ï¿½ï¿½4ï¿½M4}ï¿½rï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½{(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½8^aï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Dï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Kï¿½ï¿½jï¿½ï¿½',.+-æºï¿½ï¿½5ï¿½â«hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½,zï¿½^ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½.+-ï¿½Ø¥ï¿½Øžï¿½Ëœï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Tï¿½ï¿½nï¿½+ï¿½ï¿½bï¿½p+rï¿½y'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Cï¿½	å¡§{ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½,x(Zï¿½P>-ï¿½ï¿½Zï¿½ï¿½vkï¿½ï¿½kï¿½ï¿½j+yï¿½kyï¿½mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½5ï¿½â«hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½.+-ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½fï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½rï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½Zï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½jBï¿½ï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½8ï¿½Iaï¿½T1$ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½+yï¿½\ï¿½{^ï¿½Ö¥ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½j)ZnWï¿½ï¿½ï¿½aygï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Æ¡ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½+ï¿½k&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½+ï¿½k&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½*'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Ø¨ï¿½gï¿½J+^Nï¿½ï¿½*.~ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½zwï¿½ï¿½ï¿½,ï¿½ï¿½hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½jY^.+-Ù¢ï¿½ï¿½kyï¿½mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½rï¿½ï¿½&ï¿½*'ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½fï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½rï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½nï¿½bï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ß¢{ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½nï¿½rï¿½f





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[b]

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

Certain yaw strings may not lend themselves........lol



Bill



On Jul 29, 2012, at 3:18 PM, "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:



[quote]Is the horse dead yet?

 IAS =  IAS regardless Of DA.  TAS increases as DA increases. Learn the way the jet feels at certain IAS and hence Alpha. But do that learning curve at altitude where you can save stupid.  Never spent much time paying attention to AOA in a furball. Certainly knew that getting slow at high alpha with a little cross control would reward one with a sphincter tightened time rocking on the NPO over-ride switch. But, hey, a departed A/C was predictable and was meat on the hook. 

Base final turn getting slow grabbing a load of G with a little top or bottom rudder will certainly make for a bad day. Since the YAK /CJ does not have an ejection seat it will probably be your last bad day. Know the numbers and fly the numbers along with the way your bird talks to you on those numbers will help save one in almost any CAV environment. An AOA indicator is gravey. Center the ball and fly a coordinated approach on the numbers coming off the perch will keep you from busting your Rosey pink. After all this hobby is a self cleaning oven without much forgiveness for being sloppy down in the weeds. 

Surprised no one has said anything about taping a Yaw string on the wind screen.

Speed is life.

Chk 6

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:31 PM, "romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)" <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA believer...but like all good things there are limits.  AoA utility best at the left side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime, indexers best for approach.   What you need to remember is that while the indexers respond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the warning quicker than you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach speeds...at higher multiple g speeds the issue is less critical due to higher input forces.  Lesson is, instruments are good, but also listen to the airframe thru stick...when it's light, treat it gently.   No aoa system will save you if you honk a bunch of g rolling base to final.



On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to get the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pitot ice up)

Cheers, Rich Romaine



Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

 ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½~ï¿½ï¿½,ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½%ï¿½ï¿½4ï¿½M4}ï¿½rï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½{(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½8^aï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Dï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Kï¿½ï¿½jï¿½ï¿½',.+-æºï¿½ï¿½5ï¿½â«hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½,zï¿½^ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½.+-ï¿½Ø¥ï¿½Øžï¿½Ëœï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Tï¿½ï¿½nï¿½+ï¿½ï¿½bï¿½p+rï¿½y'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Cï¿½	å¡§{ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½,x(Zï¿½P>-ï¿½ï¿½Zï¿½ï¿½vkï¿½ï¿½kï¿½ï¿½j+yï¿½kyï¿½mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½5ï¿½â«hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½.+-ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½fï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½rï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½Zï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½jBï¿½ï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½8ï¿½Iaï¿½T1$ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½+yï¿½\ï¿½{^ï¿½Ö¥ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½j)ZnWï¿½ï¿½ï¿½aygï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Æ¡ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½+ï¿½k&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½+ï¿½k&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½*'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Ø¨ï¿½gï¿½J+^Nï¿½ï¿½*.~ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½zwï¿½ï¿½ï¿½,ï¿½ï¿½hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½jY^.+-Ù¢ï¿½ï¿½kyï¿½mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½&jï¿½ï¿½',rï¿½ï¿½rï¿½ï¿½&ï¿½*'ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½fï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½rï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½nï¿½bï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ß¢{ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½nï¿½rï¿½f





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[b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:23 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

And the point is? Answer, no.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 29, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net (k7wx(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:



[quote]Doc,



With the rotating prop just a few feet forward, would a yaw string on the windscreen of a CJ be a reliable indicator? 

Warren

 

On Jul 29, 2012, at 1:18 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Is the horse dead yet?

 IAS =  IAS regardless Of DA.  TAS increases as DA increases. Learn the way the jet feels at certain IAS and hence Alpha. But do that learning curve at altitude where you can save stupid.  Never spent much time paying attention to AOA in a furball. Certainly knew that getting slow at high alpha with a little cross control would reward one with a sphincter tightened time rocking on the NPO over-ride switch. But, hey, a departed A/C was predictable and was meat on the hook. 

Base final turn getting slow grabbing a load of G with a little top or bottom rudder will certainly make for a bad day. Since the YAK /CJ does not have an ejection seat it will probably be your last bad day. Know the numbers and fly the numbers along with the way your bird talks to you on those numbers will help save one in almost any CAV environment. An AOA indicator is gravey. Center the ball and fly a coordinated approach on the numbers coming off the perch will keep you from busting your Rosey pink. After all this hobby is a self cleaning oven without much forgiveness for being sloppy down in the weeds. 

Surprised no one has said anything about taping a Yaw string on the wind screen.

Speed is life.

Chk 6

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:31 PM, "romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)" <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA believer...but like all good things there are limits.  AoA utility best at the left side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime, indexers best for approach.   What you need to remember is that while the indexers respond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the warning quicker than you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach speeds...at higher multiple g speeds the issue is less critical due to higher input forces.  Lesson is, instruments are good, but also listen to the airframe thru stick...when it's light, treat it gently.   No aoa system will save you if you honk a bunch of g rolling base to final.



On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to get the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pitot ice up)

Cheers, Rich Romaine



Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:28 pm Post subject: Nanchang accident.

;^))



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 29, 2012, at 4:17 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:



[quote]Certain yaw strings may not lend themselves........lol



Bill



On Jul 29, 2012, at 3:18 PM, "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Is the horse dead yet?

 IAS =  IAS regardless Of DA.  TAS increases as DA increases. Learn the way the jet feels at certain IAS and hence Alpha. But do that learning curve at altitude where you can save stupid.  Never spent much time paying attention to AOA in a furball. Certainly knew that getting slow at high alpha with a little cross control would reward one with a sphincter tightened time rocking on the NPO over-ride switch. But, hey, a departed A/C was predictable and was meat on the hook. 

Base final turn getting slow grabbing a load of G with a little top or bottom rudder will certainly make for a bad day. Since the YAK /CJ does not have an ejection seat it will probably be your last bad day. Know the numbers and fly the numbers along with the way your bird talks to you on those numbers will help save one in almost any CAV environment. An AOA indicator is gravey. Center the ball and fly a coordinated approach on the numbers coming off the perch will keep you from busting your Rosey pink. After all this hobby is a self cleaning oven without much forgiveness for being sloppy down in the weeds. 

Surprised no one has said anything about taping a Yaw string on the wind screen.

Speed is life.

Chk 6

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:31 PM, "romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)" <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA believer...but like all good things there are limits.  AoA utility best at the left side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime, indexers best for approach.   What you need to remember is that while the indexers respond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the warning quicker than you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach speeds...at higher multiple g speeds the issue is less critical due to higher input forces.  Lesson is, instruments are good, but also listen to the airframe thru stick...when it's light, treat it gently.   No aoa system will save you if you honk a bunch of g rolling base to final.



On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to get the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pitot ice up)

Cheers, Rich Romaine



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