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brian(at)lloyd.com
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 Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 6:21 am Post subject: compressor issues |
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On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Sam Sax <cd001633(at)mindspring.com (cd001633(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Sam Sax" <cd001633(at)mindspring.com (cd001633(at)mindspring.com)>
Bill,
Unloading while flying not a bad idea to avoid continuous load when tank is
full but ...
|
It probably doesn't take much power from the engine once the tank is full. The force required to push the piston on compression is returned to the engine when the piston is on its downward (expansion) stroke, less frictional losses, thermal losses, and force loss due to losing air through the pop-off valve. And while I don't know what these losses are, I suspect that this makes the advantage of a bypass/unload valve much less obvious.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 6:53 am Post subject: compressor issues |
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The power loss due to the compressor is about 1 ½ HP according to the Russians, so not a huge amount extra on 400.
But We find that few compressors go to the full 500 hours if always under load, so the real advantage is the great extension in compressor life.
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: 11 May 2012 15:19
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: compressor issues
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Sam Sax <cd001633(at)mindspring.com (cd001633(at)mindspring.com)> wrote: | Quote: |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Sam Sax" <cd001633(at)mindspring.com (cd001633(at)mindspring.com)>
Bill,
Unloading while flying not a bad idea to avoid continuous load when tank is
full but ... |
It probably doesn't take much power from the engine once the tank is full. The force required to push the piston on compression is returned to the engine when the piston is on its downward (expansion) stroke, less frictional losses, thermal losses, and force loss due to losing air through the pop-off valve. And while I don't know what these losses are, I suspect that this makes the advantage of a bypass/unload valve much less obvious.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)01
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Invictawiz MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the Invictawiz MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. [quote][b]
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: compressor issues |
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On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
The power loss due to the compressor is about 1 ½ HP according to the Russians, so not a huge amount extra on 400.
But We find that few compressors go to the full 500 hours if always under load, so the real advantage is the great extension in compressor life.
|
Do you know why they fail when left under load? Valves? Bearings? Has anyone done a post-mortem? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:12 am Post subject: compressor issues |
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Heat is the killer. Usually the oil carbonizes in the internal valves. They are lubricated by engine oil. We also felt at one time that the additives in the Aeroshell 15-50 would hasten the failure. Not too sure if it is really true.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:01 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: compressor issues
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:
The power loss due to the compressor is about 1 ½ HP according to the Russians, so not a huge amount extra on 400.
But We find that few compressors go to the full 500 hours if always under load, so the real advantage is the great extension in compressor life.
Do you know why they fail when left under load? Valves? Bearings? Has anyone done a post-mortem? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA) | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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threein60(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:18 am Post subject: compressor issues |
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Attached is a picture of the compressor I have. It has an extra compression stage than the normal M14P compressor. Like I said, mine is orientated differently because of my hose routing. I did incorporate an unload feature. This feature works well but you must remember to close it before landing. I forgot once and it lead to hours of confusion as to why I wasn't making air. Other than that, I have seen no adverse affects.
Larry Pine
--- On Thu, 5/10/12, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Subject: RE: compressor issues
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, May 10, 2012, 7:05 PM
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
A few facts to consider:
AN-2: 4700 pound aircraft with a 1000 horsepower engine. Pneumatic brake system and compressor designed to bring it to a stop.
Take air compressor off 1000 HP engine and put it on 360 (or less) horsepower engine.
It fits.
Pumps up tank faster. You betcha. Which means it also places a much heavier load on the engine drive system that powers it while doing so.
The result of doing that long term? I have no idea. Maybe someone else does. I have no doubt that it works well short term. It may turn out to be a really good mod, but make no mistake that it will rob more power from the engine when it is under load. Not saying the sky is falling. Just saying that it is wise to consider such a change carefully.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) on behalf of Bill Geipel
Sent: Thu 5/10/2012 8:02 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: compressor issues
Sounds like something I should do. Thank you.
Bill
On May 10, 2012, at 9:53 AM, Larry Pine <threein60(at)yahoo.com (threein60(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
It's a little larger but still fits as an exact bolt-up. Mine is canted downward instead of the stock upwards due to hoses that I added.
Larry Pine
--- On Wed, 5/9/12, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:
From: Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)>
Subject: Re: compressor issues
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2012, 6:04 PM
Does it fit where the stock compressor does?
Bill
On May 9, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Larry Pine <threein60(at)yahoo.com (threein60(at)yahoo.com) <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=threein60(at)yahoo.com> > wrote:
I have, what I'm told is an AN2 engine driven compressor. Mine is larger than the stock M14P compresssor. Besides making air at idle, I can have an empty bottle to the point of fill while taxing. I tend to like it.. Attached is a picture.
Larry Pine
--- On Wed, 5/9/12, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net) <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> > wrote:
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net) <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> >
Subject: Re: compressor issues
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com) <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2012, 12:44 PM
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net) <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> >
EXCELLENT points Doug.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263[img]data:image/png;base64,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 F6XRGA4HAptTsdrsXeZ6fEHtl+31nAOA4rkUulz/I5XL63dQGgHEAN8Ph8AYA/BsAt4ube4GblQIAAAAASUVORK5CYII=[/img] <https://webmail.east.nmci.navy.mil/exchange/mark.bitterlich/Drafts/RE:%20Yak-List:%20compressor%20issues.EML/1_text.htm#> <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.tm=1336592194#>
334-546-8182[img]data:image/png;base64,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 F6XRGA4HAptTsdrsXeZ6fEHtl+31nAOA4rkUulz/I5XL63dQGgHEAN8Ph8AYA/BsAt4ube4GblQIAAAAASUVORK5CYII=[/img] <https://webmail.east.nmci.navy.mil/exchange/mark.bitterlich/Drafts/RE:%20Yak-List:%20compressor%20issues.EML/1_text.htm#> <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.tm=1336592194#> (mobile)
www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com/>
Skype - Yakguy1
On 5/9/2012 1:57 PM, doug sapp wrote:
> Elmar,
> The idea is a good one if you have a lot of time and a big battery.
> As with most high pressure compressors these compressors pump very
> slowly. I found that I had to install a converter to convert 110
> volts AC to 24 volts (at)20 amps DC to produce my high pressure shop air
> to check valves etc. I also tried a pair of heavy duty deep cycle 12
> volt batteries but found that when operating under any pressure at all
> the compressor sucked the batteries dry before my CJ tank was full.
>
> Doug
>
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer
> <samira.h(at)shaw.ca (samira.h(at)shaw.ca) <samira.h(at)shaw.ca (samira.h(at)shaw.ca) <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=samira.h(at)shaw.ca> >> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer
> <samira.h(at)shaw.ca (samira.h(at)shaw.ca) <samira.h(at)shaw.ca (samira.h(at)shaw.ca) <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=samira.h(at)shaw.ca> >>
>
> The other day I had a chat with a friend who
> owns a M14P powered homebuilt.
>
> He told me he doesn't have much luck with
> with the original engine driven compressor
> and is now thinking about removing and replacing
> it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi
> 27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of
> the fuselage).
>
> He has no retractable undercarriage and no
> pneumatically operated flaps and brakes,
> his air system is only used to fire up the engine.
>
> I suggested to convert to an approved electric start
> system but since he has already that surplus compressor
> (and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a try.
>
> I am always very skeptic if someone deviates
> from the designer's path, but since this is a
> homebuilt - different rules apply?
>
> What are the cons and pros of this project, I
> have never heard of anyone doing something
> similar?
>
> Your educated opinion on this matter is highly
> appreciated.
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
>
>
>
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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:30 am Post subject: compressor issues |
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On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 8:13 AM, George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com (george.coy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Heat is the killer.
|
Yeah, heat usually is. At a high-enough compression ratio I can imagine the compressor becoming a compression-ignition engine with that oil-rich environment. 
| Quote: |
Usually the oil carbonizes in the internal valves. They are lubricated by engine oil.
|
That is what I suspected the failure mode might be. Seems that just cleaning the valves would make the compressor fully operational again.
| Quote: |
We also felt at one time that the additives in the Aeroshell 15-50 would hasten the failure. Not too sure if it is really true.
|
I would expect synthetic oils with higher flash-points to be better in this respect. It would take a lot of samples to get really meaningful statistical data.
Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:10 am Post subject: compressor issues |
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Impressive.
--
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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:12 am Post subject: compressor issues |
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On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Larry Pine <threein60(at)yahoo.com (threein60(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | ... I did incorporate an unload feature. This feature works well but you must remember to close it before landing. I forgot once and it lead to hours of confusion as to why I wasn't making air. |
Ah, the law of unintended consequences. In the end, "improvements" rarely offer as much advantage as initially believed.
Nice compressor tho'. Where'd you get it?
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:14 am Post subject: compressor issues |
|
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Is there actually someone using Aeroshell W15W50 in a radial engine???????? About the only place that may be appropriate is North of 60.
Walt
From: George Coy (george.coy(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 8:13 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: compressor issues
Heat is the killer. Usually the oil carbonizes in the internal valves. They are lubricated by engine oil. We also felt at one time that the additives in the Aeroshell 15-50 would hasten the failure. Not too sure if it is really true.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:01 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: compressor issues
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:
The power loss due to the compressor is about 1 ½ HP according to the Russians, so not a huge amount extra on 400.
But We find that few compressors go to the full 500 hours if always under load, so the real advantage is the great extension in compressor life.
Do you know why they fail when left under load? Valves? Bearings? Has anyone done a post-mortem? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA) | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
0123456789
0
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richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:24 am Post subject: compressor issues |
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Mainly the valve, but then piston/rings, and sometimes bearings.
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: 11 May 2012 16:01
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: compressor issues
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:
The power loss due to the compressor is about 1 ½ HP according to the Russians, so not a huge amount extra on 400.
But We find that few compressors go to the full 500 hours if always under load, so the real advantage is the great extension in compressor life.
Do you know why they fail when left under load? Valves? Bearings? Has anyone done a post-mortem? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
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threein60(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:45 am Post subject: compressor issues |
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It was originally installed when I bough the engine from someone in a create from Russia.
Larry Pine
--- On Fri, 5/11/12, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: compressor issues
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, May 11, 2012, 9:08 AM
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Larry Pine <threein60(at)yahoo.com (threein60(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | ... I did incorporate an unload feature. This feature works well but you must remember to close it before landing. I forgot once and it lead to hours of confusion as to why I wasn't making air. |
Ah, the law of unintended consequences. In the end, "improvements" rarely offer as much advantage as initially believed.
Nice compressor tho'. Where'd you get it?
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
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czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:33 pm Post subject: compressor issues |
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How do you unload it? Pix?
Bill
On May 11, 2012, at 9:16 AM, Larry Pine <threein60(at)yahoo.com (threein60(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]Attached is a picture of the compressor I have. It has an extra compression stage than the normal M14P compressor. Like I said, mine is orientated differently because of my hose routing. I did incorporate an unload feature. This feature works well but you must remember to close it before landing. I forgot once and it lead to hours of confusion as to why I wasn't making air. Other than that, I have seen no adverse affects.
Larry Pine
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