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100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Reply with quote

It will on an engine that has been specifically designed to run on ethanol.
The same engine will run way too rich for gas and may get a block or two
before completely fouling the plugs. In a normal infernal (no typo:-))
combustion engine designed to burn gas ethanol only is very enimic!

Noel

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Noel Loveys
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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:32 am    Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Reply with quote

I really don’t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I’d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts.

BTW what is the freezing point of ethanol? I never considered it turning to slush at arctic temperatures. I am not that far north but I have seen -60 for almost a full week in Labrador several years ago. At that temperature Liquid propane will not vaporize so it cannot be used to heat or cook with from a cylinder.

I realize the engines probably don’t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units. The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel. I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation. Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest.

As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can’t say I’d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I’ve said it several times before and I’ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn’t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found.

I only mentioned the use of ethanol in diesel engines because it was mentioned to me that it was being used to fuel the big tractors used in corn production. My point was that just won’t work because the injector pumps just won’t stand up the low viscosity of ethanol. Bio diesel is interesting but again only to make fuel from used food product. Ie. Making fuel from used cooking oil. BTW all organic fuels when burned do give off a very poisonous gas, as I understand it the quantity is quite low but multiplied by the quantities several hundred million engines would produce and it could be a much worse problem than CO2.

I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere??

Your country is an exception that makes the rule... You have excesses of raw material. You don’t have tens of millions of cars and you don’t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I’d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I’d think long and hard before putting it in my plane.

Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking.

I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won’t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few.

Noel




[quote][b]


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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Reply with quote

Espuny

You make good points...

Is the fuel quality sensor integrated into your fuel gauge?  I find that point most interesting.

Noel

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:26 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?



Hi, Noel ,

I really don’t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I’d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts.

There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion.

I realize the engines probably don’t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units.

You're right, but it works very well.

The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel.

They have it. I told you twice.

I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation.

Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine.

Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest.

Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition.

As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can’t say I’d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I’ve said it several times before and I’ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn’t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found.

The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true.

I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere??

You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola.

You don’t have tens of millions of cars and you don’t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I’d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I’d think long and hard before putting it in my plane.

We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state).
Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country.
There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems.
I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now.

Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking.

Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA.

I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won’t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few.

Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often..
Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving.
People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy.
Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed.
What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox Águia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet).
So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible.
I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice.

Espuny





Espuny



Quote:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution



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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:35 pm    Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Reply with quote

Fuelling on the move... Sounds like something best left to an air force.

64 KB of memory is enough if you are only doing one job. I think modern computers use most of their memory for Graphic user interface  My first computer, a TRS 80, only had 32 Kb of memory and I used it as a cash register for several years.  Ok I had very limited sales.

Thanks for the info.

Noel

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:23 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?



No. First sensors were impedance meters inside the tank. It was accurate, but took a long time for the reading and the engine sometimes had to run several minutes on a wrong mixture and timing set.
Now there's a sensor integrated to float that tells the ECM that volume has changed in a sudden, so ECM uses lambda sound (is it right??) reading to determine a new fuel standard for real time mixture setup and timing setup because changes on fuel composition are predictable by exhaust gas analysis (as you have just two fuels blended and knows how each one behaves). I think that realtime processing would take too much time , so the ECM just worries about it when you add some fuel to the tank. But ECM will still be correcting the injection behaviour in real time for other reasons, as atmospheric pressure, as it does in gas injected engines. Note that first ECM has to know what's the fuel to be able to make further minor corrections.
I extracted this information from a technical text, signed by an automotive engineer and I didn't know it two days ago..
It's not perfect, but remember how we had 64 KB memory PCs in the late 80's and how things evolve quickly in electronic market. And no one is gonna fill the tank while driving.
Or, is anyone going to do that just to experience a bug ? Smile




De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 14:03
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?



Espuny

You make good points...

Is the fuel quality sensor integrated into your fuel gauge? I find that point most interesting.

Noel

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:26 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?



Hi, Noel ,

I really don’t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I’d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts.

There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion.

I realize the engines probably don’t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units.

You're right, but it works very well.

The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel.

They have it. I told you twice.

I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation.

Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine.

Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest.

Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition.

As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can’t say I’d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I’ve said it several times before and I’ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn’t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found.

The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true.

I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere??

You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola.

You don’t have tens of millions of cars and you don’t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I’d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I’d think long and hard before putting it in my plane.

We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state).
Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country.
There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems.
I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now.

Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking.

Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA.

I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won’t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few.

Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often..
Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving.
People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy.
Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed.
What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox Águia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet).
So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible.
I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice.

Espuny





Espuny



Quote:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution





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occom



Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:05 pm    Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Reply with quote

Limited sales was not a requirement. Every McDonalds used a TRS-80 for a long time running that green screen order tracking.

Do not archive
[quote] ---


- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:33 pm    Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Reply with quote

I’m going linux on one computer to try it... J

Noel

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:28 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?



I had to go to 4 GB in my Dell to stop reading Vista's window "Your computer ran out of memory. Close..." everyday.
Software needs grow faster than hardware resources.

De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Dave
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 22:05
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?



Limited sales was not a requirement. Every McDonalds used a TRS-80 for a long time running that green screen order tracking.



Do not archive
Quote:

----- Original Message -----

From: Noel Loveys (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:31 PM

Subject: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?



Fuelling on the move... Sounds like something best left to an air force.

64 KB of memory is enough if you are only doing one job. I think modern computers use most of their memory for Graphic user interface My first computer, a TRS 80, only had 32 Kb of memory and I used it as a cash register for several years. Ok I had very limited sales.

Thanks for the info.

Noel

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:23 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?



No. First sensors were impedance meters inside the tank. It was accurate, but took a long time for the reading and the engine sometimes had to run several minutes on a wrong mixture and timing set.
Now there's a sensor integrated to float that tells the ECM that volume has changed in a sudden, so ECM uses lambda sound (is it right??) reading to determine a new fuel standard for real time mixture setup and timing setup because changes on fuel composition are predictable by exhaust gas analysis (as you have just two fuels blended and knows how each one behaves). I think that realtime processing would take too much time , so the ECM just worries about it when you add some fuel to the tank. But ECM will still be correcting the injection behaviour in real time for other reasons, as atmospheric pressure, as it does in gas injected engines. Note that first ECM has to know what's the fuel to be able to make further minor corrections.
I extracted this information from a technical text, signed by an automotive engineer and I didn't know it two days ago..
It's not perfect, but remember how we had 64 KB memory PCs in the late 80's and how things evolve quickly in electronic market. And no one is gonna fill the tank while driving.
Or, is anyone going to do that just to experience a bug ? Smile




De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 14:03
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?



Espuny

You make good points...

Is the fuel quality sensor integrated into your fuel gauge? I find that point most interesting.

Noel

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:26 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?



Hi, Noel ,

I really don’t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I’d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts.

There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion.

I realize the engines probably don’t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units.

You're right, but it works very well.

The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel.

They have it. I told you twice.

I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation.

Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine.

Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest.

Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition.

As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can’t say I’d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I’ve said it several times before and I’ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn’t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found.

The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true.

I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere??

You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola.

You don’t have tens of millions of cars and you don’t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I’d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I’d think long and hard before putting it in my plane.

We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state).
Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country.
There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems.
I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now.

Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking.

Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA.

I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won’t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few.

Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often..
Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving.
People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy.
Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed.
What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox Águia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet).
So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible.
I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice.

Espuny





Espuny



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