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Recommendation M-14 engines
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:15 am Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

Sorry.  Thought he meant it could be used to TIME THE ENGINE.  I had

assumed he was responding to the message string.  



So yep, agree... it would be better than a screwdriver stuck in the

sparkplug hole to find TDC, which is less than good.    



Mark



p.s.  I re-started this work address, and will see what happens.  You

know what I am talking about Dennis.  



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:18 am Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.  Yes, you are correct on TDC

finder.  Correct on pointer, but hard to do with spinner, but Dennis

showed me a tool to take care of that too.  



It's been done "by the book" for decades, and it obviously works.  That

said, I have my doubts on what the timing REALLY is when using this

method.  Sure it works, the engine runs, and the mag drop is fine... but

is every engine set this way accurate to within a degree?  I'm not sure,

but I kinda doubt it.  



The TIMERITE might work in this regard (only on fixed timing mags; per

Walt's comments) but it may be not much better than what we have.

However, it would not hurt in any way to have the company be convinced

to make the proper parts to support the M-14 engine (Again; with the

right mags).  



Mark

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:33 am Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

Didier, 



If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE worked

corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and HOPEFULLY

time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable results. You

could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any other

tools.  It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead Center tool,

which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that also

revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the

difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of it.  In

any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the proper

position so as to set the mags properly.  Putting a piece of safety wire

on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is all well

and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet another

tool, etc.  There is also the matter of gear lash in the planetary gear

assy, since this is a geared engine.  Get that wrong, and your timing is

going to incorrect as well.  



In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip mounted

externally on ANY engine.  Just how accurate is that piece?  Do you know

for sure?  Nope... no way you can know for sure.  When you use something

that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I believe you

can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something someone

else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.  



Listen... to all that read this.  I am not recommending to anyone that

they change whatever they happen to like doing.  There is no argument or

debate intended here.  The goal was simply to get a company to make

parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines.  Whether

anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really not the

point.  It just never hurts to have other options.  



Or am I missing something here?  Wouldn't be the first time for that

either.  



Mark

--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:00 am Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

mark,

from what I can tell so far, the Russian timing light does pretty much that. Getting your hands on one though is the challenge.

Doc



--

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:10 am Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

The TIMERITE is, as Mark indicated, a very dependable and accurate 

instrument.  It is relatively simple and easy to use.  Since it is using 

piston position directly there is no need for a precise location of TDC (in 

angular terms) only an assurance that the piston is at TDC on the 

compression stroke.  This can be determined with your thumb.



If ATS could be persuaded to manufacture the necessary arm and scale for 

their existing unit it would be by far the best way to time the M14P with 

M9F (fixed spark) mags.

which is most engines.



Walt

---

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:20 am Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

OK Mark



I get it.

We are very happy in Europe to know that in the US you know how to reproduce tools and parts for our old plane. And often better than the original. So yes I get it and I will also ring Timerite to add a voice to the count. Even if at the end everybody is using whatever tool tyhey want at least that would fix a standard tool.

  

Get it



thanks for all your effort to make me understand



Cheers and FLY SAFE PLEASE for the sake of the Yak community.



Didier



2011/10/11 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

   

 Didier,

 

 If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE worked

 corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and HOPEFULLY

 time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable results. You

 could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any other

 tools.  It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead Center tool,

 which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that also

 revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the

 difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of it.  In

 any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the proper

 position so as to set the mags properly.  Putting a piece of safety wire

 on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is all well

 and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet another

 tool, etc.  There is also the matter of gear lash in the planetary gear

 assy, since this is a geared engine.  Get that wrong, and your timing is

 going to incorrect as well.

 

 In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip mounted

 externally on ANY engine.  Just how accurate is that piece?  Do you know

 for sure?  Nope... no way you can know for sure.  When you use something

 that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I believe you

 can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something someone

 else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.

 

 Listen... to all that read this.  I am not recommending to anyone that

 they change whatever they happen to like doing.  There is no argument or

 debate intended here.  The goal was simply to get a company to make

 parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines.  Whether

 anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really not the

 point.  It just never hurts to have other options.

 

 Or am I missing something here?  Wouldn't be the first time for that

 either.

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:57 am Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

Excuse me?  "The Russian Timing Light" ??  Not aware of same.  How does it work?  Most timing lights I have used are triggered off the spark plug firing.  That then fires the light.  But this is a geared engine?  I am also not so sure I would want to be sitting there with the engine running and the prop RIGHT THERE!  



Any more details on this?  



Mark

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:02 am Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

Thanks for making perfectly clear what I was struggling to get across. 



Mark

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:10 am Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

Thanks Didier, and my apologies for explaining all this poorly.  Please

see Walt's comments for a clear and concise explanation.  Also, my last

post to you was not proof read very carefully.  Sorry for all the

grammatical errors as well! 



Take care, and thanks for all your help with other issues over in Europe

as well.  



Mark





--

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

Mark



always a pleasure speaking with pleasant and passionnate people.



Thanks to you Mark and with you all the people that we know well.



Now I know what it is to try to do something when nobody does and receive only criticism and misplaced remarks..... 

  

You there on the other side are giving us strenght.



kind regards



Didier

2011/10/11 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

   

 

Thanks Didier, and my apologies for explaining all this poorly.  Please

 see Walt's comments for a clear and concise explanation.  Also, my last

 post to you was not proof read very carefully.  Sorry for all the

 grammatical errors as well!

 

 Take care, and thanks for all your help with other issues over in Europe

 as well.

 

 Mark

 

 

 

 

 --

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject: Recommendation M-14 engines

Maybe the Russian timing light looks somrthing like the Russian land mine 

detector.

---

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