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Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

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Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:57 am Post subject: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

Kolb people, or more specifically, guys that like VGs,

  

   I've read quite a bit, including a few of you guys' websites regarding VGs.

 I really like the looks of the Stolspeed VGs, but the Landshorters aren't bad,

 either.

   I have a question for you; Have you compared the Landshorters against the 

 Stolspeeds?

  

   Plus, how big are they?  (What are the dimensions of the actual VG?)  Photos

 don't really give much of a detailed idea how big they are.

  

   For anyone who wants to give a thorough description, is there anything you

 might do different if you were to install them again (closer spacing, more forward 

 placement, etc, etc)?

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

Mike,



I made my own from aluminum flashing following some Kolber's prior experimentation and drawings. I think it was either Richard Pike or Jack Hart who provided the drawing, or perhaps someone else. Sorry I don't remember for certain, but thanks to whoever it was!



I first installed them on my old early Firestar imagining erroneously that I knew better than the experts as to their proper location. Placed in one of the many possible wrong locations, the stall speed decreased but it rendered the stall quality more abrupt and not to my liking, so I removed them.



After acquiring my Slingshot, which could really use a reduced stall speed, I followed the experts' instructions and located the same home-made VGs with the high point of the VG at the 10% chord location. I put one double-vane VG in the valley between each rib and false rib. My SS stall speed (IAS) was reduced markedly from 45 mph without flaps to something under 40 mph, if I had more elevator travel (or put VGs under my horzontal stabilizer). As it is (and I like it this way) the no flaps minimum airspeed (stick in my gut) is 42 mph and I can do normal turns at this airspeed without incident. The 1/2 flap stall speed went from 42 mph to 37 mph. The stall quality is unchanged with the VGs at the proper location. I rarely use full flaps and have never tested stall speed with full flaps, either before or after. BTW, my ASI equals TAS at about 2,000' density altitude.



Bottom line is that the difference in performance between one brand and another(or home-made) is probably not significant enough to measure but, as in real estate, location is pretty important. 



I have no plans to ever remove the home-made VGs from my Slingshot. However, if I had it to do over again, I'd probably spend the $100 for store-bought ones 'cuz they are prettier and almost invisible if you are not looking for them. 



Which to buy is then a personal choice with probably no measurable difference in performance. Buy the ones you like the most.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

Mike,



I just found the source of the drawing for my home-made VGs. It was indeed Jack Hart. Here is a link to one of the VG pages on his excellent website:



http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly19.html



Notes:

1) I did not go to such lengths to get the home-made VGs to be all identical. I just marked and bent them over the edge of my work table edge.

2) Do not worry about them coming off. I used nothing but plain old black electrical tape, one piece going down the center of the VG between the vanes. Since my VGs are black the black tape looks more or less like it should look. I've been to over 100 mph in my SS and have not lost a VG yet.

3) If you decide to make your own, be sure to round off the sharp points or they will get you. They are meat-hooks, like poorly finished safety wire.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:14 pm Post subject: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

Thom,

  

   Thanks for the in-depth report.  I agree, it appears there isn't as much difference

 in brands, whether they be home-made or store bought, as there is in placement.

 Fortunately, there are several happy Kolb VG users, the placement seems to be

 in the valley between the ribs and half-ribs.

  

   Jack's website is the one that shows actual dimensions of his home-made VGs.

 He made his out of gutter aluminum.  Since I am (on purpose) unemployed, I don't

 have much spending moola.  I do, however, have quite a bit of spare time.

  

   I seem to cut myself enough as it is, so I don't think I will use thin aluminum to make 

 my VGs.  ( I cut the living B'jesus out of the end of my right thumb two weeks ago

 with my angle grinder...... darn near needed stitches!!)  

   So, instead of aluminum, I've been doing some experimenting with Lexan.  I've made a few

 'test samples' of VGs, primarily to see if they are strong enough for the task!  The results

 so far are very promising.

   I think, if I had to make my own using sheet aluminum, I'd rather buy the Lexan VGs.

 Maybe that's just me, 'cause I can picture bright red drops all over the tops of my wings!!

  

   I have tons of .90" & .125" Lexan sheet, and like I said, I have more time than money.

 I'll probably go with my home-made ones.  If they don't turn out beautiful, I'll chuck 'em,

 and order the StolSpeeds.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

Mike,

I now have some .020" Lexan sheet that I would have made the VGs from if I had had the material at the time I made mine. I got this from McMaster-Carr. .020" is plenty stiff to hold their shape and a lot easier to form than thicker.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

>   I have tons of .90" & .125" Lexan sheet, and like I said, I have more time than money.

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'll probably go with my home-made ones.  If they don't turn out beautiful, I'll chuck 'em,

 and order the StolSpeeds.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII 


	


You plan to test fly, get accustomed to your new airplane, with or without your new VGs?



john h

mkIII

Goodland, KS

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:04 pm Post subject: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

> You plan to test fly, get accustomed to your new airplane, with or without your new VGs?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 john h

 mkIII

 Goodland, KS

  
	


 John,

  

   Since I haven't heard of anyone saying that installing the VGs made the plane fly worse,

 (assuming a proper, proven installation), I'd say, yeah, I'd probably begin flying my plane

 with VGs.  I don't think I know "why not?"

  

   From what I have heard, read, researched, etc, etc, the addition of VGs lowers stall speed,

 make slow flight more controllable, plus a few other positive tendencies.  Why would it be

 a bad thing to NOT start off with VGs?

  

   I am ALWAYS willing to learn, especially from those that know more them me.  What is the 

 List's opinion on flying a new plane with VGs??

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII



 		 	   		    [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:24 pm Post subject: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

Having not flown with VG's, but not having heartburn about it either way, I'd suggest learning to fly your plane without them first. And I mean really learn to fly it, not go around the pattern and then go put the VG's on. The Kolb can be a funny creature and I would want to know that I have everything adjusted properly and I know how to fly it before I started screwing with it aerodynamically. Otherwise how do you know the VG's aren't masking some trait you should take the time to adjust out. My 2 cents.

Rick



On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		       > You plan to test fly, get accustomed to your new airplane, with or without your new VGs?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 john h

 mkIII

 Goodland, KS

  
	


 John,

  

   Since I haven't heard of anyone saying that installing the VGs made the plane fly worse,

 (assuming a proper, proven installation), I'd say, yeah, I'd probably begin flying my plane

 with VGs.  I don't think I know "why not?"

  

   From what I have heard, read, researched, etc, etc, the addition of VGs lowers stall speed,

 make slow flight more controllable, plus a few other positive tendencies.  Why would it be

 a bad thing to NOT start off with VGs?

  

   I am ALWAYS willing to learn, especially from those that know more them me.  What is the 

 List's opinion on flying a new plane with VGs??

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII



 		 	   		     	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:33 pm Post subject: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

I don't see any problem with starting out with them but,  if you plan on flying in windy air a lot you may be better off without them.This isn't a factor on a Slingshot because that one likes to hug the ground but on a FS or a MkIII, it is reassuring during rollout and

taxi to have a little LESS lift.  Unless you are planting it in a pea patch all the time that 5 mph stall doesn't make a lot of difference.

BB

happy with my old tugboat



On 25, May 2011, at 5:01 PM, Mike Welch wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > You plan to test fly, get accustomed to your new airplane, with or without your new VGs?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 john h

 mkIII

 Goodland, KS

 
	


John,

 

  Since I haven't heard of anyone saying that installing the VGs made the plane fly worse,

(assuming a proper, proven installation), I'd say, yeah, I'd probably begin flying my plane

with VGs.  I don't think I know "why not?"

 

  From what I have heard, read, researched, etc, etc, the addition of VGs lowers stall speed,

make slow flight more controllable, plus a few other positive tendencies.  Why would it be

a bad thing to NOT start off with VGs?

 

  I am ALWAYS willing to learn, especially from those that know more them me.  What is the 

List's opinion on flying a new plane with VGs??

 

Mike Welch

MkIII



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


 [quote][b]

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

Kolb guys,

  

   As I always maintain, I'm more than willing to listen to an experienced pilot.

 I may not always do as suggested, but I certainly recognize good information,

 and I believe I usually follow that good advice.

  

   I'm very much open to flying the plane first, then adding VGs later.  Whether I

 start off with them, or add them later, I expect I'll end up with them at some point.

 The reason is; from everything I've seen and heard, I want what they provide.

 I'm not concerned about my plane having "whiskers", either.  (as long as they don't 

 draw blood)

  

   I don't think I've ever heard.....does the Kolb Company take a position on VGs??  Bryan??

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

  

   

 

   From: slyck(at)frontiernet.net

Subject: Re: Re: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:30:53 -0400

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



 I don't see any problem with starting out with them but,  if you plan on flying in windy air a lot you may be better off without them. This isn't a factor on a Slingshot because that one likes to hug the ground but on a FS or a MkIII, it is reassuring during rollout and

 taxi to have a little LESS lift.  Unless you are planting it in a pea patch all the time that 5 mph stall doesn't make a lot of difference.

 BB

 happy with my old tugboat

 

  On 25, May 2011, at 5:01 PM, Mike Welch wrote:

 [quote] > You plan to test fly, get accustomed to your new airplane, with or without your new VGs?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 john h

 mkIII

 Goodland, KS

 
	


John,

 

  Since I haven't heard of anyone saying that installing the VGs made the plane fly worse,

(assuming a proper, proven installation), I'd say, yeah, I'd probably begin flying my plane

with VGs.  I don't think I know "why not?"

 

  From what I have heard, read, researched, etc, etc, the addition of VGs lowers stall speed,

make slow flight more controllable, plus a few other positive tendencies.  Why would it be

a bad thing to NOT start off with VGs?

 

  I am ALWAYS willing to learn, especially from those that know more them me.  What is the 

List's opinion on flying a new plane with VGs??

 

Mike Welch

MkIII



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	






arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

Hi Mike ,



I have the Air Wave VG's on my M3X...$50.00 for 100  and I have I believe ,96 ( ? ) on the wing and 68 I think on the tail.here is the link for them...      http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/airwavevortexgen.php



They worked on mine...



chris ambrose

M3X/Jabiru A-2200

N327 CS

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

List,

 Have Landshorter VG,s on the MK3.Love the way it handles.Got some  Stolspeeds from John Gilpin in Australia for free to do some wag testing.Not much help in the wag dept They differ from the Landshorters because of the rounded rear edge.No sharp edges to snag a towel or cut your fingers,plus the adheasive he uses is 3M,the type you can pry off gently leaving a sticky pad that you can rub until it rolls up in a ball.It holds them securely but are very removable.They are pre-punched ovals on a sheet.You peel and stick on the VG then peel the paper off the bottom and place them.I had a friend who was looking for vgs so I offered to pay for the lot if he sent me enough for the wing on a mk3. $85.00 for 108 of them.They come in a mailable package.I don't think the price was special but you could inquire.

 G.Aman MK3 C Jabiru 2200a

   

  

    --

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

I would fly the airplane for a while w/o the vg's and get used to it. Then I would buy vg's instead of making them. I tried the home made aluminum ones and compared to store bought, you spend a lot of time to save some money, and the store bought look so much better, and are so much easier to do. No way would I make my own again. As far as different brands: no experience = no opinion.



Also, once you really know your airplane, when you put the vg's on, you will appreciate the difference. Analogy: Psalm 34:8.  If you don't try, you won't know.



So get to enjoy your Kolb and appreciate it for all it is, and then put the vg's on. Also gap seal the elevator to the stab, and put vg's on the forward underside of the horizontal stab. Then go get some altitude and do some stall tests w/wo flaps, w/wo power. Then do a bunch of slow flight about 5 mph above the stall, while cranking and banking.



http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/Vortex%20Generators.html

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/FSII%20Vortex%20Generators.html



Great cake is great. Great cake with good icing is better. 



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

HShack(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: Landshorter & Stolspeed VGs

Probably too thick.  I used .060".  Easy to form in a metal  brake.

  

  In a message dated 5/25/2011 4:15:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I have    tons of .90" & .125" Lexan sheet, and like I said, I have more time than    money.

	


 [quote][b]

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