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Weld-on 10 & crazing
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msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

42



Do not archive



--

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

http://www.lpaero.com/documentation.html



Michael



--

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

64 scary...



I don't know the new ones.....I was a 316, little missiles and then went to BIG missiles.....but our age shows by the AFSC's we remember.....



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080



--

pcasson(at)sasktel.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Vern, 



I had the same problem when I installed my windshield.  Decided it was going

to be far easier to replace the windshield right away and risk having

problems after fairing and paint and glad I did.  When I started knocking

the bad windshield out it cracked quite readily from those crazed areas.

Based on talks with a buddy of mine who's blown several of bubble canopies

we suspect the "problem" windshields are being blown at a slightly lower

temperature or are being allowed to cool faster after blowing.



Perry Casson

C-FMHP

chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

I've used rubbing alcohol on an RV9A (three years  old) and my almost finished RV10.  Haven't had a problem yet.

 Chuck

 [quote]   ---

planesmith(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

I did get an answer from the tech group at IPS the makers of Weld-On10 about possible repairs. They don't recommend using Weld-On 3 ( a capillary action cement) for surface cracks/crazing as it can make the cracks worse. Only other idea they had was try removing the cracks mechanically with something like Micro-Mesh or leave them alone.

  

 So there you have the options:

  

  1. Leave them alone

  2. Try buffing them out

  3. Replace the window

  

 Again I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts and encouragement.  

  

 vern 





   

 > Date: Fri C 12 Sep 2008 08:57:15 -0600

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: pcasson(at)sasktel.net

 Subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Perry Casson <pcasson(at)sasktel.net>

 

 Vern C 

 

 I had the same problem when I installed my windshield. Decided it was going

 to be far easier to replace the windshield right away and risk having

 problems after fairing and paint and glad I did. When I started knocking

 the bad windshield out it cracked quite readily from those crazed areas.

 Based on talks with a buddy of mine who's blown several of bubble canopies

 we suspect the "problem" windshields are being blown at a slightly lower

 temperature or are being allowed to cool faster after blowing.

 

 Perry Casson

 C-FMHP 

 


	


Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now  [quote][b]

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

I'd be exceptionally cautious about using this site as a guide for  

what to put on my windshield:

 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.ridoutplastics.com/plexiglas-chemical-resistance.html

For example, they rate ammonium hydroxide as "excellent".
	


John

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Not sure exactly what type of "plastic" our windows are made of, but  

 the list at the link below gives the effects of using various  

 solvents/substances on acrylic plexiglass and I figure ours is  

 pretty close.  It's a pretty inclusive list, and I used it as a  

 guide for figuring out what substances to avoid (anything with an  

 "N" in both columns).  Isopropyl alcohol is not so good.  Ethyl  

 alcohol is better if you can find it without any additives.

 http://www.ridoutplastics.com/plexiglas-chemical-resistance.html

pascal(at)rv10builder.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Sorry to hear of your crazing Vern.

 I appreciate this thread and the responses on what to do  and not do to install the windows without crazing or other issues it will serve  me well when I go to do them myself.

 Thanks all for the insight!

 Pascal

  



  From: Vernon Smith (planesmith(at)hotmail.com) 

 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 11:47 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: RE: Weld-on 10 & crazing

 



I did get an answer from the tech group at IPS the makers of  Weld-On10 about possible repairs. They don't recommend using Weld-On 3 ( a  capillary action cement) for surface cracks/crazing as it can make the cracks  worse. Only other idea they had was try removing the cracks mechanically with  something like Micro-Mesh or leave them alone.

 

So there you have  the options:

 

 1. Leave them alone

 2. Try buffing them  out

 3. Replace the window

 

Again I would like to thank  everyone for their thoughts and  encouragement.  

 

vern 





  

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:57:15 -0600

 From:  pcasson(at)sasktel.net

 Subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

  To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by:  Perry Casson <pcasson(at)sasktel.net>

 

 Vern, 

  

 I had the same problem when I installed my windshield. Decided it was  going

 to be far easier to replace the windshield right away and risk  having

 problems after fairing and paint and glad I did. When I started  knocking

 the bad windshield out it cracked quite readily from those  crazed areas.

 Based on talks with a buddy of mine who's blown several of  bubble canopies

 we suspect the "problem" windshields are being blown at  a slightly lower

 temperature or are being allowed to cool faster after  blowing.

 

 Perry Casson

 C-FMHP 

 


	




  Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. [url=http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_getmore_092008]Learn Now[/url] [quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Sounds like good info Mike, thanks for posting.



Dave Leikam

RV-10 #40496

N89DA (Reserved)

Muskego, WI



---

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Ah, a fellow Hitchhiker....

 	  msausen wrote: 	
		  42



Do not archive



--

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

Peter.James(at)sprint.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Hello fellow -10r’s,  

   

I think there has been way too much made of gluing in windows, crazing, alternative glues, etc.  I was scared to death to do mine after all the posts.  It was a learning process, but didn’t go nearly as bad as I expected …..  So here is what I did – take it or leave it:    

   

True:  Weld-on is some of the gooiest stuff I have ever worked with…worse than pro-seal.  The big problem is that it likes to ‘string’…and it gets everywhere…just like pro-seal, it can jump 10 feet    

   

Put the window where you want it.   Drill holes and cleco and fender washer the window in place.  This does NOT put a lot of pressure on the window.  It DOES allow the window to spring out to the exact shape of the canopy.  This is a GOOD thing.  

   

Draw a line with one of your kids Crayola washable markers (fine line) on the inside.   

   

Take the window out.  Use Black electrical tape to seal the window up to the Crayola marker line.  Get the seal nice and smooth and nice and tight to the line.  

   

Then come back over the electrical tape with BLUE tape.  It doesn’t have to get right to the edge of the electrical tape, but pretty close.  I might even consider a second layer of blue tape.  Do the same thing on the outside of the window…right out to the edge.  IMPORTANT:  Also blue tape a couple of layers on the outside of the fuselage around the window well.  This will be important to keep the Weld-on off the fuselage as you glue the windows in.  YES – blue tape is expensive – but don’t scrimp here.  Get a 2 or 3” wide band of tape around the wells.  

   

Sand the inside flange with sandpaper – clean with ISOPROPYL alcohol from the DRUG STORE – get the purest stuff they have.  Remember not to leave it open as I it will absorb moisture from the air.  I’m not sure that it matters in this case, but I like the stuff to be as potent as possible for future uses.  

   

To glue in the window have 2 buddies over to help!  One will be inside the plane, the other on the outside.  

   

Smear the mixed Weld-on 10 on the flange.  Mine was somewhat runny…. It will try and run on you.  MOVE FAST!!!  Mine set in FAR less than the 20 minute pot-life it is supposed to have.  

   

Gently set the window in place.  DO NOT PRESS IT IN!  If you do, the glue will squeeze out when you press in, the window will then ‘spring’ back to the cleco and fender washers – leaving a big air pocket where the glue squeezed out.  Some of this is just plain going to happen.  I will talk about that later.  Have Buddy number 2 start clecoing and fender washering the window.  Hit the four corners, and a few other places, then grab pliers, clecos, and washers and get them in.  Don’t delay.  You want time to clean up and work with this stuff before it sets.  

   

The glue is going to be a mess!  Have blue shop towels and a couple of plastic resin spreaders handy.  I took a couple spreaders to my band saw and cut a couple of varying widths..  These are plastic and won’t scratch the window.  The also are stiff enough to scrape the excess glue off.  Buddy number 1 will be inside, scraping any excess off as it squeezes out.  If you don’t have someone inside, this stuff will drip on you fuselage interior and won’t be easy to clean up or sand off later.  

   

If you did a good job of taping, you will be scraping the extra glue off the BLUE TAPE – inside and out.  Keep in mind, on the outside, you will have to scrape around the clecos and fender washers.  Get the bulk off quickly.  

   

Next – again, moving very fast – pull the first layer of blue tape off.  This will get the bulk of extra glue off and away from the plane.  Have a big waste basket or paper bag nearby…because just like pro-seal – this stuff can jump 10 feet and get on anything and everything.  On the outside of the plane, you will have your extra buddy pull a cleco – you pull the tape past the hole, then have him put the cleco right back in.  It should now be setting on the second layer of tape, or the electrical tape.  

   

Go all the way around the windows, cleaning, peeling a layer of tape, cleaning, peeling a layer of tape.  By the time you are done, the glue will be VERY solid.  It won’t be impossible to get off, but it won’t be easy.  I then used a metal square tip knife, to get the final remnants off the window on the inside and outside of the fuselage.  

   

By using clecos and fender washers, the clamp force is regulated or eliminated if the window has sprung up to ‘meet’ the fender washer.  I did not get ANY crazing at all…not even one place.  My result was not perfect.  I learned the lesson of pushing the window in too far, having it spring back, and leave a big air pocket the hard way on the first window.  I later came back with a tiny drill….used a light and drilled two holes, then used a syringe with no needle to fill the sir pockets with weld-on.  (I have extra weld-on since I had some that had expired and I ordered fresh for the main process.)  

   

The cleco holes are now filled with epoxy and the high strength West Systems Adhesive filler.  You will never know that there was a hole there.  

   

My results are not perfect, but they are not bad.  The real key is to move fast.  We did this on a warm summer evening…and the Weld-on went to set in a real hurry.  

   

These are my experiences – you can use them – laugh at them – or ignore them.  I just know that it worked pretty well for my building team.  I’d be happy to answer any questions as this one of the most intimidating steps in the whole kit.  

Pete  #40100 – plan to have it Osh next year.  

   

      [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Congrats on your success.  Looking forward to seeing it at OSH '09.  

   

John Cox  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James, Peter [SD]

 Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:59 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing  

  

  

   

Hello fellow -10r’s,  

   

I think there has been way too much made of gluing in windows, crazing, alternative glues, etc.  I was scared to death to do mine after all the posts.  It was a learning process, but didn’t go nearly as bad as I expected …..  So here is what I did – take it or leave it:    

   

True:  Weld-on is some of the gooiest stuff I have ever worked with…worse than pro-seal.  The big problem is that it likes to ‘string’…and it gets everywhere…just like pro-seal, it can jump 10 feet    

   

Put the window where you want it.   Drill holes and cleco and fender washer the window in place.  This does NOT put a lot of pressure on the window.  It DOES allow the window to spring out to the exact shape of the canopy.  This is a GOOD thing.  

   

Draw a line with one of your kids Crayola washable markers (fine line) on the inside.   

   

Take the window out.  Use Black electrical tape to seal the window up to the Crayola marker line.  Get the seal nice and smooth and nice and tight to the line.  

   

Then come back over the electrical tape with BLUE tape.  It doesn’t have to get right to the edge of the electrical tape, but pretty close.  I might even consider a second layer of blue tape.  Do the same thing on the outside of the window…right out to the edge.  IMPORTANT:  Also blue tape a couple of layers on the outside of the fuselage around the window well.  This will be important to keep the Weld-on off the fuselage as you glue the windows in.  YES – blue tape is expensive – but don’t scrimp here.  Get a 2 or 3” wide band of tape around the wells.  

   

Sand the inside flange with sandpaper – clean with ISOPROPYL alcohol from the DRUG STORE – get the purest stuff they have.  Remember not to leave it open as I it will absorb moisture from the air.  I’m not sure that it matters in this case, but I like the stuff to be as potent as possible for future uses.  

   

To glue in the window have 2 buddies over to help!  One will be inside the plane, the other on the outside.  

   

Smear the mixed Weld-on 10 on the flange.  Mine was somewhat runny…. It will try and run on you.  MOVE FAST!!!  Mine set in FAR less than the 20 minute pot-life it is supposed to have.  

   

Gently set the window in place.  DO NOT PRESS IT IN!  If you do, the glue will squeeze out when you press in, the window will then ‘spring’ back to the cleco and fender washers – leaving a big air pocket where the glue squeezed out.  Some of this is just plain going to happen.  I will talk about that later.  Have Buddy number 2 start clecoing and fender washering the window.  Hit the four corners, and a few other places, then grab pliers, clecos, and washers and get them in.  Don’t delay.  You want time to clean up and work with this stuff before it sets.  

   

The glue is going to be a mess!  Have blue shop towels and a couple of plastic resin spreaders handy.  I took a couple spreaders to my band saw and cut a couple of varying widths..  These are plastic and won’t scratch the window.  The also are stiff enough to scrape the excess glue off.  Buddy number 1 will be inside, scraping any excess off as it squeezes out.  If you don’t have someone inside, this stuff will drip on you fuselage interior and won’t be easy to clean up or sand off later.  

   

If you did a good job of taping, you will be scraping the extra glue off the BLUE TAPE – inside and out.  Keep in mind, on the outside, you will have to scrape around the clecos and fender washers.  Get the bulk off quickly.  

   

Next – again, moving very fast – pull the first layer of blue tape off.  This will get the bulk of extra glue off and away from the plane.  Have a big waste basket or paper bag nearby…because just like pro-seal – this stuff can jump 10 feet and get on anything and everything.  On the outside of the plane, you will have your extra buddy pull a cleco – you pull the tape past the hole, then have him put the cleco right back in.  It should now be setting on the second layer of tape, or the electrical tape.  

   

Go all the way around the windows, cleaning, peeling a layer of tape, cleaning, peeling a layer of tape.  By the time you are done, the glue will be VERY solid.  It won’t be impossible to get off, but it won’t be easy.  I then used a metal square tip knife, to get the final remnants off the window on the inside and outside of the fuselage.  

   

By using clecos and fender washers, the clamp force is regulated or eliminated if the window has sprung up to ‘meet’ the fender washer.  I did not get ANY crazing at all…not even one place.  My result was not perfect.  I learned the lesson of pushing the window in too far, having it spring back, and leave a big air pocket the hard way on the first window.  I later came back with a tiny drill….used a light and drilled two holes, then used a syringe with no needle to fill the sir pockets with weld-on.  (I have extra weld-on since I had some that had expired and I ordered fresh for the main process.)  

   

The cleco holes are now filled with epoxy and the high strength West Systems Adhesive filler.  You will never know that there was a hole there.  

   

My results are not perfect, but they are not bad.  The real key is to move fast.  We did this on a warm summer evening…and the Weld-on went to set in a real hurry.  

   

These are my experiences – you can use them – laugh at them – or ignore them.  I just know that it worked pretty well for my building team.  I’d be happy to answer any questions as this one of the most intimidating steps in the whole kit.  

Pete  #40100 – plan to have it Osh next year.  

   [quote]  [/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List[/b]http://forums.matronics.com[/b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution [b]

DLIUDVINAITIS(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

HEY PETE,

      SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAD VERY GOOD EXIPERENCE, MAY BE  YOU CAN LET US KNOW WHAT CLEANER OR PREPING YOU USED BEFORE INSTALLING YOUR  WINDOWS? I'M REAL CLOSE TO INSTALLING MY WINDOWS.  THANKS

  

  

 DAVE LUDD

 NJ #40466

  

  

  

  In a message dated 9/14/2008 11:04:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  Peter.James(at)sprint.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        

Hello fellow    -10râ€™s,   

    

I think there has been way too    much made of gluing in windows, crazing, alternative glues, etc.  I was    scared to death to do mine after all the posts.  It was a learning    process, but didnâ€™t go nearly as bad as I expected â€¦..  So here is what I    did â€“ take it or leave it:     

    

True:  Weld-on is some of the    gooiest stuff I have ever worked withâ€¦worse than pro-seal.  The big    problem is that it likes to â€˜stringâ€™â€¦and it gets everywhereâ€¦just like    pro-seal, it can jump 10 feet     

    

Put the window where you want    it.   Drill holes and cleco and fender washer the window in    place.  This does NOT put a lot of pressure on the window.  It DOES    allow the window to spring out to the exact shape of the canopy.  This is    a GOOD thing.   

    

Draw a line with one of your kids    Crayola washable markers (fine line) on the inside.       

    

Take the window out.  Use    Black electrical tape to seal the window up to the Crayola marker line.     Get the seal nice and smooth and nice and tight to the    line.   

    

Then come back over the electrical    tape with BLUE tape.  It doesnâ€™t have to get right to the edge of the    electrical tape, but pretty close.  I might even consider a second layer    of blue tape.  Do the same thing on the outside of the windowâ€¦right out    to the edge.  IMPORTANT:  Also blue tape a couple of layers on the    outside of the fuselage around the window well.  This will be important    to keep the Weld-on off the fuselage as you glue the windows in.  YES â€“    blue tape is expensive â€“ but donâ€™t scrimp here.  Get a 2 or 3â€ wide band    of tape around the wells.   

    

Sand the inside flange with    sandpaper â€“ clean with ISOPROPYL alcohol from the DRUG STORE â€“ get the purest    stuff they have.  Remember not to leave it open as I it will absorb    moisture from the air.  Iâ€™m not sure that it matters in this case, but I    like the stuff to be as potent as possible for future    uses.   

    

To glue in the window have 2    buddies over to help!  One will be inside the plane, the other on the    outside.   

    

Smear the mixed Weld-on 10 on the    flange.  Mine was somewhat runnyâ€¦. It will try and run on you.  MOVE    FAST!!!  Mine set in FAR less than the 20 minute pot-life it is supposed    to have.   

    

Gently set the window in    place.  DO NOT PRESS IT IN!  If you do, the glue will squeeze out    when you press in, the window will then â€˜springâ€™ back to the cleco and fender    washers â€“ leaving a big air pocket where the glue squeezed out.  Some of    this is just plain going to happen.  I will talk about that later.     Have Buddy number 2 start clecoing and fender washering the window.  Hit    the four corners, and a few other places, then grab pliers, clecos, and    washers and get them in.  Donâ€™t delay.  You want time to clean up    and work with this stuff before it sets.   

    

The glue is going to be a    mess!  Have blue shop towels and a couple of plastic resin spreaders    handy.  I took a couple spreaders to my band saw and cut a couple of    varying widths..  These are plastic and wonâ€™t scratch the window.     The also are stiff enough to scrape the excess glue off.  Buddy number 1    will be inside, scraping any excess off as it squeezes out.  If you donâ€™t    have someone inside, this stuff will drip on you fuselage interior and wonâ€™t    be easy to clean up or sand off later.   

    

If you did a good job of taping,    you will be scraping the extra glue off the BLUE TAPE â€“ inside and out.     Keep in mind, on the outside, you will have to scrape around the clecos and    fender washers.  Get the bulk off quickly.   

    

Next â€“ again, moving very fast â€“    pull the first layer of blue tape off.  This will get the bulk of extra    glue off and away from the plane.  Have a big waste basket or paper bag    nearbyâ€¦because just like pro-seal â€“ this stuff can jump 10 feet and get on    anything and everything.  On the outside of the plane, you will have your    extra buddy pull a cleco â€“ you pull the tape past the hole, then have him put    the cleco right back in.  It should now be setting on the second layer of    tape, or the electrical tape.   

    

Go all the way around the windows,    cleaning, peeling a layer of tape, cleaning, peeling a layer of tape.  By    the time you are done, the glue will be VERY solid.  It wonâ€™t be    impossible to get off, but it wonâ€™t be easy.  I then used a metal square    tip knife, to get the final remnants off the window on the inside and outside    of the fuselage.   

    

By using clecos and fender    washers, the clamp force is regulated or eliminated if the window has sprung    up to â€˜meetâ€™ the fender washer.  I did not get ANY crazing at allâ€¦not    even one place.  My result was not perfect.  I learned the lesson of    pushing the window in too far, having it spring back, and leave a big air    pocket the hard way on the first window.  I later came back with a tiny    drillâ€¦.used a light and drilled two holes, then used a syringe with no needle    to fill the sir pockets with weld-on.  (I have extra weld-on since I had    some that had expired and I ordered fresh for the main    process.)   

    

The cleco holes are now filled    with epoxy and the high strength West Systems Adhesive filler.  You will    never know that there was a hole there.   

    

My results are not perfect, but    they are not bad.  The real key is to move fast.  We did this on a    warm summer eveningâ€¦and the Weld-on went to set in a real    hurry.   

    

These are my experiences â€“ you can    use them â€“ laugh at them â€“ or ignore them.  I just know that it worked    pretty well for my building team.  Iâ€™d be happy to answer any questions    as this one of the most intimidating steps in the whole    kit.   

Pete  #40100 â€“    plan to have it Osh next year.   

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

  [quote][b]

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

IMHO you do not want to clean your windows prior to install.  Leave the protective film on all but the working edge and prep only the working edge.  If you clean the whole window you risk contaminating the edge with things that reduce the adhesion.  I would think this is true no matter if you use weld-on, epoxy sikaflex or what ever.  Most cleaners leave behind some residue, and I never wanted to chance that it would effect the bond.  

   

Gary Specketer  

40274 Flying  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DLIUDVINAITIS(at)aol.com

 Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 1:24 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing  

  

     

HEY PETE,  

    

     SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAD VERY GOOD EXIPERENCE, MAY BE YOU CAN LET US KNOW WHAT CLEANER OR PREPING YOU USED BEFORE INSTALLING YOUR WINDOWS? I'M REAL CLOSE TO INSTALLING MY WINDOWS.  THANKS  

    

   

    

   

    

DAVE LUDD  

    

NJ #40466  

    

   

    

   

    

   

      

In a message dated 9/14/2008 11:04:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time, Peter.James(at)sprint.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

Hello fellow -10r’s,  

   

I think there has been way too much made of gluing in windows, crazing, alternative glues, etc.  I was scared to death to do mine after all the posts.  It was a learning process, but didn’t go nearly as bad as I expected …..  So here is what I did – take it or leave it:    

   

True:  Weld-on is some of the gooiest stuff I have ever worked with…worse than pro-seal.  The big problem is that it likes to ‘string’…and it gets everywhere…just like pro-seal, it can jump 10 feet    

   

Put the window where you want it.   Drill holes and cleco and fender washer the window in place.  This does NOT put a lot of pressure on the window.  It DOES allow the window to spring out to the exact shape of the canopy.  This is a GOOD thing.  

   

Draw a line with one of your kids Crayola washable markers (fine line) on the inside.   

   

Take the window out.  Use Black electrical tape to seal the window up to the Crayola marker line.  Get the seal nice and smooth and nice and tight to the line.  

   

Then come back over the electrical tape with BLUE tape.  It doesn’t have to get right to the edge of the electrical tape, but pretty close.  I might even consider a second layer of blue tape.  Do the same thing on the outside of the window…right out to the edge.  IMPORTANT:  Also blue tape a couple of layers on the outside of the fuselage around the window well.  This will be important to keep the Weld-on off the fuselage as you glue the windows in.  YES – blue tape is expensive – but don’t scrimp here.  Get a 2 or 3” wide band of tape around the wells.  

   

Sand the inside flange with sandpaper – clean with ISOPROPYL alcohol from the DRUG STORE – get the purest stuff they have.  Remember not to leave it open as I it will absorb moisture from the air.  I’m not sure that it matters in this case, but I like the stuff to be as potent as possible for future uses.  

   

To glue in the window have 2 buddies over to help!  One will be inside the plane, the other on the outside.  

   

Smear the mixed Weld-on 10 on the flange.  Mine was somewhat runny…. It will try and run on you.  MOVE FAST!!!  Mine set in FAR less than the 20 minute pot-life it is supposed to have.  

   

Gently set the window in place.  DO NOT PRESS IT IN!  If you do, the glue will squeeze out when you press in, the window will then ‘spring’ back to the cleco and fender washers – leaving a big air pocket where the glue squeezed out.  Some of this is just plain going to happen.  I will talk about that later.  Have Buddy number 2 start clecoing and fender washering the window.  Hit the four corners, and a few other places, then grab pliers, clecos, and washers and get them in.  Don’t delay.  You want time to clean up and work with this stuff before it sets.  

   

The glue is going to be a mess!  Have blue shop towels and a couple of plastic resin spreaders handy.  I took a couple spreaders to my band saw and cut a couple of varying widths..  These are plastic and won’t scratch the window.  The also are stiff enough to scrape the excess glue off.  Buddy number 1 will be inside, scraping any excess off as it squeezes out.  If you don’t have someone inside, this stuff will drip on you fuselage interior and won’t be easy to clean up or sand off later.  

   

If you did a good job of taping, you will be scraping the extra glue off the BLUE TAPE – inside and out.  Keep in mind, on the outside, you will have to scrape around the clecos and fender washers.  Get the bulk off quickly.  

   

Next – again, moving very fast – pull the first layer of blue tape off.  This will get the bulk of extra glue off and away from the plane.  Have a big waste basket or paper bag nearby…because just like pro-seal – this stuff can jump 10 feet and get on anything and everything.  On the outside of the plane, you will have your extra buddy pull a cleco – you pull the tape past the hole, then have him put the cleco right back in.  It should now be setting on the second layer of tape, or the electrical tape.  

   

Go all the way around the windows, cleaning, peeling a layer of tape, cleaning, peeling a layer of tape.  By the time you are done, the glue will be VERY solid.  It won’t be impossible to get off, but it won’t be easy.  I then used a metal square tip knife, to get the final remnants off the window on the inside and outside of the fuselage.  

   

By using clecos and fender washers, the clamp force is regulated or eliminated if the window has sprung up to ‘meet’ the fender washer.  I did not get ANY crazing at all…not even one place.  My result was not perfect.  I learned the lesson of pushing the window in too far, having it spring back, and leave a big air pocket the hard way on the first window.  I later came back with a tiny drill….used a light and drilled two holes, then used a syringe with no needle to fill the sir pockets with weld-on.  (I have extra weld-on since I had some that had expired and I ordered fresh for the main process.)  

   

The cleco holes are now filled with epoxy and the high strength West Systems Adhesive filler.  You will never know that there was a hole there.  

   

My results are not perfect, but they are not bad.  The real key is to move fast.  We did this on a warm summer evening…and the Weld-on went to set in a real hurry.  

   

These are my experiences – you can use them – laugh at them – or ignore them.  I just know that it worked pretty well for my building team.  I’d be happy to answer any questions as this one of the most intimidating steps in the whole kit.  

Pete  #40100 – plan to have it Osh next year.  

   

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Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.  

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daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Could a product like this 

 http://www.intropc.com/item-25742-3m-auto-glass-urethane-windshield-adhesive-medium-viscosity-3m8693.html   

 be used to install the windows?  

  

 Dave Leikam

RV-10 #40496

N89DA  (Reserved)

Muskego, WI



 [quote]   ---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

That is an EXCELLENT write-up Peter.  The drilling holes thru the

windshield shouldn't be an issue they way you did it, and it is

another good way you can hold it all together.  Like Gary commented,

as far as cleaning before installing, I don't know that it's really

a big necessary thing...but even though I personally avoided IPA

for the wipe, I don't think a quick wipe of it would affect anything

either if it evaporates right away.  You're right though...the glue

is a pain mainly because it's quick-set and stringy, but it certainly

works fine for putting the windows in...and doing it how you did it

with helpers is a perfect way to go.  It's just great to have them

in and done!



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

James, Peter [SD] wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello fellow -10r’s,

 

  

 

 I think there has been way too much made of gluing in windows, crazing, 

 alternative glues, etc.  I was scared to death to do mine after all the 

 posts.  It was a learning process, but didn’t go nearly as bad as I 

 expected …..  So here is what I did – take it or leave it: 

 

  

 

 True:  Weld-on is some of the gooiest stuff I have ever worked 

 with…worse than pro-seal.  The big problem is that it likes to 

 ‘string’…and it gets everywhere…just like pro-seal, it can jump 10 feet 

 

  

 

 Put the window where you want it.   Drill holes and cleco and fender 

 washer the window in place.  This does NOT put a lot of pressure on the 

 window.  It DOES allow the window to spring out to the exact shape of 

 the canopy.  This is a GOOD thing.

 

  

 

 Draw a line with one of your kids Crayola washable markers (fine line) 

 on the inside.

 

  

 

 Take the window out.  Use Black electrical tape to seal the window up to 

 the Crayola marker line.  Get the seal nice and smooth and nice and 

 tight to the line.

 

  

 

 Then come back over the electrical tape with BLUE tape.  It doesn’t have 

 to get right to the edge of the electrical tape, but pretty close.  I 

 might even consider a second layer of blue tape.  Do the same thing on 

 the outside of the window…right out to the edge.  IMPORTANT:  Also blue 

 tape a couple of layers on the outside of the fuselage around the window 

 well.  This will be important to keep the Weld-on off the fuselage as 

 you glue the windows in.  YES – blue tape is expensive – but don’t 

 scrimp here.  Get a 2 or 3” wide band of tape around the wells.

 

  

 

 Sand the inside flange with sandpaper – clean with ISOPROPYL alcohol 

 from the DRUG STORE – get the purest stuff they have.  Remember not to 

 leave it open as I it will absorb moisture from the air.  I’m not sure 

 that it matters in this case, but I like the stuff to be as potent as 

 possible for future uses.

 

  

 

 To glue in the window have 2 buddies over to help!  One will be inside 

 the plane, the other on the outside.

 

  

 

 Smear the mixed Weld-on 10 on the flange.  Mine was somewhat runny…. It 

 will try and run on you.  MOVE FAST!!!  Mine set in FAR less than the 20 

 minute pot-life it is supposed to have.

 

  

 

 Gently set the window in place.  DO NOT PRESS IT IN!  If you do, the 

 glue will squeeze out when you press in, the window will then ‘spring’ 

 back to the cleco and fender washers – leaving a big air pocket where 

 the glue squeezed out.  Some of this is just plain going to happen.  I 

 will talk about that later.  Have Buddy number 2 start clecoing and 

 fender washering the window.  Hit the four corners, and a few other 

 places, then grab pliers, clecos, and washers and get them in.  Don’t 

 delay.  You want time to clean up and work with this stuff before it sets.

 

  

 

 The glue is going to be a mess!  Have blue shop towels and a couple of 

 plastic resin spreaders handy.  I took a couple spreaders to my band saw 

 and cut a couple of varying widths..  These are plastic and won’t 

 scratch the window.  The also are stiff enough to scrape the excess glue 

 off.  Buddy number 1 will be inside, scraping any excess off as it 

 squeezes out.  If you don’t have someone inside, this stuff will drip on 

 you fuselage interior and won’t be easy to clean up or sand off later.

 

  

 

 If you did a good job of taping, you will be scraping the extra glue off 

 the BLUE TAPE – inside and out.  Keep in mind, on the outside, you will 

 have to scrape around the clecos and fender washers.  Get the bulk off 

 quickly.

 

  

 

 Next – again, moving very fast – pull the first layer of blue tape off.  

 This will get the bulk of extra glue off and away from the plane.  Have 

 a big waste basket or paper bag nearby…because just like pro-seal – this 

 stuff can jump 10 feet and get on anything and everything.  On the 

 outside of the plane, you will have your extra buddy pull a cleco – you 

 pull the tape past the hole, then have him put the cleco right back in.  

 It should now be setting on the second layer of tape, or the electrical 

 tape.

 

  

 

 Go all the way around the windows, cleaning, peeling a layer of tape, 

 cleaning, peeling a layer of tape.  By the time you are done, the glue 

 will be VERY solid.  It won’t be impossible to get off, but it won’t be 

 easy.  I then used a metal square tip knife, to get the final remnants 

 off the window on the inside and outside of the fuselage.

 

  

 

 By using clecos and fender washers, the clamp force is regulated or 

 eliminated if the window has sprung up to ‘meet’ the fender washer.  I 

 did not get ANY crazing at all…not even one place.  My result was not 

 perfect.  I learned the lesson of pushing the window in too far, having 

 it spring back, and leave a big air pocket the hard way on the first 

 window.  I later came back with a tiny drill….used a light and drilled 

 two holes, then used a syringe with no needle to fill the sir pockets 

 with weld-on.  (I have extra weld-on since I had some that had expired 

 and I ordered fresh for the main process.)

 

  

 

 The cleco holes are now filled with epoxy and the high strength West 

 Systems Adhesive filler.  You will never know that there was a hole there.

 

  

 

 My results are not perfect, but they are not bad.  The real key is to 

 move fast.  We did this on a warm summer evening…and the Weld-on went to 

 set in a real hurry.

 

  

 

 These are my experiences – you can use them – laugh at them – or ignore 

 them.  I just know that it worked pretty well for my building team.  I’d 

 be happy to answer any questions as this one of the most intimidating 

 steps in the whole kit.

 

 Pete  #40100 – plan to have it Osh next year.

 

  

 

 *

 

 

 *

planesmith(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Yes C a very nice write up. 

To add to Tim & Gary's comments about cleaning the bonding surface C  I found this quote in Lancair's manual:

DON'T: Clean plexglass window with rubbing alcohol in the bonding areas after sanding. The plexiglass may absorb the rubbing alcohol if sanded. Never clean the edges. The edges are rough and may absorb the rubbing alcohol.

The correct method of cleaning the plexiglass window is to first clean the (unsanded) bonding surface with rubbing alcohol. Apply with a soft cloth such as a T-shirt. Sand the bonding areas thoroughly so no glossy areas remain. Using high pressure air or clean cloth C remove the dust from the surface. Don't touch the bonding surface proir to bonding.- Lancair Legacy manual

It's been five days since gluing the windshield in and now I'm getting crazing/surface cracks C on the glue joint C where I didn't use clamps:( But only on the windshield not the other windows (go figure.)

Did I mess-up? I think so. Is there some additional issue with internal stress in the window? Who knows. I do know the window is coming out for replacement.

Thanks again for the support C

Vern Smith (#324) 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Sun C 14 Sep 2008 19:01:52 -0500

 From: Tim(at)MyRV10.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>

 That is an EXCELLENT write-up Peter.  The drilling holes thru the

 windshield shouldn't be an issue they way you did it C and it is

 another good way you can hold it all together.  Like Gary commented C

 as far as cleaning before installing C I don't know that it's really

 a big necessary thing..but even though I personally avoided IPA

 for the wipe C I don't think a quick wipe of it would affect anything

 either if it evaporates right away.  You're right though...the glue

 is a pain mainly because it's quick-set and stringy C but it certainly

 works fine for putting the windows in...and doing it how you did it

 with helpers is a perfect way to go.  It's just great to have them

 in and done!

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 James C Peter [SD] wrote:

 > Hello fellow -10r’s C

 > 

Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now  [quote][b]

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