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kitepilot(at)kitepilot.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:52 am Post subject: Trace Engines LP

And now that the controversy is flying...   

What'bout:

http://www.mistral-engines.com/ 



I would DROOL over a twincommander with those engines.

If they work...

ET 



PS: I DROOL over twincommanders period... 



 



 



BillLeff1(at)aol.com writes: 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Yes that was me!

  

 Bill leff

  

  

 In a message dated 4/8/2010 11:48:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  

 tylorhall(at)mac.com writes: 

 

 Bill,  

 I would hope it would keep running?

 

 Did I see a video of you landing on a road in Wi? 

 

 

 David,

 Thank you for joining our merry group.  You have a lot more detailed  

 information than I could relate.

 I have always enjoyed listening to Dick talk about the engine  development. 

  I know total weight was a big thing with make it all  work.

 The Thunder engine was just a start.  The Orinda took it to the next  step 

 that was Certified .   It appears that the Trace is a whole another  higher 

 level.  I do not know or totally understand all the changes, but  it sounds 

 like real progress.

 We love hearing about any new developments. 

 

 

 Bill, what would 750HP Trace do to your T-6?  Would it become a  T-7.5? 

 

  

 

 

  

 Tylor Hall 

 

  

 

  

 

 

 On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:29 PM, _BillLeff1(at)aol.com_ (mailto:BillLeff1(at)aol.com)  

 wrote: 

 

  

 

 Hey guys, I flew the first test flights of the Orenda 685, yea that is  me 

 in the video. I thought is was extremely smooth. There was a problem at  

 idle but I understand that was fixed. It was a problem in fuel  metering.  The 

 biggest problem on the first flight was it had too much  cooling!

  

 Best of luck to Trace Engines. Anything can stand improvement but, I  thing 

 they had a great engine to start with. By the way, my 600HP Pratt  & 

 Whiteny weighs 885 lbs. Think what a light weight Trace "Orenda" would  do on my 

 T-6!

  

 Bill Leff

  

  

 In a message dated 4/8/2010 1:50:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 

 _david(at)traceengines.com_ (mailto:david(at)traceengines.com)   writes: 

 

 

 (mailto:david(at)traceengines.com) > 

 

 I  have enjoyed reading you forum.  I have some input to add to clear up  

 some inaccuracies I have read.  This is not only from TRACEâ€™s point  of 

 view but as an engine guy as well.   

 

 1.)TRACE builds an FAA  fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine.  We 

 have a 750HP engine  that that is in validation testing with electronic fuel 

 injection and  ignition.  We are not really competing with X-Cat products, 

 though we  can build custom engines to the right application. 

 

 2.)Specs on the  685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be 

 found at _www.mrrpm.com_ (http://www.mrrpm.com/)    There is rate  of climb 

 and true air speed information that shows excellent performance.  I know 

 Dick very well and these are actual numbers. 

 

 3.) â€œProfound  vibration issuesâ€ are unfounded.  The engine has been 

 designed with  a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much as 

  possible.  The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing  

 order.  The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con  rods and 

 pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to  again minimize 

 any vibration. 

 

 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as  it effect propeller selection.  The 

 TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the  crank at full power, which translates into 

 2057rpm at the prop flange on  the reduction gearbox.  This allows large 

 range of propeller  usage.  The largest prop we use a 106â€ three bladed 

 McCauley.   

 

 5.)Weight on any system is of concern.  TRACE has several  programs in 

 development and weight is always a consideration along with  proper balance.  

 One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in  at 45lbs compared to a 

 standard prop at 120lbs.  Positioning of the  accessories is also crucial.  

 

 6.)Cylinder liners are not an  issue.  The key is the installation and 

 making sure the steel  cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all the 

 way.  TRACE has  a robust process that verifies that is done prior to final 

 deck height  machining.  The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid nitrogen and  

 installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a furnace.  The  sleeves 

 are then retained in position while they cool to prevent any  movement.  

 The end result is an interference fit that does not allow  movement.  These 

 liners can be bored to 0.010â€, 0.020â€ or  0.030â€ at overhauls if 

 required.  

 

 7.) â€œâ€¦it was never going to  be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming 

 or Continentalâ€¦â€  New  technology is never cheaper especially when it 

 is a vast improvement over  air cooled engines.  The performance isnâ€™t 

 even comparable with  TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same cubic 

 inch engine that  produces 750hp.  There are great advantages in new 

 technology such as  the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which are 

 serious  advancements in engineering specifically for aviation.  Essentially  you 

 get piston powered operating costs with turbine performance.  You  donâ€™t 

 get that with either Lycoming or Continental.  

 

 8.) A 350  Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft.  

 The  reasoning for this is simple.   The duty or load cycle of the  engine 

 is what drives how robust the engine design has to be.  A 350  Chevy 

 operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of  producing when 

 driving around town or the highway.  In aviation, an  engine typically runs 

 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and  corresponds directly to lead 

 generation for example.  The cooling  capability (volumetric flowrate) of a 

 typical 350 is tripled with the  TRACE engine.  The cooling scheme is  also 

 much different with  the coolant coming into each cylinder head and flowing 

 evenly through the  block, ultimately being pumped out at the center of the 

 engine on both  sides.  This cooling scheme on a TRACE engine is unique to 

 our engine  and the high output nature of aviation use.  It is a far superior  

 thermally balanced system that automotive use.  As I stated before,  TRACE 

 has an intensely tighter balance specification on all rotating  components 

 and unique firing order, so torsional vibration wonâ€™t be an  issue.  The 

 high loading on the engine also results in higher stress  on engine 

 components.  TRACE has six bolt main caps, where the best  automotive engines 

 typically has four bolt main caps.  Overall the  precision of machined components 

 for aviation use is also more tightly  tolerance and controlled which 

 produces a better overall system as a  whole.   Considering all of these factors itâ

 €™s not really a  surprise that all of this innovation and detail to 

 quality results in a  higher price than automotive engines when there is so much 

 more that goes  into a TRACE engine.  We wonâ€™t even mention the liability 

 insurance  related to aviation component and aviation production.

 I think I  covered most the issues brought up in these postings.  If you 

 have  any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or  

 interest you.  TRACE is interested in closing an STC for  Commanders.  I can be 

 reached at _david(at)traceengines.com_ (mailto:david(at)traceengines.com)  

 

 Thanks,  

 David Czarnecki

 Chief Operating Officer

 TRACE Engines,  L.P. 

 

  

 

 

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TRACE

Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 2
Location: Midland, TX

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Trace Engines LP

 	  Quote: 	
		  There is something that still doesn't click well, which is the firing order thing. The older V8's had a firing order of 1 5 4 8 6 3 7 2, which, if you look closely, fires on alternate banks except 8 and 6. If, and that's the gray area which you may be able to fill in, firing 6 and 8 successively on the same bank is the culprit causing torsional vibration, how did Trace solve the problem without creating a new crank with different crank (throw) angles, which would involve new counterweight technology, and perhaps cause a whole host of other problems? 



Wouldn't a dynamic coupler, like Diamond is using with the new Mercedes diesels, fitted between the crank and the reduction box have been a more effective solution? Or is the new firing order also causing a longer TBO? 	




To address this question, I sat down with my Director of Engineering.  First if you look at the engines from the same perspective our firing order would be 1-8-7-5-4-3-6-2.  That isn't hugely significant in itself.  What is is the degrees apart of firing on the same journal. An old Chevy for example fires 270 degrees apart on the same journal.  The TRACE fires at 90 degrees on the same journal, which dampens out torsionals. That is the case for 3 of the four journals, which is the best you are going to get no matter what.  We have found you can get more vibration from the prop than the engine.  That is why every pairing of engine and prop has vibe surveys done before installation into an aircraft.  



Thanks, 



David Czarnecki

Chief Operating Officer

TRACE Engines L.P.

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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: Trace Engines LP

Thank you for the trouble you took to explain that, David.  



It's interesting that the cylinders firing successively on the same bank

doesn't appear to be that big of a problem, then. The TRACE FO seems to hit

the banks LRRRLLRL, which appears to lack the rhythm of regular V8's such as

LRLLRLRR or LRLRRLRL, where you have a RL splitting the LL and the RR; and a

LR splitting them on the other side or vice versa.



Oh, well, I wouldn't know for sure. 



Perhaps I am misunderstanding the "at 90 degrees on the same journal"

statement. Does that mean the V-angle was changed and/or the crank was

changed from cross-plane to flat-plane? Wouldn't the latter be lighter? I'd

love to pack that into a simulator and see how a journal would be able to

fire at 90 degrees hanging two cylinders off of it at an angle. My gut-feel,

which is nothing to go by, would suggest that it would be almost a boxer

(HO) engine. 



Thanks



Nico





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