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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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 Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:44 am Post subject: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
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Mark,
I made the original parts called out for .016 and in handling them, I
found finger indents along the edges I handled. The material is
probably damaged anywhere it will be in contact with tools, people that
lean on the aircraft and especially at points of entry and exit.
.016 is light and fine for the undersides of a plane, but I'd not use it
where bugs hit, hands rest, tools or people lean on it to look it over.
As far as loosing 30 lbs of fat; I used the fruit diet where you eat
nothing but fruit midnight to noon. Then you can eat anything you want
the other
12 hours. For me it was a small package of cookies at 12:15 and a
regular sandwich and evening meal. I never snack late at night, but this
diet works
well because you have a lot of energy all day, never slog down because
of the diet. It's good for 2 to 4 lbs a week.
I also run 2 miles each morning to have a good metabolic rate that keeps
everything going at my tender 70 years.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Do not archive
Mark Sherman wrote:
| Quote: |
<n752ms(at)softcom.net>
Larry.
You say the .016 is to frail, what facts do you base this on?
Mark S.
>
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n752ms(at)softcom.net
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| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
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Robert.
This is accomplished by rolling the material up before you move it.
I have completed my build, all by my self and the aircraft is flying. I had two dings from handling and spent about an hour fixing them before painting. That time is spent and gone. Not much of an investment. You will be hauling around the thirty extra pounds for the rest of the life of the airplane. That is quite an expense, (just in fuel costs) with no facts to show it was necessary.
The quote that Larry made is "the .016" is to frail for the job" not that it is to frail to handle.
So, I would like to know the facts as to why it is to "frail" for the job of skins on a 701. The history of the aircraft does not support the statement. Show me the aircraft that had the skins replaced because of material failure or because of oil canning fatigue, under normal operations.
Mark S.
Do not archive
[quote] ---
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vgstol(at)bigpond.net.au
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| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
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Very well said, JB! For all builders who hope for good STOL performance from their 701, the best thing you could do is print that out and post it in your workshop, and read it and heed it every day......
JG
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 11:37 PM, John Bolding <jnbolding1(at)teleshare.net (jnbolding1(at)teleshare.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "John Bolding" <jnbolding1(at)teleshare.net (jnbolding1(at)teleshare.net)>
In looking back after messing around with these little airplanes for almost 40 yrs I can say with conviction that the most important aspect of building an airplane you can enjoy to the fullest extent is KEEP IT LIGHT.
I've also discovered that first time builders are more commonly guilty of this sin than someone who understands the ramifications of building a lead sled.
I have been blessed to have met and personally know(n) several of the well known designers of small aircraft , Van (I built an EARLY RV) CG Taylor (yep, THAT one), Dave Thurston, John Thorp, Dave Blanton, Bob Barrows and EVERY ONE of them would beat it into your head to not add unnecessary weight. Thorp wrote an article for Sport Aviation in the 70's I think about adding a multifunction stick grip (1#) to the top of the stick in a T18 and he chased that ONE pound all thru the structure showing how it affected performance and how other things were influenced by it.
Boeing and Airbus would send you a BIG pile of $$ if you could tell them how to save 30# on one of their aircraft, giving up that much weight on a 1100# plane is foolish. (I'm being generous with the word foolish)
I've got a buddy that just finished a Glasair TD, he has constant speed prop, LOTS of filler and paint, heavier engine, 80 gals worth of tanks, autopilot, Garmin 530 and every instrument known to man , radio stack that would do justice to a
Gulfstream V, leather upholstery.... you get the picture. Would you believe his airplane is 280# heavier than mine, our s/n's are 14 apart. Can't wait to outrun/outclimb/fly slower on less fuel in an aircraft that has 30 less hp. than he has.
Add ONLY Lightness.
John
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jpspencer(at)cableone.net
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:57 am Post subject: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
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My 701/912s/VG weighs 579# empty with strut cuffs and other cleanup fairings...it's a heckuva good performer; the takeoff and climbout when solo and light on gas is shocking. I can't imagine compromising any of that performance to the least degree especially for subbing 020 for 016. There isn't any reliability issue associated with the 016 skin that I'm aware of, the oil canning is a non issue...you get used to it and it tells you when it's not coordinated, and there was no difficulty handling the sheets by myself while building. Just clamp a 1x4 along the edge and pick it up and move it. Mine has a TXP, Encoder, Comm, GPS, paint and light simple upholstery...the only other things I allowed myself were the cleanup fairings that more than paid for their weight in reduced drag(or I would have removed them). It cruises 97 mph at 5000 rpm down low with the Warp Drive set at a thin 11 degrees. I don't think you'll find any of the heavy ones that will do that...not if the performance has been accurately measured.
Once it's built so it'll stay together weight is everything else...well nearly so. 30# for thicker skin is huge and pointless
Joe
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challgren(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:55 am Post subject: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
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Joe:
I did not use a 1 X 4 which is a great idea but did find near the end of the building process that rolling up the .016 skin each time it was taken off the aircraft made the process go a lot easier. After rolling it up I used bungee cords to keep it rolled up. The result was no more smilies and a lot fewer bad words.
I like your reported 579# and 97 mph cruise with VG's. My estimate for N701VG on weight and cruise is about the same with the VG's.
Stan
701/3300
On Mar 2, 2010, at 11:55 , Joe Spencer wrote:
| Quote: | My 701/912s/VG weighs 579# empty with strut cuffs and other cleanup fairings...it's a heckuva good performer; the takeoff and climbout when solo and light on gas is shocking. I can't imagine compromising any of that performance to the least degree especially for subbing 020 for 016. There isn't any reliability issue associated with the 016 skin that I'm aware of, the oil canning is a non issue...you get used to it and it tells you when it's not coordinated, and there was no difficulty handling the sheets by myself while building. Just clamp a 1x4 along the edge and pick it up and move it. Mine has a TXP, Encoder, Comm, GPS, paint and light simple upholstery...the only other things I allowed myself were the cleanup fairings that more than paid for their weight in reduced drag(or I would have removed them). It cruises 97 mph at 5000 rpm down low with the Warp Drive set at a thin 11 degrees. I don't think you'll find any of the heavy ones that will do that...not if the performance has been accurately measured.
Once it's built so it'll stay together weight is everything else...well nearly so. 30# for thicker skin is huge and pointless
Joe
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