 |
Matronics Email Lists Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv Guest
|
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
Fowarded from Dave Watts:
Halon fire extinguishers can be bought in the UK from Light Aero Spare www.lasaero.com
They are expensive but are the only suitable extinguisher for use in the air.
Dave Watts
G-BXDY
[quote][b]
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
frans(at)paardnatuurlijk. Guest
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
I'm following this subject with interest.
I thought that the general consensus is that we try to avoid putting
unneccesary weight in our little aircrafts. How usefull is a fire
extinguisher actually? We are smart enough to only use uncombustible
materials in the cabin, right? We use teflon insulated wire's, right? We
only perform non-smoking-flights, right? So how do people actually
imagine a fire starting in the cabin?
Now I know a risk: the fuel. If your tank starts leaking you have a
potential fire. Actually this is the only risk. But I can't imagine how
to extinguish a fuel fire from a leaking tank with a small 1 or 2Kg fire
extinguisher. In the pictures of Jos' mishap I noticed that the fireman
had to use quite some more powerful stuff to get this fuel fire under
control. On the pictures there was actually more foam than airplane, and
there were still flames visible...
The downside of these little extinguishers is that they bring in quite
some weight, can become a projectile during a crash, that they are
unable to extinguish a fuel fire anyway but suffocate the crew during
the attempt, and that a non fuel fire is extremely unlikely.
For the weight saved you can bring in quite some other safety enhancing
/ survival goodies, for events which are more likely than a non fuel
related fire starting.
Just my 2 cents...
--
Best regards,
Frans Veldman
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
danny shepherd
Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Posts: 117 Location: north Wales, United Kingdom
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: fire extinguishers |
|
|
Hi All,
Thanks for all the replies. As a matter of interest, is it
mandatory to carry a fire extinguisher? as Frans said, would it be
viable in a fuel fire. If it is mandatory then a Halon it will be.
Cheers Danny G-ceri
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi Guest
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
Find A Sport Aviation February 2008 and look pages 98-99.
Dana Heimos EAAA 834980 writes as follows:
- The FAA and NFPA strongly recommend the use of portable Halon fire extinguishers in all aircraft
- dry chemical no no because IMC occurs and it is higly corrosive and detrimental to electronics
- CO2 no no because cold-shock and restrict oxygen levels
- water no no because there is a risk of being electrocuted if used on el. equipment
- Halon
1) does not restrict visibility
2) wonīt damage electrics
3) is low toxicity (!!!)
4) is chemically stable and totally safe for human
5) does not displace oxygen from the air
6) is perfectly legal for aviation use
There are two types: 1211-1301 blend and pure 1211,
an alternative is Halotron 1. Halotron is ozone friendly but
unfortunately twice as large and heavy as liked-rated Halon.
For me personally I have fire extinguisher onboard mainly
if something happen on the ground for my plane or neigbourīs one.
Probably during refueling.
It is not easy to imagine cocpit fire situation airborne but if that occurs,
pilot would be happy if he has Halon. About 20 years ago one
2-engine Piperīs cocpit flamed because choke (uncorrect word) fuel line
got broken and pilot caught fire. He has not (Halon) extinguisher
and elected to jump out as a living torch. Same could happen to
Europaīs tube type fuel gauge. It is in the cockpit like are those fuel
breathing lines also. I would be happy if they all were outside.
Letīs imagine you find some fresh fuel smell during flight.
Maybe your right leg or right hand also get wet about fuel.
***What we should do in this situation? ***
Immediately landing of course.
With electrics of or not? If you elect to switch off, there can be
in that moment a fateful spark during switching off.
Raimo from Finland
OH-XRT
[quote] ---
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
josok-e(at)ukolo.fi Guest
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
Hi Frans and all,
I had a light, i think it was 500 gr halon extinguisher under my right hand, just behind the P2 headrest. It would have been a costly mistake to try to put out the fire, even as small as it was in the beginning. It would have been handy though to extingwish my jeans, once outside.I think i heard it explode real quickly though. Just for the record the order of the blaze: Saw fuel from the return line on the right of the cockpit. The emergency landing drill made me first switch off power, and a fracton of a second later, when i was allready leaving the wreck, the fuel ignited. The fire quickly became larger, probably heated the main fuel tank, and then starded blazing like it was turbocharged. Probably the tank outlets had blown off. I don't hink that any build method or improvement could have prevented fuel getting out and or the fire. Most likely the fuel tank was still in one piece, and it looks from pictures i saw that also the long range tank survived. Since we can't fly
on water, there will always be a risk. If you search to eliminate all risk, you will end up with something that does nor fly anymore. The Europa, as designed, is a safe plane. The rest is risk management. The major risk is stall-spin related. After that the risk of fire is non significant. The Europa is still very controllable at near to stall speeds.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
frans(at)paardnatuurlijk. Guest
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
Hello Raimo,
Quote: | For me personally I have fire extinguisher onboard mainly
if something happen on the ground for my plane or neigbourīs one.
|
If it is for on the ground, CO2 would be fine.
Quote: | It is not easy to imagine cocpit fire situation airborne but if that occurs,
pilot would be happy if he has Halon.
|
I don't think so. Your main objective is getting down, as fast as
possible. Fruitless attempts to extinguish the fire and partly choking
yourself is not compatible with preparing an emergency landing.
About your example:
Quote: | About 20 years ago one
2-engine Piperīs cocpit flamed because choke (uncorrect word) fuel line
got broken and pilot caught fire. He has not (Halon) extinguisher
and elected to jump out as a living torch.
|
Suppose he had Halon, and then? You can maybe extinguish this fire, but
after that the pilot is still soaked with fuel. There was something that
ignited this fuel, and this something is still there. The fuel is also
still there. After the Halon is gone, the situation is likely to repeat
again, but this time without the Halon.
Quote: | Same could happen to
Europaīs tube type fuel gauge. It is in the cockpit like are those fuel
breathing lines also. I would be happy if they all were outside.
|
So, work on that! I have immediately abandoned the idea of using this
sight tube. Instead, I have a fuel flow sensor (also good to detect
leaks while airborne), and two separate fuel level sensors. I use a
one-way valve for the fuel return line, and have the tankvent arranged
in such a way that it won't leak fuel, neither upright or inverted. The
whole filter and fuel pump assembly is mounted in a sealed box, vented
to the outside. If one of these dozen jubilee clibs or tee's start
leaking, it is not going to make it into the cabin. I can't eliminate
all the risks, but at least minimize them, and make all situations where
Halon could be of any use most unlikely. If the tank splits wide open,
well, can't take away that risk, but then again the Halon would be
useless in that situation.
Quote: | Letīs imagine you find some fresh fuel smell during flight.
Maybe your right leg or right hand also get wet about fuel.
***What we should do in this situation? ***
Immediately landing of course.
With electrics of or not? If you elect to switch off, there can be
in that moment a fateful spark during switching off.
|
If you have your system setup properly, there won't be a spark due to
the switch off. The soleonid should be sealed by itself. The control
current is small, and by using a diode over the soleonid, and a small
condensator over the switch, you won't get a spark. You will get a spark
though if you leave the master switch on, and the landing is a little
bit rough. Probably before that time you will get a spark from your trim
motor, flaps, or various other little electrical critters on board.
Frans
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
frans(at)paardnatuurlijk. Guest
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
josok wrote:
Hi Jos,
Quote: | If you search to eliminate all risk, you will end up with
something that does nor fly anymore.
|
I search to minimise the risk. Not eliminate, but minimize. So I will
still fly, but without non closeable fuel sight leaking sources around
me, and with no other fuel paths (and potential leaks) than what is
really necessary to keep the engine running.
I understand this is a sensitive topic for you. By no means I want to
suggest that you should have build or act differently than you did. But
of course, an "event" like yours reminds us about the risks of fire. I
think it is no coincidence that we currently see discussions about
Halon, one way fuel valve's, etc. The positive thing is that we are now
looking how to minimize the risk. Personally, I never thought about
installing a one-way valve in the fuel return line, until reading about
your accident. Your accident may one day save my life.
Quote: | The Europa, as designed, is a
safe plane. The rest is risk management.
|
When I started building my Europa, I went through a lot of builders
archives, to see how other people built their Europa, and to pick up
good ideas. Later I started reading the forum. I became quite shocked
when I read that some of the people who were an example for me are no
longer with us. I had been digging through all your build pictures too,
and then some time later you became involved in an accident as well. It
might be true that the Europa is a safe plane, but every accident is one
too much. The builders archives are good for inspiration, but the
accident archives are good for enhancing safety. Both are valuable
sources to improve your plane.
BTW, how are you doing? Are you recovering well?
--
Frans
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
josok-e(at)ukolo.fi Guest
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
Frans, and all,
Airplanes are full of compromises. However you put it, there will always a risk factor. It may sound funny, but the best way to stay out of fires is not to crash. That is priority number one. And a a result people start adding return valves. Generally, adding components, especially components that you can not possibly check on every pre-flight is adding risk. And the reason is wrong, fuel came out because the pumps were still running. The flow stopped when i switched the power off. Now please do not even think of a when-shocked-power-off thing, because it might trigger in some turbulence Anyhow, it is all so dependent on how the planes comes to rest. Upside down? Nose down? It would be more interesting to mediate about the risks a variable speed prop without mechanical locks introduces and how to arm against those risks. That is for me the best fire protection
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Recovering well, right eye written off. about 2 weeks to go before ready to ship.
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
frans(at)paardnatuurlijk. Guest
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
[quote:6d7c3b23c0="josok"]Frans, and all,
Airplanes are full of compromises. However you put it, there will always a risk factor. It may sound funny, but the best way to stay out of fires is not to crash. That is priority number one. And a a result people start adding return valves. Generally, adding components, especially components that you can not possibly check on every pre-flight is adding risk. And the reason is wrong, fuel came out because the pumps were still running.
[/quote:6d7c3b23c0]
Yes, in your case it didn't matter. But I just realised that when the fuel return line breaks, you can't close it, and the tank will drain through it.
Question yourself why we have a fuel valve at all. This is to switch off the fuel, in case a line ruptures or something. If it closes only half of the fuel lines, it doesn't make much sense. A better way is a fuel valve that closes also the fuel return line. A one way valve is also a good solution.
Granted, adding components also introduces failure opportunities. It is a trade-off. The Rotax 914 would have less chances for a fuel leak if you install only one fuel pump. Still, people use two fuel pumps despite the extra components because they feel it is safer (me to). I feel it is safer if I have a way to close all fuel lines from the fuel tank, and not just one of them.
[quote:6d7c3b23c0="josok"]
Recovering well, right eye written off. about 2 weeks to go before ready to ship.
[/quote:6d7c3b23c0]
Do I misread this, or do you mean indeed that your right eye won't recover? If so, that is very bad news! I feel very sorry for you!
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
josok-e(at)ukolo.fi Guest
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
Frans,
The fuel return line ends above the normal fuel level. No need for a tap.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
frans(at)paardnatuurlijk. Guest
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
[quote:481482e23f="josok"]Frans,
The fuel return line ends above the normal fuel level. No need for a tap.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen[/quote:481482e23f]
Ah, well, then they have changed it. In my situation, it is connected to the starboard fuel outlet, at the bottom of the tank. At the same location as where the fuel drain should be connected. I'm running the fuel lines through the wheel well (which is relatively empty as I'm building a tri-gear) so the fuel lines remain lower than the fuel level for most of their length.
Hmm, that would also be a solution, to connect the return line to the tank vent outlet. Then of course a leak would not drain the entire tank. Is this how you had it connected?
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
josok-e(at)ukolo.fi Guest
|
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
Fuel return to the vent opening, top of the tank, and i just now checked again, it was non-standard. I had the Singleton fuel line system. Pictures on the Singleton mod pages and my builders pictures.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen.
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi Guest
|
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Fire extinguishers |
|
|
Hi Frans
"If it is for on the ground, CO2 would be fine."
Thatīs true. But if it is fixed inside the plane, Halon is your only sensible choice.
"I don't think so. Your main objective is getting down, as fast as
possible. Fruitless attempts to extinguish the fire and partly choking
yourself is not compatible with preparing an emergency landing."
You are wrong. Have you ever been on fire? Can you even think about those pains
and horror? You would be happy if you had a possibility to kill those flames (by Halon only).
I think that would be your first action, landing the second.
Quote: | About 20 years ago one
2-engine Piperīs cocpit flamed because choke (uncorrect word) fuel line
got broken and pilot caught fire. He has not (Halon) extinguisher
and elected to jump out as a living torch.
|
"Suppose he had Halon, and then? You can maybe extinguish this fire, but
after that the pilot is still soaked with fuel. There was something that
ignited this fuel, and this something is still there. The fuel is also
still there. After the Halon is gone, the situation is likely to repeat
again, but this time without the Halon."
That accident happened 18.8.1982 above EFJO. It was Piper Navajo PA-31-310 OH-PNP
and it was carrying newspapers. Sudden fuelfire in the cockpit. That was because broken
fueltube and a spark from some switch. That "something" was maybe once!!!
Pilot has not any extinguisher and elected to jump away (w/o parachut).
Where is some electricitet - there is always a spark possibility in every mechanical switch
w or w/o diodes, relays and condensators. Think about old Cessnas & Pipers and their switches
and connections! Maybe our extremely hi-tech experimentals are a bit sophisticated but still...
"Probably before that time you will get a spark from your trim
motor, flaps, or various other little electrical critters on board."
I think I cannot get a spark from trimmotor to the cockpit to flame fuel.
Anyway - I will carry my little half kilo nontoxic Halon-bottle onboard at least for peace of mind.
Man never know.
Regards, Raimo
| - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|