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andrewtub

Joined: 01 Nov 2011
Posts: 18

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:57 am Post subject: 601 down...

http://www.theintelligencer.net/page/content.detail/id/567878/Plane-Crashes-In-Belmont-County.html?nav=515

rhodes1

Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Us

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject: 601 down...

Hi

Do you have any more Info.

Thanks Don

---

airvair601

Joined: 25 Jul 2009
Posts: 15

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:34 am Post subject: Re: 601 down...

Was this a "B" conversion?

_________________
Phill Hartig
N325FG
601HDS trigear,
Corvair

larrycmcfarland(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:21 am Post subject: 601 down...

Phill,

 	  Quote: 	
		  From the description of the events bringing the plane down, I'd bet it was

not B-modified to reinforce the center section and center spar.
	


Larry McFarland  601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Do not archive



--

rpf(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:31 am Post subject: 601 down...

What where the events???



Randy

---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:18 am Post subject: 601 down...

I haven't been able to find enough details about the incident to make any guess about whether or not it had been modified.



According to reports, one witness stated that the plane "nose dived" into the ground. The few photographs I have been able to dig up on-line seem to confirm that description.



At least one photo I've seen shows both wings still attached to the fuselage and in their proper positions, although severely damaged by a frontal impact. It's hard to tell because of the tarps over the wreckage but the tail cone seems to be folded up and forward over the cabin area. About what you'd expect from a high speed frontal impact. I don't see any signs of the empanage, but that could have detached on impact and been thrown clear of the crater. On the other hand, if the horizontal stabilizer became detached in the air that could cause a nose dive as described. I'm not saying this is what happened since I don't have enough details to even make a wild guess about the cause. I think it would be a good idea to wait for a report from someone who actually knows what they're talking about before making any further comments.



On Apr 6, 2012, at 10:20 AM, Larry McFarland wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Phill,

 From the description of the events bringing the plane down, I'd bet it was

 not B-modified to reinforce the center section and center spar.

 Larry McFarland  601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

 Do not archive

 

 

 

 

 Was this a "B" conversion?

 

 --------

 Phill Hartig

 N325FG

 601HDS trigear, 

 Corvair


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:31 am Post subject: 601 down...

What the picture shows----- Are you talking  about the picture that was in 

the newspaper?



It is hard to tell even blowing the picture up in size.



In what appears to be the wings, on the left side of the picture, are we 

looking at a "wing spar" minus the leading edge skin and ribs or what?   It 

looks to big to be the aft spar minus  flaps and aileron????????   I can't 

tell.

---

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: 601 down...

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject: 601 down...

Nice job finding those pictures, Sabrina.



I did a little playing around with the three images and came to some 

conclusions.



In the small picture, I think we are looking at the right wing aileron 

and flap structure.  I can't see the rivet lines or any suggestion that 

there was a balance bar installed in the aileron tip as required by the 

"Update".



In one large picture I can see the left elevator and the curved front of 

the rudder (the bent sheet of aluminum that mates with the aft area of 

the fuselage).  I can't see the whole rudder, but that doesn't tell me 

anything.



In the other large picture I see both tires suggesting we are looking at 

the wreckage from the tail end (it could be the nose, but I think it is 

more likely the tail).  Again I can see an aileron (this time the left 

aileron at the left side of the photo).  Even with some fooling around 

with the contrast and colors I see no rivet line or any other evidence 

that mass balance "Update" has been applied to this plane.



I looked all over the FAA and NTSB accident databases and found next to 

nothing.  The FAA database shows a small reference to the accident and 

nothing shows up on the NTSB database.  FAA data shows the accident took 

place March 30, 2012 at Belmont, OH.  One fatality. Tail number N8060J.  

I didn't look up the N number today but I did a few days ago and it is 

in the registry.

My best guess is that this plane did not receive the AMD "Update".  I 

would also hazard a wild guess that it did not experience an in flight 

structure failure since all the parts seem to be together.  This is just 

a guess because there is so little real information I could get out of 

these pictures.



I think the NTSB investigates all fatal accidents, but so far I don't 

think they have any information posted.  Perhaps a few weeks will change 

that status.  Of course - since this was a home built plane rather than 

a factory one they may not investigate it at all.



Paul

Camas, WA

N773PM in phase 1 flight test.



On 4/7/2012 3:48 PM, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Do Not Archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370250#370250





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/17302455_bg1_158.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/17299260_bg1_212.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/unknown_192.jpeg

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: 601 down...

I see the wing stiffeners have been installed and I also see a green primer  line that could be from painting the balance arm and given the fact the  wings are in the proper position I would bet it was upgraded. I have seen  landings so hard the main gear tire hit the lower wing skin and did no damage to  the upgrade so given the force of this impact and the wings look relatively fine  I'd say it was done.

  

 Jeff

  

  In a message dated 4/7/2012 7:58:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, psm(at)att.net  writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>



Nice    job finding those pictures, Sabrina.



I did a little playing around with    the three images and came to some 

conclusions.



In the small    picture, I think we are looking at the right wing aileron 

and flap    structure.  I can't see the rivet lines or any suggestion that 

there    was a balance bar installed in the aileron tip as required by the    

"Update".



In one large picture I can see the left elevator and the    curved front of 

the rudder (the bent sheet of aluminum that mates with the    aft area of 

the fuselage).  I can't see the whole rudder, but that    doesn't tell me 

anything.



In the other large picture I see both    tires suggesting we are looking at 

the wreckage from the tail end (it    could be the nose, but I think it is 

more likely the tail).  Again I    can see an aileron (this time the left 

aileron at the left side of the    photo).  Even with some fooling around 

with the contrast and colors I    see no rivet line or any other evidence 

that mass balance "Update" has    been applied to this plane.



I looked all over the FAA and NTSB accident    databases and found next to 

nothing.  The FAA database shows a small    reference to the accident and 

nothing shows up on the NTSB database.     FAA data shows the accident took 

place March 30, 2012 at Belmont,    OH.  One fatality. Tail number N8060J.  

I didn't look up the N    number today but I did a few days ago and it is 

in the    registry.

My best guess is that this plane did not receive the AMD    "Update".  I 

would also hazard a wild guess that it did not    experience an in flight 

structure failure since all the parts seem to be    together.  This is just 

a guess because there is so little real    information I could get out of 

these pictures.



I think the NTSB    investigates all fatal accidents, but so far I don't 

think they have any    information posted.  Perhaps a few weeks will change 

that    status.  Of course - since this was a home built plane rather than 

a    factory one they may not investigate it at all.



Paul

Camas,    WA

N773PM in phase 1 flight test.



On 4/7/2012 3:48 PM, Sabrina    wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   -->  Zenith601-List message posted by:    "Sabrina"<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



 Do Not    Archive





 Read this topic online    here:



    http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370250#370250





    Attachments:



    http://forums.matronics.com//files/17302455_bg1_158.jpg

    http://forums.matronics.com//files/17299260_bg1_212.jpg

    http://forums.matronics.com//files/unknown_192.jpeg

&gse the  ies  ay                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS               - List Contribution Web Site  p;                             
	




	


 [quote][b]

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:39 am Post subject: Re: 601 down...

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Sat May 05, 2012 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:44 pm Post subject: 601 down...

This series of photos does seem to show that all the major parts of the airplane are still attached. And it does seem to have impacted vertically, nose first. I can't think of many scenarios that could cause this kind of crash in this aircraft. Low altitude upset? Jammed flight controls? Pilot incapacitation? We'll have to wait for further investigation for any answers. It would seem that whether or not the plane was modified to "B" configuration is irrelevant given that the plane appears to have been intact when it hit the ground. But it's hard to tell very much for certain from a few photographs.



On Apr 7, 2012, at 6:48 PM, Sabrina wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/17302455_bg1_158.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/17299260_bg1_212.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/unknown_192.jpeg

 

 


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:15 am Post subject: 601 down...

I hope we can all exercise a little patience trying to figure out what 

happened with this accident.



I contacted a friend at NTSB and learned we should be getting a 

preliminary report any day now.  They are due 5 business days after the 

accident but subject to normal delays.  Today is only the 6th business 

day since March 30 because of the weekends and holidays (maybe only 5 if 

Good Friday counts).



Paul

On 4/8/2012 9:39 AM, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Jeff has a good point... some builders installed the arm near the third aileron rib rather than near the outboard rib.

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:04 am Post subject: 601 down...

The NTSB preliminary report for the March       30, 2012 accident in Belmont, OH has been posted.  It's     NTSB identification is CEN12FA217.

     

     It says (in effect) that the Zodiac XL did indeed have the upgrade     installed and did not suffer "Signature" flutter or in flight     structure failure.  There was no explanation for the accident other     than an in-flight loss of control.

     

     Paul

     Camas, WA

     

      [quote][b]

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: Re: 601 down...

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Sat May 05, 2012 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:55 am Post subject: 601 down...

Hi Sabrina,



For the most part I chose to ignore the various "Solutions" for the 

Zodiac XL failures offered by CH and his offspring until the AMD update 

was released and "Demanded" by the FAA.  I did set the cable tensions 

according to one of those letters, but that was because the prints were 

silent on that matter.  My control surface displacements are according 

to the prints I purchased in 2006.



I think the key to understanding the nature of all the silly "Changes" 

from the Heintz clan before the AMD update is the fact that all these 

new requirements like the elevator displacements only apply to the XL.  

Apparently builders of earlier models didn't have problems maintaining 

and flying their airplanes but XL builders included a bunch of idiots 

that were causing the wings to regularly fall off.  The Heintz clan 

remained in denial of the fact of design flaws in the XL until the FAA 

guys pointed the flaws out to them.



Paul

XL nearing completion of phase I flight testing.



On 4/13/2012 8:31 AM, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 How many on this list limited your craft's elevator travel per the March 2008 letter and kept it that way after the upgrade?



 The letter, which of course predated the upgrade, warned that doing so was at the expense of great low speed controllability and the superior elevator authority that may be required to compensate for a craft flying in/into an incorrect weight and balance situation.

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: 601 down...

As i understand it, acft impacted almost vertically  

For those in 601XL flight test, and others, if you have never explored this part of your flight envelop:

At or above 3000 ft AGL

Make sure lose articles in cockpit are secure 

Make sure seat belt is tight. 

Clear area. 

Apply carb heat as req. 

 Retard throttle 

Slowly enter into stall buffeting/"bobbing". 

Keep wings level with rudder as req while still in stall regime. 

Abruptly/rapidly pull stick full aft in attempt to fully stall wing or horz stab. 

In my acft, the pitch down is abrupt-without a seat belt I would probably go through the canopy. If pitched straight down, remember to neutralize stick, use rudder as req to prevent any roll and to recover w/o excessive Gs. 

Tony Graziano

601xl/jab. N493TG; 655 hrs

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 13, 2012, at 10:55 AM, Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hi Sabrina,

 For the most part I chose to ignore the various "Solutions" for the Zodiac XL failures offered by CH and his offspring until the AMD update was released and "Demanded" by the FAA.  I did set the cable tensions according to one of those letters, but that was because the prints were silent on that matter.  My control surface displacements are according to the prints I purchased in 2006.

 I think the key to understanding the nature of all the silly "Changes" from the Heintz clan before the AMD update is the fact that all these new requirements like the elevator displacements only apply to the XL.  Apparently builders of earlier models didn't have problems maintaining and flying their airplanes but XL builders included a bunch of idiots that were causing the wings to regularly fall off.  The Heintz clan remained in denial of the fact of design flaws in the XL until the FAA guys pointed the flaws out to them.

 Paul

 XL nearing completion of phase I flight testing.

 On 4/13/2012 8:31 AM, Sabrina wrote:

> 

> 

> How many on this list limited your craft's elevator travel per the March 2008 letter and kept it that way after the upgrade?

> 

> The letter, which of course predated the upgrade, warned that doing so was at the expense of great low speed controllability and the superior elevator authority that may be required to compensate for a craft flying in/into an incorrect weight and balance situation.

> 

>

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:53 pm Post subject: 601 down...

Hi Tony,



Very interesting post.  Thank you.



Let me add for those with no aerobatic training . . . whenever you find 

yourself in a steep descent the first thing to do is pull power back to 

idle.  This will prevent over-speed and also allow for a relatively low 

G pullout.  Then a very gentle back pressure on the stick will get you 

back to level flight a lot faster than you expect.



Paul



On 4/13/2012 12:56 PM, Tonyplane wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 As i understand it, acft impacted almost vertically

 For those in 601XL flight test, and others, if you have never explored this part of your flight envelop:



 At or above 3000 ft AGL

 Make sure lose articles in cockpit are secure

 Make sure seat belt is tight.

 Clear area.

 Apply carb heat as req.

   Retard throttle

 Slowly enter into stall buffeting/"bobbing".

 Keep wings level with rudder as req while still in stall regime.

 Abruptly/rapidly pull stick full aft in attempt to fully stall wing or horz stab.



 In my acft, the pitch down is abrupt-without a seat belt I would probably go through the canopy. If pitched straight down, remember to neutralize stick, use rudder as req to prevent any roll and to recover w/o excessive Gs.



 Tony Graziano

 601xl/jab. N493TG; 655 hrs



 Sent from my iPhone

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:05 am Post subject: 601 down...

I was taught not to throw stones in a glass house but you must be all out  of stones and wonder why it is so breezy inside.

  

 Jeff

  

  In a message dated 4/13/2012 11:56:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  psm(at)att.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  XL    builders included a bunch of idiots 

that were causing the wings to    regularly fall off 	


 [quote][b]

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:16 am Post subject: 601 down...

Jeff,

     

     I'm sorry you didn't get my irony.  The point was my BS detectors     were going off as soon as the Heintz clan decided to blame builders     and owners for the XL failures.  I wasn't sure of the cause until     long after the FAA guys announced they had found it, but I couldn't     help notice that it was only XL builders of Zodiacs who were causing     failures and not those who built earlier models.  The Heintzs were     so cocksure the design was OK they wouldn't even try to find the     problem.

     

     One thing I haven't yet mentioned on the email list.  I spent a     couple of years traveling around the country talking to various     experts over the XL issue.  I was surprised to learn the kit plane     industry has a long history of horrible design problems.  I guess we     take for granted that anyone offering kits has a competent design     built into them.  Even after vetting a design through the experts at     EAA and studying the accident history of a popular design such as     the Zodiac I still wound up with a turkey.  It could have been     worse.  I learned from an NTSB guy at Oshkosh that Jim Bede had a     long history if disappointing his many customers.  In the BD-5 case     he refused to send out the final kit part, the engine cowl, to any     of this customers because he knew many of them would get killed if     they got to fly their planes.  If they made their own cowl and then     killed themselves they couldn't blame Bede.  At least in the XL case     the problems were eventually identified and apparently fixed with     the AMD update.  Now we have a sound design for our planes.

     

     Besides, I live on a mountain composed primarily of rock.  I will     never run out of stones to throw.  The only breeze in my house comes     from the heat pump.

     

     Best regards,

     

     Paul

     

     On 4/14/2012 6:04 AM, Afterfxllc(at)aol.com (Afterfxllc(at)aol.com) wrote:     [quote]                              I was taught not to throw stones in a glass house but you           must be all out of stones and wonder why it is so breezy           inside.

          

         Jeff

          

                    In a message dated 4/13/2012 11:56:18 A.M. Eastern             Daylight Time, psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net) writes:

            	  Quote: 	
		  XL               builders included a bunch of idiots 

               that were causing the wings to regularly fall off 	
         

               	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

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