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wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

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Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

I'm looking at the bottom of the control stick as I assemble the 

various parts and am wondering what is the best practice (in UK) for 

getting the wiring from a switch or switches mounted on the top of 

the stick out of the stick at or near the bottom.



I had a troll through the list archives for various keywords but 

couldn't find anything relevant, despite having a strong remembrance 

of the topic being aired not so long ago.



I want a PTT at last on the P1 stick, but it would be nice to have a 

duplicate trim switch there too. (Yes, I'm thinking about shielding 

them from accidental activation.)



Obviously the electrical cable(s) should exit in a place that 

minimises the chances of (a) fouling up the controls and (b) getting 

chafed and causing shorts or open circuits.



It seems perhaps safest to make a hole in the aft side of the stick 

(CS16) just above CS01. That way a conventional grommet can easily be 

fitted, something that might be harder to do if the hole was lower 

down and passing through the thickness of CS16, CS16B, and CS01.



What have other UK builders done that has met with approval from 

inspectors and (if involved) LAA Engineering?



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Hi! Rowland

Find the place of smallest movement but not to weaken the control stick

along with your own appraisals mentioned below.

Regards

Bob H G-PTAG



--

wooburnaviation(at)google
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

I have my only trim switch on the forward face of the stick.  I was excellent to use.



 On 04/09/2008, Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk (ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk)> wrote: [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk (ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk)>

 

Hi! Rowland

Find the place of smallest movement but not to weaken the control stick

along with your own appraisals mentioned below.

Regards

Bob H G-PTAG



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Rowland, An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has worked 

well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed to stop the 

pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.

          As to trim on the stick, there is the thought that if you fly with 

other pilots and share the flying, then the co pilot will want access to the 

trim. For me having the switch with the indicator and a CB in some central 

position, reasonably close to the throttle hand,  makes more sense.

Regards, David, G-XSDJ

---

willie.harrison(at)tinyon
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa?



Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share?



Cheers



Willie Harrison

G-BZNY Kit 401



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>



 Rowland, An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has  

 worked well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed  

 to stop the pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

At 2008-09-03 23:17 +0100 peter.rees01(at)tiscali.co.uk wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I wouldn't drill the stick to the size for a conventional gromit -

this would seriously weaken the stick


	


Peter - I hadn't considered that a hole big enough for a grommet 

would compromise the strength of the stick - after all it's got to 

have 2 off 1/4" holes drilled in it near the bottom for the AN4-17A 

bolt that secures it to CS01.



 	  Quote: 	
		  the reason that the stick

diameter was increased when it went from steel to ali was that the ali

stick at the smaller diameter was not stong enough at higher G


	


Now I'm really confused! My CS16 are steel, have 2 bends and are 1" 

OD. They came in an XS fuselage kit collected in September 2001. When 

did the sticks change to aluminium?



I know the original Classic sticks were straight, but I don't know 

what diameter they were or what material they were made of. My paper 

manual (page 13-11 issue 1) still shows the straight sticks, but 

later PDFs show the cranked ones.



This suggests that there been 3 different types of stick supplied in 

Europa kits over the years - straight Classic, small steel cranked, 

large aluminium cranked. Is that correct?



 	  Quote: 	
		  On HI, we have drilled holes at an angle to the stick (heading

downwards) at the front of the stick (just above the point where the

stick passes in to the tuffnel bush). the hole is bigger than the

screened wire that runs to the PTT (and comm box frequency change) -

I've put some heatshrink over the screened cable where it passes

through the stick (and a zip tie each side to make sure that the cable

stays in place)


	


That sounds OK. If the grommet is eliminated I think you definitely 

need to ensure that the wire is not going to move relative to the 

metal and thus chafe. After deburring the hole (as far away from 

orthogonal to stick surface as possible so the wire has a minimal 

chicane to negotiate) I'm inclined to go for a tie-wrap around the 

stick below the exit, and some sort of bung or spacer to immobilise 

it inside and above the hole too.



It would be interesting to know if there is any authoritative answer 

to how large a hole can safely be made in the stick - and how that 

answer changes for the (3?) different models of stick!



I'm copying this reply back to the list as Peter's e-mail client has 

been set to reply to the "from" address (me) rather than the 

"reply-to" address (the list).



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

At 2008-09-04 09:50 +0100 William Harrison wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa?


	


Willie - Tim Ward, a regular poster on this list, sells nice leather 

ones made by a leatherworker in NZ, and supplies them worldwide.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share?


	


Not sure how that would work ....  Mine are not in service yet, but 

I'm planning to keep them fitted once they're on!



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

At 2008-09-03 23:09 +0100 Robert C Harrison wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Find the place of smallest movement but not to weaken the control stick


	


Bob - I think least movement is somewhere between the pitch-axis 

pivot bolt and the rod-end-bearing connecting to the pitch pushrod. 

It looks as though there is enough room inside CS01 to get the sort 

of wire I want to use past the AN5-23 pitch pivot bolt. CS01 is 

fairly beefy there, so I'd hope a radial hole would not cause 

significant weakness, but it would be nice to have an answer from 

someone who knows about the stress calculations for that part.



That exit hole would be insde the leather boot and so I'd want to 

make the sort of anti-chafe provision for the wire that I dreamed up 

in my reply to David Joyce.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

At 2008-09-04 09:17 +0100 David Joyce wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has worked 

well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed to stop 

the pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.


	


David - thanks, I have a set of Tim Ward's boots, but I'm not sure 

about keeping the wiring inside them as there is no guarantee that 

the wires won't chafe on the moving parts while out of sight in 

there. I think I'd prefer to take the wire down the outside of the 

boot, although that would be less aesthetic. However I suppose 

(thinking aloud here) the ideal solution would be an extra strip of 

leather sewn on to the outside (or even better inside) of the boot to 

form a channel down the boot between its (mobile) top edge and its 

(fixed) bottom edge. That would keep the wire under control and 

pretty safe from chafing as well as from snagging on one's high heels.



 	  Quote: 	
		  if you fly with other pilots and share the flying, then the co pilot 

will want access to the trim. For me having the switch with the 

indicator and a CB in some central position, reasonably close to the 

throttle hand,  makes more sense.


	


I was thinking of a duplicate switch on the stick, leaving the 

central one in position, but I don't know if LAA Engineering has 

approved such an arrangement. If not, I wouldn't want to be the first 

to lock horns with them over FMEA!



It's just that most of the aircraft I've flown with electric trim 

have a rocker switch on the yoke and I've found that so much more 

ergonomic and fast to use than reaching across to a separate switch 

or a mechanical trim wheel.



However, I may have to settle for a single central switch just to 

keep life simple.



Incidentally, I'm not planning to use a commercial stick grip as they 

are mostly fitted with much more complex switchery than what I want. 

I do believe that the grips I want are hiding inside some chucks of 

mahogany that I have lying around - I just have to let them out, as 

the sculptors say. But before I do that, I will need to decide how 

many switches they must accomodate and where the switch(es) should go 

....



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Hi! Willie

I recall that a guy in New Zealand made quite a lot in leather but I

have no details of them. I made a fiberglass box to encompass the whole

mechanism at the bottom of both control sticks and they have a simple

leather boot to the sticks and a draw string to tighten them on. Go to

http://www.crix.org.uk and click on "Bob Harrison's Europa G-PTAG" then

select Control Sticks.

 Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

peter.rees01(at)tiscali.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Hi Roland 



You are correct in that there have been (at least) 3 designs of stick 

- As you say, the early ones were straight - The position of these was 

so far forwards that the PTT very nearly touches the map tray. 



When we bought HI, it had a stick with a single crank in and made from 

Ali - this was the larger diameter (ie it fitted into the CS-01 without 

a bush). The position was pretty good but still not great.



The later ones, supplied in the XS kits are double cranked, smaller 

diameter (requiring a bush to allow it to fit to the CS-01) - this 

places the stick much better for those of us of a shorter stature.



Peter





----Original Message----

From: rowil(at)clara.net

Date: 04/09/2008 15:04 

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subj: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?




net>



At 2008-09-03 23:17 +0100 peter.rees01(at)tiscali.co.uk wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I wouldn't drill the stick to the size for a conventional gromit -

this would seriously weaken the stick


	


Peter - I hadn't considered that a hole big enough for a grommet 

would compromise the strength of the stick - after all it's got to 

have 2 off 1/4" holes drilled in it near the bottom for the AN4-17A 

bolt that secures it to CS01.



 	  Quote: 	
		  the reason that the stick

diameter was increased when it went from steel to ali was that the 

ali
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  stick at the smaller diameter was not stong enough at higher G


	


Now I'm really confused! My CS16 are steel, have 2 bends and are 1" 

OD. They came in an XS fuselage kit collected in September 2001. When 

did the sticks change to aluminium?



I know the original Classic sticks were straight, but I don't know 

what diameter they were or what material they were made of. My paper 

manual (page 13-11 issue 1) still shows the straight sticks, but 

later PDFs show the cranked ones.



This suggests that there been 3 different types of stick supplied in 

Europa kits over the years - straight Classic, small steel cranked, 

large aluminium cranked. Is that correct?



 	  Quote: 	
		  On HI, we have drilled holes at an angle to the stick (heading

downwards) at the front of the stick (just above the point where the

stick passes in to the tuffnel bush). the hole is bigger than the

screened wire that runs to the PTT (and comm box frequency change) -

I've put some heatshrink over the screened cable where it passes

through the stick (and a zip tie each side to make sure that the 

cable
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  stays in place)


	


That sounds OK. If the grommet is eliminated I think you definitely 

need to ensure that the wire is not going to move relative to the 

metal and thus chafe. After deburring the hole (as far away from 

orthogonal to stick surface as possible so the wire has a minimal 

chicane to negotiate) I'm inclined to go for a tie-wrap around the 

stick below the exit, and some sort of bung or spacer to immobilise 

it inside and above the hole too.



It would be interesting to know if there is any authoritative answer 

to how large a hole can safely be made in the stick - and how that 

answer changes for the (3?) different models of stick!



I'm copying this reply back to the list as Peter's e-mail client has 

been set to reply to the "from" address (me) rather than the 

"reply-to" address (the list).



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>





How safe is your email? - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/securemail

__________________________________________________________

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Hi! Rowland 

Just for the record I have the whole works in the stick top by Mac,

that is trim flaps and PTT. Andy Draper on Test(Before he went to the

PFA) was concerned about the use of charts activating the buttons since

they are very sensitive. I had a picture of a flip top cover I made to

get over this problem on the http://www.crix.org.uk site but it seems to

have gone missing, John Cliff may have been shrinking the site a little

and decided to remove it . I also have all the switches duplicated on

the panel but the relays necessary are a bit mind blowing! I hope there

is never an issue needing them sorted whilst I have the 'plane !

regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Robert C Harrison wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi! Rowland 

 Just for the record I have the whole works in the stick top by Mac,

 that is trim flaps and PTT. Andy Draper on Test(Before he went to the

 PFA) was concerned about the use of charts activating the buttons since

 they are very sensitive. I had a picture of a flip top cover I made to

 get over this problem on the http://www.crix.org.uk site but it seems to

 have gone missing, 

I know of one case where the Mac switch probably got nudged and caused 
	


the aircraft to be grossly out of trim (nose up) the aircraft spun in 

from about 100 feet

Graham

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

I have two trim swithes: one is in the stick (full speed)

and other one is on the panel (adjustable speed).

I use stick switch when landing (low air speed - faster trim speed)

and panel switch during cruise (fast air speed - slower trim speed).

I have a changeover switch to select which mode to use.

If one switch would go broken, I have still other one left over to trim.

Trim CB is near panel switch just in case to stop possible autotrim.



Raimo

OH-XT

---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Rowland C

 I have both trim controls C one on the stick and one on the panel with the matronics control system. This works first used first served.

 Best regards C

 Karel vranken.





   

 > From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk

[quote] To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

 Date: Thu C 4 Sep 2008 09:17:10 +0100

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 

 Rowland C An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has worked 

 well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed to stop the 

 pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.

 As to trim on the stick C there is the thought that if you fly with 

 other pilots and share the flying C then the co pilot will want access to the 

 trim. For me having the switch with the indicator and a CB in some central 

 position C reasonably close to the throttle hand C makes more sense.

 Regards C David C G-XSDJ

 ---

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Tim Ward from NZ makes great boots.

I am very proud of mine. All the colours available.



Raimo from Finland

OH-XRT

---

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Raimo-

  

 The article on your airplane is in this month's Sport Aviation.  It is well done and I really enjoyed reading it.

  

 Jim Puglise, Punta Gorda, FL 

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> 



[quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" 

 

 I have two trim swithes: one is in the stick (full speed) 

 and other one is on the panel (adjustable speed). 

 I use stick switch when landing (low air speed - faster trim speed) 

 and panel switch during cruise (fast air speed - slower trim speed). 

 I have a changeover switch to select which mode to use. 

 If one switch would go broken, I have still other one left over to trim. 

 Trim CB is near panel switch just in case to stop possible autotrim. 

 

 Raimo 

 OH-XT 

 ---

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

At 2008-09-04 23:36 +0100 Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The 1/4" holes in the bottom of the stick have no effect on the 

strength of the stick, as it is at the position of the holes 

socketed in to the lower fitting (CS01), which is of much greater 

diameter and with much greater wall thickness.



The steel stick is stronger than the alloy stick. In particular, the 

cranked and welded alloy sticks have virtually no strength, because 

welding removes most of the strength of the 2024 heat-treated alloy 

from which the stick is made.



The greatest forces on the stick will be in the for-aft direction 

e.g either in the situation of a jammed elevator control and 

feet-on-panel to get a decent 'pull', or as a matter of design 

requirement (i.e CS-VLA). That means that any hole in the stick 

should be drilled on the neutral axis in this situation (i.e. on the 

side of the stick) and as far above the point at which the stick 

enters CS01 as is possible.



As regards the size of hole, you could calculate that from the 

proportion of material removed from the, say, a quarter of the 

circumference of the tube. So if you remove half of the 

quarter-of-circumference, then the hole would need to be half way up 

the stick, for no significant effect on strength of the stick. Or 

calculate from CS-VLA what strength you actually need and how much 

material you can remove!



Anyway, why must you insist on a full grommet, when careful 

attention to radiusing of the hole and some extra heatshrink on the 

wires at that point should suffice.


	


Duncan - thanks for that very full explanation.



My original intention to fit a grommet was simply good electronic 

engineering practice. As I said in a reply to Peter Rees, if the hole 

edges can be radiused and smoothed, then securing of the wire against 

movement both inside and outside would be as good and perhaps even 

more satisfactory than a grommet - I just hadn't thought of doing 

that!



One thing that might be difficult is ensuring that the inside edge of 

the hole is free of sharp edges, particularly if it has to be distant 

from the ends of the stick.



As to the position of the hole, it's beginning to sound as though 

it's hardly worth considering drilling the CS16, and that a hole 

through the CS01 would be safer. From your opening para, I assume 

there would be less concern about adding weakness by drilling CS01 - 

is that correct?



I'm copying this reply back to the list as Duncan's reply came only 

to me (instead of to the list), and I think the points he raises are 

worth publicising.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

willie.harrison(at)tinyon
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Sorry, that was meant to read "..a design/template they could share.."

On 4 Sep 2008, at 15:08, Rowland & Wilma Carson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <rowil(at)clara.net>



 At 2008-09-04 09:50 +0100 William Harrison wrote:



> Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa?



 Willie - Tim Ward, a regular poster on this list, sells nice  

 leather ones made by a leatherworker in NZ, and supplies them  

 worldwide.



> Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share?



 Not sure how that would work ....  Mine are not in service yet, but  

 I'm planning to keep them fitted once they're on!



 regards



 Rowland

 -- 

 | Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

 | 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?

Jim,

  

 Thanks. My purpose was to produce a little bit  "different" text which should be readable also for possible non-builders and  even for non-pilots. Those people tend to think we - builders and pilots - are  not normal human people at all. Probably they are right. At least my wife said  so regularly and again this morning (he noticed I could not sleep at  all because I was planning some exciting modifications for  XRT).

  

 Raimo from Finland

 OH-XRT

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

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