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Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184

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pmather

Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 33

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:22 am Post subject: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184

Can anyone tell me the purpose of the third wire on the connector of this

alternator?



The cable supplied by Vans has Black - ground; green - field; white - not

connected.



I'm looking at using a regulator that has a stator connection which it uses

to drive an ignition light - is the white connection to the stator?



Thanks in advance 



Peter

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184

At 01:17 PM 12/16/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Can anyone tell me the purpose of the third wire on the connector of this

alternator?



The cable supplied by Vans has Black - ground; green - field; white - not

connected.



I'm looking at using a regulator that has a stator connection which it uses

to drive an ignition light - is the white connection to the stator?


	


     Does Van's alternator REQUIRE an external

     regulator? Last time I looked, their offerings

     were internally regulated. Can you post an excerpt

     of the schematic . . . or point us to a link where

     your applicable schematic is visible?



     Trying to give useful advise based on numbers of

     pins and colors of wires is risky. The SCHEMATICS

     associated with the products being explored are

     necessary for offering well considered advice.

   Bob . . .

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pmather

Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 33

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184

Bob



The alternator is one Vans were selling back in 04. It is externally

regulated and Vans then  recommended a VR-1751 or MS-150A regulator but

always said to leave the white lead "unconnected"



I can't see what else the third wire could be except a stator connection but

any suggestions or test ideas would be appreciated.



Best Regards



Peter



--

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184

At 04:48 PM 12/16/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob



The alternator is one Vans were selling back in 04. It is externally

regulated and Vans then  recommended a VR-1751 or MS-150A regulator but

always said to leave the white lead "unconnected"



I can't see what else the third wire could be except a stator connection but

any suggestions or test ideas would be appreciated.



Best Regards



Peter


	


    Okay. If there's no regulator built in, then the

    third wire cannot be for the legacy "alternator

    inop light" provided by most built in regulators.

    This leaves the possibility that it is a stator

    tap for a y-wound alternator.



    Do an ohmmeter test between this connection and

    the alternator case. Check the indicated resistance

    for both polarities of the meter leads. One should

    be some 'low' value while the other will be very

    high if not infinite. This the expected display

    for looking at the resistance of the lower trio

    of diodes.



    Then do the same test between the 'third lead' and

    the b-terminal. You should see similar if not identical

    readings for the upper trio of diodes.



    Finally, in MIGHT be that Van was selling a modified

    automotive alternator wherein an internal regulator

    was removed. In this case, connections of the third

    lead are left up to the modifier . . . but is likely

    to be open circuit to any other portion of the

    alternator's internals.



    It's a game of non-invasive Clue . . . except that

    nobody died at the hands of Col. Mustard in the

    parlor by hanging.



    Whoops!



    Speaking of clues . . . I missed the one you provided

    in the subject line. Fooey . . . I've not finished

    my first cup of coffee . . . if that's a valid excuse.



    Okay, go to the Motorcar Parts of America website

    at



http://www.onlinetechhelp.com/picturesPlus1.php



    and enter your 14184 in the part number search.

    Don't know why this takes you to a page featuring

    TWO part numbers, but select 14184.



    There you will find a drawing that gives dimensions,

    a picture of the device and a connector pin-out diagram.

    In this case, the mystery "third lead" is indeed a

    stator tap connection.



    The MPA website belongs to the company that

    offered me detailed insight into the alternator

    remanufacturing business several years ago. I gave

    a brief accounting of a tour of their Tijuana, MX

    facility in Revision 12, Chapter 3 of the 'Connection.

    Newcomers to the List might wish to avail themselves

    of that description. It's an eye-opener. I suggest

    that everyone bookmark this website in their browser.

    It's a huge repository of useful information.



    I was tempted to delete the opening soliloquy to

    gloss over my lack of due diligence in sorting the

    data you offered. But it's still a valid technique

    for making useful deductions on parts not so well

    identified as yours.



    So here it is . . . warts and all. I'm going for

    another cup of coffee.

   Bob . . .

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pmather

Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 33

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184

Bob



Thanks for that - I should have worked that one out for myself. Anyway, I've

just tested as suggested using the diode setting on my DMM and it is

definitely stator.



Have you had a look at the STMicroelectronics alternator regulator chips?

Single chip does everything, easy to package.



The top of the ranhge version seems to be 



http://www.st.com/internet/automotive/product/89833.jsp



Best regards



Peter



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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:44 am Post subject: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184

 	  Quote: 	
		  Have you had a look at the STMicroelectronics alternator regulator chips?

Single chip does everything, easy to package.


	


    I've not seen those devices before. Nice. They

    have a built in power fet for controlling the

    field.



    The problem with most regulator products is that

    they're designed to integrate with modern engine

    controllers and even the older chips (20+ years)

    have a phase sense pin that shuts the field current

    off until the alternator is sensed to be rotating.

    Not sure how this particular chip works but the

    device I first evaluated



http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Misc/Freescale/MC33092A_Simplified.pdf



    also has this 'phase input signal' on pin 10

    that had to be 'fooled' believing that the

    alternator was turning. Otherwise, I needed to

    bring a phase sample out of the alternator (yet

    another airframe wire) to accommodate the

    chip's design goals.



    I've considered a number of new design projects

    for regulators friendly to the legacy, external

    regulator philosophy . . . but there's just too

    many perfectly acceptable regulators out there

    already.



    If I do one in the future, it will be processor

    based and feature some diagnostic outputs . . .

    THAT's a feature that the contemporary COTS

    products don't have. The L9911 chip you cited

    does have diagnostics tailored to the automotive

    engine controller world . . . I'd probably go

    more for a human readable output of some kind.



    That's WAaaayyyy back on the stove's burners  . . .

   Bob . . .

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