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occom
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404
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 Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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Can anyone see any reason why I can not or should not keep all the wiring from the rectifier / regulator on the engine side of the firewall.
I want to remove these wires currently penetrating the firewall and have the positive side go to the battery side of the starter through a weather tight fuse and the ground side go to the battery ground on the engine.
This arrangement will leave the regulator attached to the battery full time, but fused. I'm aiming for simple here folks.
[quote][b]
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occom
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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Got a private reply that didn't help. Yes folks I meant the battery side of the starter relay, not the starter.
[quote] ---
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Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:23 pm Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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On Sat, March 7, 2009 11:19 am, Dave G wrote:
| Quote: | This arrangement will leave the regulator attached to the battery full time, but
fused. I'm aiming for simple here folks.
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You really would benefit posting this to the aeroelectric list.
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3>
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office |
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occom
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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I have read the book, and have used some of what Mr Nicholls has to say. I
have no interest in redundant buses and backup such and such. I'm not after
building an IFR aircraft. Think of it more as how little wiring can I exist
with in a modern world.
---
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occom
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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Sorry, my reply looks a little harsh in retrospect. The folks on the
Aerolectric list do tend to get a little carried away with themselves at
times. Simple doesna;t get a lot of airtime over there from what I've seen.
I do appreciate the response though.
---
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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Dave,
I understand the frustration with the aeroelectrics list. Bob used to be an
active participant of the Kitfox list and I was talked into a lot of his
stuff on my first Kitfox - example, the essential buss - and frankly never
hooked it up as I never attached the load on the charge circuit needed to
prevent frying the regulator if I were to disconnect it from the battery. A
constant load in an already stretched amp capacity concerned me.
I flew for 900 hours looking at that useless switch on my panel, explaining
it to the curious and wishing I had never put it there. Now I have the
opportunity to do it simple. I don't think in our airplanes there is only
one right way.
The only consideration I can think of with your suggested set-up is heat -
how much is too much. There is a heat sink on the regulator. In the engine
compartment, will it absorb more than it radiates.
Lowell
---
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:04 am Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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Sounds like a good idea but..
What are you going to use for power for your panel? Where are you putting your battery.
If you already have a forward CG then maybe you will want to have your battery further back.
I’m not sure I’s like to see my regulator/rectifier connected at the starter lug as it is only hot when the starter is operating and the reverse current can be amazing when the starter is released. Much better to connect your rectifier via a breaker to the main buss.... The same true for the battery so to get a charge you must have both the battery breaker and the master breaker on.
Having the rectifier regulator outside the firewall is a good idea. Try to make sure it’s in a good cool airflow to help the fins cool the unit.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 3:49 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Can anyone see any reason why I can not or should not keep all the wiring from the rectifier / regulator on the engine side of the firewall.
I want to remove these wires currently penetrating the firewall and have the positive side go to the battery side of the starter through a weather tight fuse and the ground side go to the battery ground on the engine.
This arrangement will leave the regulator attached to the battery full time, but fused. I'm aiming for simple here folks.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:51 am Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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Ok. Wiring to the battery side of the starter solenoid doesn’t allow you to cut power from the alternator to the main buss without also cutting the power from the battery. The power being generated and rectified is less than 16A DC (at) 13.8V. Hardly heavy current carrying wire. Doing the wiring the way you suggested only allows a none or all wiring approach. Having a 16ga wire feeding the buss through a breaker then allows you to run either from the battery or the alternator.
BTW I recommend that you have a master relay as close to the battery as possible to protect the heavy starter wire. If not a relay than at least a fused link capable of carrying the starter current.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:59 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Got a private reply that didn't help. Yes folks I meant the battery side of the starter relay, not the starter.
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave G (occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca)
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Can anyone see any reason why I can not or should not keep all the wiring from the rectifier / regulator on the engine side of the firewall.
I want to remove these wires currently penetrating the firewall and have the positive side go to the battery side of the starter through a weather tight fuse and the ground side go to the battery ground on the engine.
This arrangement will leave the regulator attached to the battery full time, but fused. I'm aiming for simple here folks.
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c |
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0123456789 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com |
0 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com |
1 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com |
2 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com |
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[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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occom
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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You must have missed the followup. Yes, I meant the battery side of the starter relay.
Ignoring the W/B issues as this aircraft has seen a lot of airtime
I want to get rid of hot wires behind the dashboard when the Master is discoonected. The battery is located right over my feet and the starter relay is sitting on the engine side of the firewall directly opposite the battery. Two inches away is the REG/RECT. I simply want to remove all the wire that went from the REG/RECT along the back of the dash to a panel fuse and then back to the battery as it was energized all the time and brought about 24" of live unfused wire to the panel.
I would like clarification on your statement about a breaker on the REG/RECT lead. ROTAX's own wiring diagrams do not show this and many UL wiring diagrams do not. See http://www.ultralightnews.com/engineinfo/images/264-870wiringdiagram.jpg I know that some Certified aircraft have a ALT disconnect.
The power for the panel is not an issue, my biggest concern is if I want to remove the LORAN the Strobes. I am extremely envious of an aquantance who wired a RANS with about eight feet of wire. VERY VERY simple. Mine will be more complex as I more engine instruments and fuel gauges but I think he has the right idea.
---
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occom
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:22 am Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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See now there's the issue. I should be fine with a none or all approach. If I lose every single powered device on the panel I'm still fine to fly day VFR until I can land and fix the problem. Which would be much easier the simpler the system is.
If I was flying a high alt passage through multiple control zones at night in IFR conditions I'd need all that. But I wouldn't be flying a Kitfox.
[quote] ---
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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Best thing is to put a relay right on the outside of the battery box that will disconnect the B+ from the battery when the master is off. The energizer line for the relay can be as small as 22 ga and be protected by a fuse at the battery B+ terminal. So much for the hot wires when the master is off.
The idea of having a breaker on the charging system is twofold. First if that breaker pops then you probably have way too much load on your buss so it’s a little past time to start to turn a few things off. Secondly if you suspect that the charging system is not working then your regulator circuit may pull a Benjamin Arnold on you and actually help flatten your battery in flight. A switch to disconnect the regulator from the circuit in that situation is worth its weight in gold. When the engine isn’t running that wire is totally cold.
This diagram shows two ways of doing the same thing but I prefer the second method as everything is cold when the master and gen are pulled. In the first diagram it is not possible to operate an electrics with a flat battery as you cannot isolate the battery from the gen.
The relay in the second diagram is a min 60A unit often used in RVs. It is important not to use a starter solenoid as they are only designed for momentary use. Notice I didn’t show a breaker or fuse on the energizer line for the relay.... my plane has a fuse.
[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C9A011.AFE246A0[/img]
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:40 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Rectifier to battery connection question.
You must have missed the followup. Yes, I meant the battery side of the starter relay.
Ignoring the W/B issues as this aircraft has seen a lot of airtime
I want to get rid of hot wires behind the dashboard when the Master is discoonected. The battery is located right over my feet and the starter relay is sitting on the engine side of the firewall directly opposite the battery. Two inches away is the REG/RECT. I simply want to remove all the wire that went from the REG/RECT along the back of the dash to a panel fuse and then back to the battery as it was energized all the time and brought about 24" of live unfused wire to the panel.
I would like clarification on your statement about a breaker on the REG/RECT lead. ROTAX's own wiring diagrams do not show this and many UL wiring diagrams do not. See http://www.ultralightnews.com/engineinfo/images/264-870wiringdiagram.jpg I know that some Certified aircraft have a ALT disconnect.
The power for the panel is not an issue, my biggest concern is if I want to remove the LORAN the Strobes. I am extremely envious of an aquantance who wired a RANS with about eight feet of wire. VERY VERY simple. Mine will be more complex as I more engine instruments and fuel gauges but I think he has the right idea.
----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Loveys
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 11:03 AM
Subject: RE: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Sounds like a good idea but..
What are you going to use for power for your panel? Where are you putting your battery.
If you already have a forward CG then maybe you will want to have your battery further back.
I’m not sure I’s like to see my regulator/rectifier connected at the starter lug as it is only hot when the starter is operating and the reverse current can be amazing when the starter is released. Much better to connect your rectifier via a breaker to the main buss.... The same true for the battery so to get a charge you must have both the battery breaker and the master breaker on.
Having the rectifier regulator outside the firewall is a good idea. Try to make sure it’s in a good cool airflow to help the fins cool the unit.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
0123456789
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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I agree if your radio has a separate battery. Yes I know you can fly NORDO I’ve been in planes where it has been done but... Do you really want to do it?
Daytime VFR only
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:52 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Rectifier to battery connection question.
See now there's the issue. I should be fine with a none or all approach. If I lose every single powered device on the panel I'm still fine to fly day VFR until I can land and fix the problem. Which would be much easier the simpler the system is.
If I was flying a high alt passage through multiple control zones at night in IFR conditions I'd need all that. But I wouldn't be flying a Kitfox.
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Loveys (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Ok. Wiring to the battery side of the starter solenoid doesn’t allow you to cut power from the alternator to the main buss without also cutting the power from the battery. The power being generated and rectified is less than 16A DC (at) 13.8V. Hardly heavy current carrying wire. Doing the wiring the way you suggested only allows a none or all wiring approach. Having a 16ga wire feeding the buss through a breaker then allows you to run either from the battery or the alternator.
BTW I recommend that you have a master relay as close to the battery as possible to protect the heavy starter wire. If not a relay than at least a fused link capable of carrying the starter current.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:59 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Got a private reply that didn't help. Yes folks I meant the battery side of the starter relay, not the starter.
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave G (occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca)
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Can anyone see any reason why I can not or should not keep all the wiring from the rectifier / regulator on the engine side of the firewall.
I want to remove these wires currently penetrating the firewall and have the positive side go to the battery side of the starter through a weather tight fuse and the ground side go to the battery ground on the engine.
This arrangement will leave the regulator attached to the battery full time, but fused. I'm aiming for simple here folks.
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[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:47 pm Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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Noel C Did you mean Benedict Arnold? Or Benjamin Franklin on that battery hook up?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Date: Sun C 8 Mar 2009 17:21:50 -0230
.ExternalClass p.EC_MsoNormal C .ExternalClass li.EC_MsoNormal C .ExternalClass div.EC_MsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman' C'serif';} .ExternalClass a:link C .ExternalClass span.EC_MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited C .ExternalClass span.EC_MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass pre {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Courier New';} .ExternalClass span.EC_HTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas;} .ExternalClass span.EC_EmailStyle19 {font-family:'Times New Roman' C'serif';color:windowtext;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;} .ExternalClass span.EC_EmailStyle20 {font-family:'Times New Roman' C'serif';color:windowtext;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;} .ExternalClass .EC_MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} (at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass div.EC_Section1 {page:Section1;}
I agree if your radio has a separate battery. Yes I know you can fly NORDO I’ve been in planes where it has been done but... Do you really want to do it?
Daytime VFR only
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G
Sent: Sunday C March 08 C 2009 1:52 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question.
See now there's the issue. I should be fine with a none or all approach. If I lose every single powered device on the panel I'm still fine to fly day VFR until I can land and fix the problem. Which would be much easier the simpler the system is.
If I was flying a high alt passage through multiple control zones at night in IFR conditions I'd need all that. But I wouldn't be flying a Kitfox.
[quote]
---
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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At 12:19 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | | This arrangement will leave the regulator attached to the battery full time, but fused. I'm aiming for simple here folks. |
My question is whether the fuse will blow with an over-voltage condition. Fuses normally only care about amperage. If your regulator decides to go over-voltage, (the way mine did,) I can see you causing problems for any electronics receiving that voltage.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting [quote][b]
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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: Rectifier to battery connection question. |
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Benedict Arnold... gee I wish I could say I was into the run again but alas it was just a brain ####.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 6:16 PM
To: kitfox matronics
Subject: RE: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Noel, Did you mean Benedict Arnold? Or Benjamin Franklin on that battery hook up?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:21:50 -0230
I agree if your radio has a separate battery. Yes I know you can fly NORDO I’ve been in planes where it has been done but... Do you really want to do it?
Daytime VFR only
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:52 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Rectifier to battery connection question.
See now there's the issue. I should be fine with a none or all approach. If I lose every single powered device on the panel I'm still fine to fly day VFR until I can land and fix the problem. Which would be much easier the simpler the system is.
If I was flying a high alt passage through multiple control zones at night in IFR conditions I'd need all that. But I wouldn't be flying a Kitfox.
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----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Loveys (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Ok. Wiring to the battery side of the starter solenoid doesn’t allow you to cut power from the alternator to the main buss without also cutting the power from the battery. The power being generated and rectified is less than 16A DC (at) 13.8V. Hardly heavy current carrying wire. Doing the wiring the way you suggested only allows a none or all wiring approach. Having a 16ga wire feeding the buss through a breaker then allows you to run either from the battery or the alternator.
BTW I recommend that you have a master relay as close to the battery as possible to protect the heavy starter wire. If not a relay than at least a fused link capable of carrying the starter current.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:59 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Got a private reply that didn't help. Yes folks I meant the battery side of the starter relay, not the starter.
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----- Original Message -----
From: Dave G (occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca)
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question.
Can anyone see any reason why I can not or should not keep all the wiring from the rectifier / regulator on the engine side of the firewall.
I want to remove these wires currently penetrating the firewall and have the positive side go to the battery side of the starter through a weather tight fuse and the ground side go to the battery ground on the engine.
This arrangement will leave the regulator attached to the battery full time, but fused. I'm aiming for simple here folks.
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[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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