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MJKTuck(at)cs.com
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 Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Filling Tips |
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Hi Folks,
Reading all the recent advice on filling the flying surfaces I wanted to
mention a method I used which seems to have been overlooked. It saves
having to 'slap on' filler only to sand it back off again and provides a
nice even thickness with which to start the sanding.
The method is to use a pair of fishing lines (I think I used 100 lb
breaking strain but it was about 0.020" dia.). Use weights at either end
to drap them over the surface and space them about 10 inches apart like
a couple of tram lines. Slap on the filler (and if it turns out shiny
you need more filler in the mix) between the tramlines and then using a
wide spackle knife or straight edge run it along the tram lines to
spread the filler. You should end up with a 0.020' thickness of filler.
Lift up one line and place it 10 inches from the other and continue the
process all the way down the surface being filled.
Now when you lift up the lines you will be left with a line of no filler
when the fishing line was but a quick run over with the spackle knife
you can force just enough down to fill the gap.
For sanding, I started with 60 grit and worked my way down to 100 then 160.
Avoid adding more filler on top of previously cured filler as you will
make it difficult to get an even surface presumably because of
variations in hardness of the filler mix.
Brings back happy memories! 
Martin Tuck
Europa N152MT
Wichita, Kansas
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tonywickens(at)btconnect.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:05 am Post subject: Filling Tips |
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Hi All
I am filling at the moment, just to make all of you that have been through
it envious! I have tried the fishing line method but found that second and
third applications were necessary to deal with low areas. Of course, hot
wiring rules apply in terms of Burt Rutan's 'talking numbers'. That is the
spline has to be non flexible and the angle has to be kept parallel to the
line of the curvature.
Brian Davies came around and said that he used the lay it on thick and sand
it back once method and I have found that this works better for me. The only
issue with blocking back, apart from avoiding cutting into the fiber glass
is not to put too much heat into the component.
Getting the mixture dry enough (using expancel) I have also found difficult.
I will try the system described in Jim and Heather Butcher's recent e-mail,
particularly working it on a board with a spreader and the smear of resin
should help the interface adhesion. It is worth a try
The trouble is that by the time you are getting proficient the job is
finished. My respect grows for all you Classic builders and I am careful not
to winge on about filling and rubbing down in their company
Thanks for all the useful and interesting inputs
Tony Wickens
XS Kit 353
Martin Tuck wrote>
| Quote: | The method is to use a pair of fishing lines (I think I used 100 lb
breaking strain but it was about 0.020" dia.). Use weights at either end
to drap them over the surface and space them about 10 inches apart like a
couple of tram lines. Slap on the filler (and if it turns out shiny you
need more filler in the mix) between the tramlines and then using a wide
spackle knife or straight edge run it along the tram lines to spread the
filler. You should end up with a 0.020' thickness of filler. Lift up one
line and place it 10 inches from the other and continue the process all
the way down the surface being filled.
Now when you lift up the lines you will be left with a line of no filler
when the fishing line was but a quick run over with the spackle knife you
can force just enough down to fill the gap.
For sanding, I started with 60 grit and worked my way down to 100 then
160.
Avoid adding more filler on top of previously cured filler as you will
make it difficult to get an even surface presumably because of variations
in hardness of the filler mix.
Brings back happy memories!
Martin Tuck
Europa N152MT
Wichita, Kansas
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:34 am Post subject: Filling Tips |
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Tony, I found the fishing line method worked well for me, although I used
multiple lines at roughly 8in spacing. Also the smear of neat resin to wet
the cloth before applying the filler helped. Then the critical factor is
getting the consistency of the filler just right, not so wet that it ran and
not so dry that it wouldn't spread nicely.
Best of luck, David Joyce
---
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christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: Filling Tips |
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Hi Tony:
I am a Classic builder about to complete this part of the building.
What I found most helpful:
KEEP IT as SIMPLE and effective as possible, especially if you have a Classic.
Invest into the best tools and components, use them right and you get excellent results:
- Lightweight epoxy filler is readily available (SuperFill or Aeropoxy Light)
- Put it on once and sufficiently thick and then block it down to the proper profile the first time. Very little needs to be re-filled the second time because it is in this multiple later fillings where you are going to spend a lot of your time. This stuff is very easy to work with and I find both products easy to sand back with excellent predictability.
-Use the highest quality professional grade sanding paper (no-fill grade). You get this only at auto body shop suppliers, NOT the local home hardware store. Everything else scratches your hard won smoothness at every step up.
-Use a large sandpaper sheet size block with the sheet attached with carpet tape works well.
-Do not be tempted to use machine help until you really have experience and know what you are doing. Character is built through hand work...
-The filling step can be one of the most expensive if you consider giving your bird to a professional auto body shop to bring it up to their professional pre-painting standards. I was quoted a full week of work at $40/hour= $1,600 just for that step alone. You will not believe how much of the actual fuselage will actually need filling to come out looking good especially if you have an older non-clear coated fuselage (mine). So, the 4-6 gallons of filler are well spent investment.
-Consider doing the UV protection and priming yourself, with your own hands and a roller in hand: UV Smooth Prime allows this without all the bad toxicity so you can do it at home in your own garage. A gallon will do most of the airplane. You need to sand it back to professional grade but remember, they charge you $40/hr for this, so you can really save money here. Around wind shields consider the pro job doing a final pass with Epoxy primer. it sticks better to the acrylic.
-Finally save some of the saved money at the final step where it really counts: painting is an acquired skill. Unless you feel confident doing it yourself and dealing with the requirements of dealing with toxic paints, let a professional painter do the final prep and final coat. They use those toxic materials every day and will reward all your work with a professional finish which would take you many airplanes to achieve.
- Have a professional doing it all for you can cost you over $10,000. Doing the important parts yourself will cut this in half, or less.
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Tony Wickens
Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 6:03 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Filling Tips
Hi All
I am filling at the moment, just to make all of you that have been through
it envious! I have tried the fishing line method but found that second and
third applications were necessary to deal with low areas. Of course, hot
wiring rules apply in terms of Burt Rutan's 'talking numbers'. That is the
spline has to be non flexible and the angle has to be kept parallel to the
line of the curvature.
Brian Davies came around and said that he used the lay it on thick and sand
it back once method and I have found that this works better for me. The only
issue with blocking back, apart from avoiding cutting into the fiber glass
is not to put too much heat into the component.
Getting the mixture dry enough (using expancel) I have also found difficult.
I will try the system described in Jim and Heather Butcher's recent e-mail,
particularly working it on a board with a spreader and the smear of resin
should help the interface adhesion. It is worth a try
The trouble is that by the time you are getting proficient the job is
finished. My respect grows for all you Classic builders and I am careful not
to winge on about filling and rubbing down in their company
Thanks for all the useful and interesting inputs
Tony Wickens
XS Kit 353
Martin Tuck wrote>
| Quote: | The method is to use a pair of fishing lines (I think I used 100 lb
breaking strain but it was about 0.020" dia.). Use weights at either end
to drap them over the surface and space them about 10 inches apart like a
couple of tram lines. Slap on the filler (and if it turns out shiny you
need more filler in the mix) between the tramlines and then using a wide
spackle knife or straight edge run it along the tram lines to spread the
filler. You should end up with a 0.020' thickness of filler. Lift up one
line and place it 10 inches from the other and continue the process all
the way down the surface being filled.
Now when you lift up the lines you will be left with a line of no filler
when the fishing line was but a quick run over with the spackle knife you
can force just enough down to fill the gap.
For sanding, I started with 60 grit and worked my way down to 100 then
160.
Avoid adding more filler on top of previously cured filler as you will
make it difficult to get an even surface presumably because of variations
in hardness of the filler mix.
Brings back happy memories!
Martin Tuck
Europa N152MT
Wichita, Kansas
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: Filling Tips |
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Tony
If you add aspoonfull of colloidal silica to the mix, I used it 6:1 by
volume with Expancell, you will get about 30% more expancell in to the
same resin. Start the mix in a large pot, then transfer onto a
board,(plasterers hawk) and work it hard with the scraper.
Try strimmer line 4 " tramlines and a stiff scraper. After you've done a
few of feet of wing go back and flatten the tram lines. The cabosil
makes the filler flow nicely too.
Graham
Tony Wickens wrote:
| Quote: |
<tonywickens(at)btconnect.com>
Hi All
I am filling at the moment, just to make all of you that have been
through it envious! I have tried the fishing line method but found
that second and third applications were necessary to deal with low areas.
Getting the mixture dry enough (using expancel) I have also found
difficult. I will try the system described in Jim and Heather
Butcher's recent e-mail, particularly working it on a board with a
spreader and the smear of resin should help the interface adhesion.
|
| Quote: |
Tony Wickens
XS Kit 353
Martin Tuck wrote>
> The method is to use a pair of fishing lines (I think I used 100 lb
> breaking strain but it was about 0.020" dia.). Use weights at either
> end to drap them over the surface and space them about 10 inches
> apart like a couple of tram lines. Slap on the filler (and if it
> turns out shiny you need more filler in the mix) between the
> tramlines and then using a wide spackle knife or straight edge run it
> along the tram lines to spread the filler. You should end up with a
> 0.020' thickness of filler. Lift up one line and place it 10 inches
> from the other and continue the process all the way down the surface
> being filled.
>
> Now when you lift up the lines you will be left with a line of no
> filler when the fishing line was but a quick run over with the
> spackle knife you can force just enough down to fill the gap.
>
> For sanding, I started with 60 grit and worked my way down to 100
> then 160.
>
> Avoid adding more filler on top of previously cured filler as you
> will make it difficult to get an even surface presumably because of
> variations in hardness of the filler mix.
>
> Brings back happy memories!
>
> Martin Tuck
> Europa N152MT
> Wichita, Kansas
>
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: Filling Tips |
|
|
Christoph,
Thanks for your input, I am taking your thoughts to heart.
Ralph
RKHallett III
XS MG
Christoph Both wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Tony:
I am a Classic builder about to complete this part of the building.
What I found most helpful:
KEEP IT as SIMPLE and effective as possible, especially if you have a Classic.
Invest into the best tools and components, use them right and you get excellent results:
- Lightweight epoxy filler is readily available (SuperFill or Aeropoxy Light)
- Put it on once and sufficiently thick and then block it down to the proper profile the first time. Very little needs to be re-filled the second time because it is in this multiple later fillings where you are going to spend a lot of your time. This stuff is very easy to work with and I find both products easy to sand back with excellent predictability.
-Use the highest quality professional grade sanding paper (no-fill grade). You get this only at auto body shop suppliers, NOT the local home hardware store. Everything else scratches your hard won smoothness at every step up.
-Use a large sandpaper sheet size block with the sheet attached with carpet tape works well.
-Do not be tempted to use machine help until you really have experience and know what you are doing. Character is built through hand work...
-The filling step can be one of the most expensive if you consider giving your bird to a professional auto body shop to bring it up to their professional pre-painting standards. I was quoted a full week of work at $40/hour= $1,600 just for that step alone. You will not believe how much of the actual fuselage will actually need filling to come out looking good especially if you have an older non-clear coated fuselage (mine). So, the 4-6 gallons of filler are well spent investment.
-Consider doing the UV protection and priming yourself, with your own hands and a roller in hand: UV Smooth Prime allows this without all the bad toxicity so you can do it at home in your own garage. A gallon will do most of the airplane. You need to sand it back to professional grade but remember, they charge you $40/hr for this, so you can really save money here. Around wind shields consider the pro job doing a final pass with Epoxy primer. it sticks better to the acrylic.
-Finally save some of the saved money at the final step where it really counts: painting is an acquired skill. Unless you feel confident doing it yourself and dealing with the requirements of dealing with toxic paints, let a professional painter do the final prep and final coat. They use those toxic materials every day and will reward all your work with a professional finish which would take you many airplanes to achieve.
- Have a professional doing it all for you can cost you over $10,000. Doing the important parts yourself will cut this in half, or less.
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Tony Wickens
Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 6:03 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Filling Tips
Hi All
I am filling at the moment, just to make all of you that have been through
it envious! I have tried the fishing line method but found that second and
third applications were necessary to deal with low areas. Of course, hot
wiring rules apply in terms of Burt Rutan's 'talking numbers'. That is the
spline has to be non flexible and the angle has to be kept parallel to the
line of the curvature.
Brian Davies came around and said that he used the lay it on thick and sand
it back once method and I have found that this works better for me. The only
issue with blocking back, apart from avoiding cutting into the fiber glass
is not to put too much heat into the component.
Getting the mixture dry enough (using expancel) I have also found difficult.
I will try the system described in Jim and Heather Butcher's recent e-mail,
particularly working it on a board with a spreader and the smear of resin
should help the interface adhesion. It is worth a try
The trouble is that by the time you are getting proficient the job is
finished. My respect grows for all you Classic builders and I am careful not
to winge on about filling and rubbing down in their company
Thanks for all the useful and interesting inputs
Tony Wickens
XS Kit 353
Martin Tuck wrote>
> The method is to use a pair of fishing lines (I think I used 100 lb
> breaking strain but it was about 0.020" dia.). Use weights at either end
> to drap them over the surface and space them about 10 inches apart like a
> couple of tram lines. Slap on the filler (and if it turns out shiny you
> need more filler in the mix) between the tramlines and then using a wide
> spackle knife or straight edge run it along the tram lines to spread the
> filler. You should end up with a 0.020' thickness of filler. Lift up one
> line and place it 10 inches from the other and continue the process all
> the way down the surface being filled.
>
> Now when you lift up the lines you will be left with a line of no filler
> when the fishing line was but a quick run over with the spackle knife you
> can force just enough down to fill the gap.
>
> For sanding, I started with 60 grit and worked my way down to 100 then
> 160.
>
> Avoid adding more filler on top of previously cured filler as you will
> make it difficult to get an even surface presumably because of variations
> in hardness of the filler mix.
>
> Brings back happy memories!
>
> Martin Tuck
> Europa N152MT
> Wichita, Kansas
>
>
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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