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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: Jabiru

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Kitfoxkirk [aviateer(at)gmail.com] 

 They say it is beyond repair and they do not know why. Rotax will not stand

 behind the engine as they say it is out of warranty. It has less than 400

 hours on it.


	


I am afraid you won't have more luck there with a Jabiru, Kirk. You see, we have all the fun to practice experimental aviation. But at a cost; we are on our own.



Because I was so new to aviation, I installed my Jabiru exactly as instructed by our Scandinavian agent. For example, I have a Jabiru propeller. Lynn and others on this list will confirm that there are much better propellers on the market. Perhaps. But in my mind, a propeller is part of the aircraft propulsion unit. Matching the engine is essential and I don't have the guts to be a test pilot.



On the Jabiru list, I read about pilots who change the carburettor, use electrical carb heat, shorten or bend the exhaust pipes, extend the propeller flange, use differents oil coolers, modify their ram air ducts, etc. Gosh, I call that extreme sport! 



Anyway, I understand then that the experimental engine manufacturer finds it difficult to respect a warranty.



The only reason I fly an experimental aircraft is that it is much cheaper than a certified one. The reason I choose a Kitfox and then a Jabiru is because less is more and less is safer. If I wanted high performance, I would have chosen something different. For me, the fun is to be up there, feeling free like a bird but also feeling safe.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as PAX

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

n981ms(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:31 am Post subject: Jabiru

Not to nitpick but all IO-240s are fuel injected.  That is what the I in IO is for.  So really the extra 7 grand is just for the FADEC.  I do not have the FADEC.



Maxwell Duke

S6/TD/IO240

Dublin, GA



--- On Wed, 9/10/08, fox5flyer <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> wrote:

 [quote]From: fox5flyer <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Jabiru

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 7:19 PM



[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>  Good info.  Thanks Darin. Deke do not archive  ---

ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: Jabiru

Good point on I of the IO.  The FADEC is kind of expensive and takes the responsibility of mixture control from the pilot and gives it to the FADEC computer.  For $7 grand I can do my own mixture.  In fact I would rather do it myself.    

I love the IO-240; especially now with the 2lb spring in the fuel distributor and the fuel pressures properly adjusted, and the bleed hole drilled in the throttle plate, in other words with the AD mods done, (which would be done on a new one. )  I believe that the IO-240 is the best engine available at the 125hp level, a very nice level for a 5 series or later K-fox.  Put a nice wood prop similar to a Clark Lydek Performance quasi constant speed in front and enjoy a wonderful flying experience, where you can cruise your Fox at 125mph and burn a little over 6 gal./hr or burn 4 to 5 gal or less while just ‘putting’ around, looking at the wonderful earth below.  I must say, it is a wonderful thing to know that what is up front will keep blowing the air needed to keep the pilot cool.     

   

Duane Rueb  

N24ZM/IO-240B4B    

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of W Duke

 Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:30 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Jabiru  

  

           

Not to nitpick but all IO-240s are fuel injected.    That is what the I in IO is for.  So really the extra 7 grand is just   for the FADEC.  I do not have the FADEC.

   

   Maxwell Duke

   S6/TD/IO240

   Dublin, GA

   

   --- On Wed, 9/10/08, fox5flyer <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>   wrote:   

From: fox5flyer   <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

   Subject: Re: Re: Jabiru

   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 7:19 PM   [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer"<fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> Good info.  Thanks Darin.Dekedo not archive ---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru

If I was buying a new engine today, I would get the IO240 or the new light sport Continental they are going to use in the Cessna Sky Catcher.  Those motors are a bit heavy, but I am a light guy so my plane would do fine.  It would be worth it for the reliability and safety of a certified motor.  I have owned 4 Continental motors in the past, two 0200's on 150's and two IO 360 s on a twin, they were reliable and very easy to maintain.



My Rotax 912 is great, its light, powerful, and runs very smooth, but it takes a lot more skill and finesse to maintain...  Its never missed a beat, but I don't trust it as much as I would a Continental.



For a very light, inexpensive engine with fuel injection the BMW looks like a really good possibility.  105 HP, simple, fuel injected, air cooled, and very light.  My friend has one of these on a trike and it is amazing.  It has an electronic hookup so that he just connects his laptop and he can analyze everything in the engine that quick.  I don't have the money and time to develop a new engine choice for Kitfoxes, but I hope someone does.  This could be the new light alternative we need to older technology Rotax and Jabiru engines.  Attached are a couple pictures.



Mike

BMWEngine2.jpg

Description:

BMW engine on a Zodiac.

Filesize:

41.7 KB

Viewed:

239 Time(s)

BMWEngine.jpg

Description:

BMW engine installed on a Titan Pusher

Filesize:

34.51 KB

Viewed:

238 Time(s)

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Jabiru

Speaking of older technology Jabirus, I for one am converting at  

least a part of that old tech to new tech, in that I'm currently  

waiting for the big brown truck to arrive with my new Electroair  

( www.electroair.net ) ignition system. You won't see the exact thing  

that I'm having made on their website, but close. I'm having them  

make a crankshaft trigger mechanism for my just rebuilt Jab 2200. I  

will no longer have distributors, caps and rotors, but direct fire  

right from the coils. I know there are other engines out there with a  

similar system, but this'll be the first Jabiru to my knowledge with  

this system. They normally provide a housing that replaces one of the  

mags on an engine, and this "timing housing" sends info to a  

controller, which sends info to the coils. I opted to do away  

completely with the Jabiru distributors, and let the crank trigger be  

my sole means of timing information. I will have to provide my own  

brackets for the pickup units, which must be precisely 180° apart,  

but that should be no sweat.



One of the faults I have with Jabiru....and there ARE a couple....is  

the ignition system with its (on my engine alone it seems) leaky dist  

shafts (grooves worn in the shafts from the seals), sloppy rotors  

after a couple hundred hours, and generally technology that is behind  

the times. This system will bring the ignition part of the engine  

into the current century, and the rest of it will have to suffer  

along as best it can.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled and back in the plane;  

waiting for new ignition system

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")



On Sep 11, 2008, at 1:18 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This could be the new light alternative we need to older technology  

 Rotax and Jabiru engines.

 Mike

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Jabiru

 	  n981ms(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Not to nitpick but all IO-240s are fuel injected.  That is what the I in IO is for.  So really the extra 7 grand is just for the FADEC.  I do not have the FADEC.

  --- 	




Yes, all IO engines are fuel injected.  I guess my comment in the previous post should have read "not only fuel injected but also FADEC controlled".  I figure most of us who have the capacity to build an aircraft know the difference between O, IO, TSIO and soforth.  Thanks for the clarification.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru

Hmm ... Well I love my IO-240B,  it cost a few pennies, and it

did fail once ... Otherwise it's a great engine. I like Jabiru's and

Rotax as well. They are nice engines.



When I was in the Navy I worked on Allison T-56's (5000 hp

turboprops) on Grumman E-2C's. They cost even more money, and still

they failed occasionally. Not to mention we measured fuel quantity in the

thousands of lb.s rather than gallons. 



However the only engine I feel is ultimately reliable is the 5hp Briggs and

Stratton on my lawn mower. I leave it out in the rain, summer, winter,

spring and fall. I never change the oil (I do add oil occasionally) After all

these years, even with visible stuff sloshing about in the bottom of the

gas tank it still fires up first pull and never misses a beat. Plus it's 

still running on the original spark plug.  I bought the entire mover from

Home Depot for less than $100 and consider it disposable, but still it will

not die.



Jeff.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: Jabiru

Jeff scrawled...

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 However the only engine I feel is ultimately reliable is the 5hp Briggs 

 and

 Stratton on my lawn mower. I leave it out in the rain, summer, winter,

 spring and fall. I never change the oil (I do add oil occasionally) After 

 all

 these years, even with visible stuff sloshing about in the bottom of the

 gas tank it still fires up first pull and never misses a beat. Plus it's

 still running on the original spark plug.  I bought the entire mover 

 from

 Home Depot for less than $100 and consider it disposable, but still it 

 will

 not die.



 Jeff.


	


Excellent points Jeff.  You're absolutely right.  My Skidoo snowmobile is 

the same.  I beat it to death in the winter and park it in the spring with 

whatever gas is left in it.  I don't pour in any additives.  The following 

winter it starts right up.  I add gas and oil, grease it and go.  This is 

after nearly 20 years!

Sometimes I wonder if perhaps we mess with these engines too much.   Sort of 

like killing them with kindness.

Deke

Oh, did I say it has a Rotax 503 in it?  Skidoo calls it a 500, but same 

engine.  It's no wonder Rotax chose it for use in aircraft.  Very rugged.



do not archive

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru

I wasn't really trying to make any point with my comment, just reflecting

on how I treat the mower and it always runs. I think you might have a point

though, which is that sometimes our tinkering with stuff actually is what

really causes more problems than anything else.



Jeff

tstaley(at)centurytel.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Jabiru

Jeff, 

Famous last words: If it aint broke don't fix it.

LeRoy

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: Jabiru

Hi Deke C  It sounds like your snomachine gets the same treatment as mine.  Mine is a 1992 Artic Cat 440 and I mostly just use it to drag a snow drag on my strip in the winter so I can land with skis without rutting it up.  When it's running C it's  getting a workout.  As far as I know C the engine has never been apart C and I got it a long time ago.   I have started draining the gas in the spring though C it goes right into the tractor. I have kindof neglected the grease though.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building C  Avid MK IV flying C  Mn

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru

 Date: Fri C 12 Sep 2008 11:58:12 -0400

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

 Jeff scrawled...

 >

 > However the only engine I feel is ultimately reliable is the 5hp Briggs 

 > and

 > Stratton on my lawn mower. I leave it out in the rain C summer C winter C

 > spring and fall. I never change the oil (I do add oil occasionally) After 

 > all

 > these years C even with visible stuff sloshing about in the bottom of the

 > gas tank it still fires up first pull and never misses a beat. Plus it's

 > still running on the original spark plug.  I bought the entire mover 

 > from

 > Home Depot for less than $100 and consider it disposable C but still it 

 > will

 > not die.

 >

 > Jeff.

 Excellent points Jeff. You're absolutely right. My Skidoo snowmobile is 

 the same. I beat it to death in the winter and park it in the spring with 

 whatever gas is left in it. I don't pour in any additives. The following 

 winter it starts right up. I add gas and oil C grease it and go. This is 

 after nearly 20 years!

 Sometimes I wonder if perhaps we mess with these engines too much. Sort of 

 like killing them with kindness.

 Deke

 Oh C did I say it has a Rotax 503 in it? Skidoo calls it a 500 C but same 

 engine. It's no wonder Rotax chose it for use in aircraft. Very rugged.

 <=======================

&g=======

[quote] 

Stay up to date on your PC C the Web C and your mobile phone with Windows Livetarget='_new'>See Now   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Rich L

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru

Darin,

Thanks for the info on the engines.  I have passed it along to a lot of people who are always asking about the "differences".



I also have a Kitfox-7 taildragger with the 912S and no airbox so it is somewhat less than 100hp with a powerfin 70" 3-bladed prop.  I finished it one year ago and have 215 hours on it.  I don't have the strut fairings either for the same reason as you.  I have taken it into many back country airstrips here in Idaho and it performs like a Supercub and just as much fun.  I had to learn the Rotax as I installed it and have really gotten to love the engine.  I don't know about the other engines but I would choose this one again, (unless someone offered me a 914.)  Your plane sounds like an awsome combo.  Good work......



Rich

North Idaho

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Jabiru

I've heard several times that the most dangerous time to fly an airplane is 

right after an annual.

Deke

do not archive



---

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:26 am Post subject: Jabiru

Jeff,

  I agree whole heartily with you. I used to fly P-3's with the T56. I also had a few engine failures.

  My lawnmower with the Briggs, won't die. In fact it is rusted almost all the way around the mower deck so that soon it will fall on the ground and I bet it still runs. Very good analogy!

            

                                                  Dick Maddux

                                                  Fox 4-1200

                                                  Pensacola,Fl



Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

  [quote][b]

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: Jabiru

Perhaps not related, but try running your Briggs on 100LL and see how  long it is until a valve sticks. It won't be long. 

  

 Do not archive 

 [quote]   ---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Jabiru

You might be right, Dave, but I've talked to many pilots who say that  

they save their drained 100LL (from sump checks, etc), and use it in  

their mowers, etc, without any problem.

I sure won't be using it in my PT Cruiser, but I may try it in my mower.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled and back in the plane;  

waiting for new ignition system

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive



On Sep 13, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Dave wrote:



[quote] Perhaps not related, but try running your Briggs on 100LL and see  

 how long it is until a valve sticks. It won't be long.



 Do not archive

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru

Well OBVIOUSLY you made my point, you're simply changing oil in the 

mower too often. It's too tight! If you go with the add only, change never 

philosophy which I use you'll be able to run your mower on anything.

Mine is quite happy to run on 100LL which it does.



Jeff



 	  Quote: 	
		  Perhaps not related, but try running your Briggs on 100LL and see how long it is until a valve sticks. It won't be long.

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