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josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
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 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Hi Jan,
Glad that somebody is thinking at least  Thanks for that.
The voltage drop over a junction in any modern semiconductor is never more then 0.6 V. Specialized switching stuff scores better. But let's assume for the case that Ducati saved a few pennies. So worst case here is one diode and one thyristor conducting, makes 2 x 0.6 = 1.2 V (The other pair is off)
To get 80 watts you would need .... 80/1,2=67 A !
Conclusion:
Nonsense offered with the aura of a proper investigation.
Misleading heat camera pictures too. The red color is evenly, which is very good in fact, but there should have been a color to temperature scale. Without that scale, the "red hot" regulator could in fact be a mere 30 degrees. Now let's talk about global warming (but not in this forum)
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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charleslaverty(at)googlem
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Hi Graham
Can you send your web address so we can let you have some
photos of the latest drain on the laverty millions?
Gi
Regards
Charlie.
llian King ( Laverty) and Charlie Laverty
Forest Bank
19 Argyll Terrace
Tobermory PA75 6PB
Tel 01688 301264
gillian.king3(at)virgin.net
charleslaverty(at)googlemail.com
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jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:15 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Hi Jos,
I think I found an interesting bit of forum:
http://www.pilots24.com/pilots24/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7756&sid=542ce097cbdde3a5ceba2e5bd0d71c38
Scroll down to 40% of the page.
Writer Arrow is convinced that he has found the problem with the
912/Ducati regulators, as follows.
The regulating bridge has 4 elements:
2 power diodes MR2510 and 2 thyristors TP154E (obsolete) or 2N6504.
One diode and one thyristor in series conduct part of one half sinus of
the alternator output, the other diode and other thyristor in series
conduct part of the other half sinus of the alternator output.
The thyristors have TO220AB packaging and are mounted directly to the
housing.
The diodes have MICRODE BUTTON CASE 193 leadless packaging and Ducati
designed a mounting technique: both diodes with their cathodes soldered
to a small copper sheet, copper sheet mounted to the housing using
silicone foil heat conducting isolation; wires to the PCB soldered to
both anodes and the copper sheet.
Everything potted with a potting compound.
The problem is that heating/cooling cycles work the electrical
connections to the diodes loose. The symptoms are as follows: charging
ok after startup (13.8V), losing it after half an hour, but the warning
light stays off.
The writer has a diagnostic test using a battery and two 12V lamps to
check continuity under heating.
The writer has a solution: parallelling the diodes with an external pair.
The writer has notified Rotax and asked them what they had done / were
doing about the problem (January 2008). The correspondence can be
followed at:
http://www.pilots24.com/pilots24/forum/viewtopic.php?p=48297&highlight=#48297
Scroll 30% down.
The upshot seems to be that Rotax knows there is a problem but it must
be because units are operated above 80°C. No redesign yet.
By the way, Jos, the MR2510 datasheet shows a forward voltage drop of
0.9 to 1.0V at 20A, the 2N6504 one of 1.3V at 20A. Your 0.6V is too
optimistic! Newer parts may be better...
I understand that Schicke and Silent-Hektik make a better product than
Ducati:
http://www.schicke-electronic.de/dgr3.htm
http://www.silent-hektik.com/Duc_R_Duc.htm
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josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:19 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Hi Jan,
Excellent information, and pretty conclusive too.
The alternative regulator is what i have been looking for.
Because i am at the second ducati at 160 h only, i will order one as spare.
With the specs you supplied the worst power loss would be (1 + 1.3) V x 20 A is 46 W right?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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europabill(at)bellsouth.n
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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This looks like it might be a good preventative fix to do before the
regulator goes bad. Might also be able to use if the regulator goes bad
depending on the state of the diodes (would work great if they are not
shorted. A simple check with an ohm meter would answer that.). In the
regulaor I disected one diode was completely blown away and the other was
shorted out so the answer would probably be NO if you want to try using
after the regulator has gone bad. Also, they used MCR16N SCR's instead of
the TIP154E in the one I looked at so they have changed some parts. Only
the diodes were bad (Lousy installation. Looks like they were soldered to
the copper plate). Sure is a pitty you can't open these up without
destroying them. We could be fixing them for a whole lot less than the $150
for a new one....
Bill
A010
Monowheel Classic
Still Building......
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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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I have always wondered about the choice of ducati for electric components -
when I was in my biking days the ducati owners where the ones who had to
stay at home when it rained for fear of the electrics packing it in.
Will
Checked by AVG.
16:55
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jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Hi Jos,
That would be 46W at 20A indeed, disregarding:
- extra thyristor dissipation during switching (increases loss)
- small negative temperature coefficients of the voltage drops
(decreases loss)
I think I will get a Schicke when the time comes.
Cheers,
Jan de Jong
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steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Jan,
As the originator of this thread a week or so ago I was very interested to
read the input from 'Arrow'. Whilst the German translation needed some
translating I got the drift and understand what seems to be happening. My
regulator started to show signs of 'switching off' after I had flown a
couple of long sectors in high heat to Scandinavia. (3 + hours at a time and
chasing a faster aircraft (another Europa - monowheel)). The warning light
did not come on but the volts started to degrade and then the voltage would
be back up to 13+ without warning.
What concerns me is that Rotax are aware of the problem but (apparently)
have done nothing about it!? I purchased a new regulator from the Rotax UK
dealers (Skydrive) this last weekend without any warning of the problem
re-occurring.
Other Europa owners have warned me of the problem and suggested the Schicke
alternative.
Thanks again and we will see if there is any further news from Rotax in due
course.
Regards
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH Trigear XS 912S
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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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<<I still have the side gills to the top
| Quote: | cowling.>>
Monitoring of the regulator surface temperature in a number of flight
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conditions both before and after closing off the side gills confirmed that
the gills contribute nothing to the cooling of the regulator (mounted on the
firewall as high and as outboard as possible).
However, that may be different after shutdown; but does that matter if the
regulator is no longer working and therefore not "cooking itself"?
Duncan McF
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