Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Cold weather starting

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Cold weather starting
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: Cold weather starting

I never try to start my 912 when temps are under  30 F. I'm sure I know the problem, When I take the air cleaner off and cup the  opening of the carb it fires rt up. I have a sticky choke cable. I guess a  couple quick squirts of the start fluid is easy and I don't have to remove the  air cleaner. My hangar is not heated, It also doesn't have electricity so cold  starting is my only option. I will get the choke cable replaced soon.   

 Steve Bennett  4/1200 912ul North Carolina.

  

  In a message dated 12/11/2008 9:40:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        

His advice sounds more than    reasonable...  The very worst thing you can do to an engine is start    it.  That being true, when you do start it  you want to make the    start as smooth and easy as possible.  Itâ€™s easy to remove metal form the    inside of your engine... neigh on impossible to put it    back!   

    

    

   

    

Noel    Loveys   

Campbellton, NL,    Canada   

CDN AME intern,    PP-Rec   

C-FINB, Kitfox    III-A   

912 almost    installed   

Aerocet 1100    floats   

noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca   

    

    

          

From:    owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy    Daughenbaugh

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:41    PM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Kitfox-List:    Cold weather starting 



   

    

At our    local EAA chapter (37) meeting last night a local A&P said we really need    to heat everything â€“ not just heads or oil or cylinders but EVERYTHING! â€“ when    we fire up the engine in cold weather.  He singled out the Rotax 900    series engines because of their very tight fit compared to Continentals or    Lycomings.  He said that even if you turn the engine over by hand at 10 F    or lower temps, you will be scraping some metal off and starting the end of    the engine.     

    

I have    never worried about this.  If it is not windy, I fly without regard to    the temperatures.  Am I destroying my 912S by starting it cold?       

    

Randy     - flew yesterday in teens and low 20â€™s F â€“ over Mount    Rushmore   

    

Series    5/7 912S Warpdrive taper tip 	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7 	  Quote: 	
		   	
8 	  Quote: 	
		   	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  	
2

	




Make your life easier with all your friendstin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.

image001.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

7.29 KB

Viewed:

6650 Time(s)

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: Cold weather starting

<snip>

Light bulbs are too dangerous, IMHO, and too hard to manipulate from the  

bottom of the cowl.



Lynn Matteson



You ain't just whistling Dixie to that!



Noel

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: Cold weather starting

Yea Dick, and I've been thinking of getting skis so I can land on the sand  at White Sands National Monument.

  

 Pete

 Hell Paso, TX

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: Cold weather starting

You guys are killing me! I gotta go hang a prop on my plane in a 14°  

hangar....and those are real degrees...F's, not those wimpy-ass C  

things. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 11, 2008, at 11:41 AM, Pete Christensen wrote:



[quote] Yea Dick, and I've been thinking of getting skis so I can land on  

 the sand at White Sands National Monument.



 Pete

 Hell Paso, TX

 do not archive

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

icubob(at)newnorth.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: cold weather starting

so many ways to preheat. here is an angle i am  looking into. devices are available that will turn on an electric appliance with  a call to a landline phone. safe aviation preheat systems are available. fleet  farm also carries 150 watt oil pan heaters similiar to the aviation stuff. use  your imagination on this............ a phone call to your hangar turns on your  preheat or a call turns it off. life would be perfect if a unit worked with a  cell phone!

                              bob noffs

                                           

    [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: cold weather starting

....and a wrong number call to your hangar in the middle of the  

night, cutting off your warming and thus delays your attempt at a new  

worlds record for...(insert your own dream)



(this must be the silly season) please do not archive



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 11, 2008, at 1:28 PM, bob noffs wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   so many ways to preheat. here is an angle i am looking into.  

 devices are available that will turn on an electric appliance with  

 a call to a landline phone. safe aviation preheat systems are  

 available. fleet farm also carries 150 watt oil pan heaters  

 similiar to the aviation stuff. use your imagination on  

 this............ a phone call to your hangar turns on your preheat  

 or a call turns it off. life would be perfect if a unit worked with  

 a cell phone!

                             bob noffs



 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: Cold weather starting

That's what it was called!

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

11/12/2008 10:13 PM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Cold weather starting 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 Sounds like flashing material for roof work.

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

 system;

 also building a new pair of snow skis

 do not archive

 On Dec 11, 2008, at 3:55 AM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:

 >

 > I made my own Jim from some scrap aluminum - basically I made two x  

 > 4" tubes and riveted them to an aluminum enclosure which I just  

 > taped to the heater using aluminum duct tape.

 >

 > I used that really light aluminum that you buy in a roll from  

 > hardware stores

 >

 > Gary

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Cold weather starting

Lynn C The guy lives in NC. He thinks cold is 50 degrees F C and skis were invented to use on water.

  

 do not archive

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL 



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Re: Cold weather starting

 Date: Thu C 11 Dec 2008 06:43:30 -0500

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 Ok C Steve C bend over....I would think that starting fluid just gets 

 the engine started C without giving any warmth to the oil and the rest 

 of the engine. I'm sure that even the most greedy of the engine 

 dealers...no names C please...would suggest that you warm the engine 

 to allow for free oil flow and less scraping/friction/damage when it 

 does start. I'm thinking that if you NEED starting fluid C something 

 isn't right...too much friction C too much drag on the starter C 

 bringing the battery down C cold fuel C etc.

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger

 Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 593hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition 

 system;

 also building a new pair of snow skis

 

 

 

 

 On Dec 10 C 2008 C at 9:52 PM C Sbennett3(at)aol.com wrote:

 

 > My engine heater is a can of start fluid on those cold mornings... 

 > (30 to 35f) I've been spanked on this group before so have at it. 

 > Steve Bennett NC USA 4/1200 912ul

 >

 > In a message dated 12/10/2008 9:40:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time C 

 > patreilly43(at)hotmail.com writes:

 > Lynn C What is an "enclosure heater"?

 >

 >

 > Pat Reilly

 > Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 > Rockford C IL

 >

 &gt=====================

 _=======

 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

I have a Reiff pre-heat system on my engine as well, but prefer the

el-cheapo space heater system. It simply heats the entire engine and engine

compartment to a nice cozy temp quite easily. 



Jeff



 	  icubob(at)newnorth.net wrote: 	
		  so many ways to preheat. here is an angle i am  looking into. devices are available that will turn on an electric appliance with  a call to a landline phone. safe aviation preheat systems are available. fleet  farm also carries 150 watt oil pan heaters similiar to the aviation stuff. use  your imagination on this............ a phone call to your hangar turns on your  preheat or a call turns it off. life would be perfect if a unit worked with a  cell phone!

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Cold weather starting

Good 'un, Pat! (sorry 'bout that, Steve) : )



Now to keep it educational, here is a shot of my enclosure heater.  

The only part that gets shoved up the.....I mean inserted into the  

lower cowl, is the metal and fiberglass tape, not the wood. I had  

just removed it from the engine and it was hot, so I laid it on he  

wood. When I got there today, the oil temp was 104° F, and the heads  

were 64° F.  By the way, the exposed electrical studs never get near  

anything metallic...I should insulate them somehow, but haven't  

really looked into what I could use...maybe more of the fiberglass  

tape. Or at least get pretty and put terminals on those bare wires.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 595+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

On Dec 11, 2008, at 4:27 PM, patrick reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, The guy lives in NC. He thinks cold is 50 degrees F, and skis  

 were invented to use on water.



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

100_4765.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

396.63 KB

Viewed:

442 Time(s)

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: Cold weather starting

Hey Guys C Another good book is "Mavericks of the Sky". It is about the inception of U.S. Airmail.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Patrick.Best(at)telus.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Thu C 11 Dec 2008 10:13:59 -0500

 Subject: RE: Cold weather starting 

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Patrick Best <Patrick.Best(at)telus.com>

 

 I would like to recommend using a Blow-Pot C like the northern bush-pilot pioneers!

 

 For those of you who don't know what that is....

 

 When a pilot was done flying for the day during the winter in northern Canada C the "flight engineer's" responsibility was to drain the oil from the engine into a large metal bucket and bring it indoors over night. The next morning C in temperatures as low as -60 F (yes C that's a real temp) C the engineer would shroud the engine C light the kersone blow-pot stove and heat the oil in the buckets for a couple of hours. Then it would be poured back into the engine for the flight.

 

 

 I read it in this FASCINATING book. I would completely recommend it. It's about 1930's era Junkers with skis. Crashes and flying without reliable maps. Good pictures too.

 

 The site says it's out of print C but there's probably many copies around still.

 

 http://www.harbourpublishing.com/title/BentPropsBlowPots

 

 

 

&gt=======================
	


&g=====

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: Cold weather starting

Lynn C Thanks for the picture. I have a 582 greyhead watercooled and have installed a block heater in the hose below the pump inlet. Don't know how it will work yet. It is simple and cheap enough to try anyway.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Re: Cold weather starting

 Date: Thu C 11 Dec 2008 17:04:32 -0500

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 Good 'un C Pat! (sorry 'bout that C Steve) : )

 

 Now to keep it educational C here is a shot of my enclosure heater. 

 The only part that gets shoved up the.....I mean inserted into the 

 lower cowl C is the metal and fiberglass tape C not the wood. I had 

 just removed it from the engine and it was hot C so I laid it on he 

 wood. When I got there today C the oil temp was 104° F C and the heads 

 were 64° F. By the way C the exposed electrical studs never get near 

 anything metallic...I should insulate them somehow C but haven't 

 really looked into what I could use...maybe more of the fiberglass 

 tape. Or at least get pretty and put terminals on those bare wires.

 


	


  [quote][b]

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: Cold weather starting

Pat, I didn't say 50 is cold...  plus I have a heater in  my plane.  40 is pushing it a bit...  Oh ya, and I know about the  water ski thing, but how about them go carts they put skis on the front  of...  Now that's innovation... Steve (no need for skis) Bennett  NC  guy...

  

  In a message dated 12/11/2008 4:29:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  patreilly43(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Lynn,    The guy lives in NC. He thinks cold is 50 degrees F, and skis were invented to    use on water.

 

do not archive

 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582    Rebuild

Rockford, IL 



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

    Subject: Re: Cold weather starting

 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008    06:43:30 -0500

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

    

 Ok, Steve, bend over....I would think that starting fluid just gets    

 the engine started, without giving any warmth to the oil and the rest    

 of the engine. I'm sure that even the most greedy of the engine    

 dealers...no names, please...would suggest that you warm the engine    

 to allow for free oil flow and less scraping/friction/damage when it    

 does start. I'm thinking that if you NEED starting fluid, something    

 isn't right...too much friction, too much drag on the starter,    

 bringing the battery down, cold fuel, etc.

 

 Lynn    Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062,    593hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild, and new    Electroair direct-fire ignition 

 system;

 also building a new    pair of snow skis

 

 

 

 

 On Dec 10, 2008,    at 9:52 PM, Sbennett3(at)aol.com wrote:

 

 > My engine heater is    a can of start fluid on those cold mornings... 

 > (30 to 35f) I've    been spanked on this group before so have at it. 

 > Steve Bennett    NC USA 4/1200 912ul

 >

 > In a message dated 12/10/2008    9:40:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 

 > patreilly43(at)hotmail.com    writes:

 > Lynn, What is an "enclosure heater"?

 >

    >

 > Pat Reilly

 > Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 >    Rockford, IL

 >

 >=====================

    _=======

 

 

 


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  



://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

	
	




Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in ony&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.

  [quote][b]

icubob(at)newnorth.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: cold weather starting

hi lynn,

 i may be wrong but i would assume you key in some numbers to activate the 

device, the same as you do to get your answering machine to play your 

messages. i live about 45 minutes from the airport and at least warm oil 

when i get there would be good for engine life. i do have a red dragon 

propane preheater that worked fine on a lyc. but i know it didnt do much for 

the oil temp.

   one way or another i am leaning toward an electric preheat system for 

next year.

                                           bob noffs

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: cold weather starting

Oh yeah, like an extension number that (probably) no one else would  

know about. Yeah, Bob, that makes perfect sense now. I live 4 miles  

from my hangar, and I leave my heater on all the time, because I fly  

a lot and I want it ready to go when the weather allows for it. I  

think that cycling on and off leads to condensation buildup. My  

system warms the whole engine and even the cowl (under the blanket),  

so condensation cannot collect...at least so far that's been the  

case. I haven't figured what it costs to run (200 watts x 5 hours=1  

kilowatt hour=how much per KW hour? dunno) but this times 5 would be  

about one day's run cost. If I could find my electric bill, I could  

figure what I'm costing my hangar landlord, and maybe back off on the  

24x7 usage of the heater.



I haven't tried any tests to determine if cycling the heater actually  

causes condensation to appear, but maybe a 4 hr cycle would retain  

enough heat between cycles to avoid moisture. If I had a recording  

humidity gauge (gotta be a fancier word for that, but it's too late  

at night for me to think clearly), maybe I could determine if this  

was feasible.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 595+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 11, 2008, at 7:34 PM, bob noffs wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 hi lynn,

 i may be wrong but i would assume you key in some numbers to  

 activate the device, the same as you do to get your answering  

 machine to play your messages. i live about 45 minutes from the  

 airport and at least warm oil when i get there would be good for  

 engine life. i do have a red dragon propane preheater that worked  

 fine on a lyc. but i know it didnt do much for the oil temp.

   one way or another i am leaning toward an electric preheat system  

 for next year.

                                           bob noffs

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Cold weather starting

Steve:



Remind me not to by one of your used engines..



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: cold weather starting

What you propose is no problem.  Simply have a computer answer the phone on

the third ring ... enter a four , five  or six digit DTMF code form your

phone and your heater is turned on or off.  You can use this set up to

unlock doors and turn off and on lights.  The answer sounds like and in fact

is an answering machine so it will take messages for you too.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: cold weather starting

And that solution would take care of the telemarketer problem, too, I  

would think.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 595+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 11, 2008, at 11:23 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 What you propose is no problem.  Simply have a computer answer the  

 phone on

 the third ring ... enter a four , five  or six digit DTMF code form  

 your

 phone and your heater is turned on or off.  You can use this set up to

 unlock doors and turn off and on lights.  The answer sounds like  

 and in fact

 is an answering machine so it will take messages for you too.



 Noel



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: Cold weather starting

If you guys really want some fun just try to start an old Bell 47-G below

50F... Then when you get it going you have to keep the rpm up because there

is no flywheel...  once the engine is nicely warmed up then you have to

engage the rotors without flooding, not only the engine but the closest

three counties..



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

icubob(at)newnorth.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: cold weather starting

lynn,

  a little more research on the condensation  business seems to point to an engine that was run for only a short time and  didnt get to operating temps before it was shut down. this leaves water in the  engine as a product of combustion that didnt get a chance to be boiled off. now  comes the constant preheat that puts the moisture that was in the oil in vapor  form and then it condenses on the colder parts of the engine. i dont know if all  this is true but keeping a preheat on an engine that was put away hot should not  be a problem.

                   bob noffs

    [quote][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 2 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum