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New Rudder Question

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LHusky

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 86
Location: Madras, Oregon

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: New Rudder Question

My Rudder is damaged and I had planned to replace it now that the fuse  assembly is nearly done.  Has anyone talked with ZAC on weather the new  style rudder will fit the XL for sure?  I work graveyards and when I get  home from work,  ZAC is not open yet and when I get up, they are usually  gone.  2 hour difference from west coast.  

  

 I was at Arlington this year and Dragonfly Aviation had their brand new AMD  601XL there.  He said it had just a few hours on it.  One of the first  things I noticed was the rudder looked different.  It had a trailing edge  piece on it and was very contoured on the top.  It was a good looking  rudder.  I took pictures of everything in hopes of duplicating it.   Then here comes the 650 with the same rudder.  So now that I need a new  rudder, I would like to build the new rudder if it will work.  I just  read the article that someone just posted and it gives me hope. 

  

 Larry Husky 

 Madras, Oregon

 

 



Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

DaveG601XL

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: Re: New Rudder Question

I talked the Sebastian at Oshkosh and he said that the new rudder would fit a 601 fuselage by using new brackets.  I could tell visually that the upper bracket was longer to account for the raked back angle of the new rudder.  I could not get a good look at the lower bracket to see how much it was different.  



Good luck,

_________________
David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area

pdn8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: New Rudder Question

Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?



Bill PaganEAA Tech Counselor #4395

--- On Tue, 8/5/08, DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com> wrote:

[quote]From: DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>

Subject: Re: New Rudder Question

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 7:05 AM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL"

<david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>



I talked the Sebastian at Oshkosh and he said that the new rudder would fit a

601 fuselage by using new brackets.  I could tell visually that the upper

bracket was longer to account for the raked back angle of the new rudder.  I

could not get a good look at the lower bracket to see how much it was different.

 



Good luck,



--------

David Gallagher

601 XL, first flight 7/24/08.

In Phase I flight test.





Read this topic online         [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: New Rudder Question

On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight

 characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?


	


I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any

difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt

anyone else can, either.



The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't

konw any way it could be improved.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

careywf(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: New Rudder Question

I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't any major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy, the canopy locking system and a few other minor modifications. If anyone heard, saw or knows of any major changes to the actual structure (wings, fuselage, etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing proven to date). 

   

  I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.      

    

      

Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard 



On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight

 characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?


	


I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any

difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt

anyone else can, either.



The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't

konw any way it could be improved.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: Re: New Rudder Question

Read some of the other messages in this thread...



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=46789



Also don't read too much into the concern over the wing problems thing. It seems that most of the changes were to combine the best of the European, AMD and Zenith versions of the plane into a new model.



Also check out http://zenithair.com/zodiac/ch650/index.html.



Finally AMD already uses that canopy latching system on 601XLs they build.



 	  careywf(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: 	
		  I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't any major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy, the canopy locking system and a few other minor modifications. If anyone heard, saw or knows of any major changes to the actual structure (wings, fuselage, etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing proven to date). 

   

  I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: New Rudder Question

Hello Walter,

  

 With your post I start thinking that is not that easy,  just for this rumors, to design a new airplane...

  

 A new model is not just like a cartoon in the news paper,  one new one every day or week...

  

 Also all Great Designers like Mr Heinz (and several others in the industry)  cant stay still with just one model.   Once a model is finished, their mind "jumps" to a new one... is just that.  They cant stop thinking, designing or inventing something.   

  

 To design a new airplame, even if its just an improvement (from the builders and pilots  comments and experiences), anyway this takes LOTS of time...  maybe years, I think.  Some go to prototypes or production,  some stay as ideas and scketches...

  

 In all industries, not just in the aviation industry. there is envy,  this brings the idea to start rumors,  everything to stop any competitors success...  But a good Company and a good Designer stays.

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 Hard work pays...  Back to work  

 Do not archive.



--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Walter Carey <careywf(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Walter Carey <careywf(at)sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: Re: New Rudder Question

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 11:58 AM



  I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't any major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy, the canopy locking system and a few other minor modifications. If anyone heard, saw or knows of any major changes to the actual structure (wings, fuselage, etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing proven to date). 

  

 I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.      

  

     

Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard 



On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight

 characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?


	


I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any

difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt

anyone else can, either.



The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't

konw any way it could be improved.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi  	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	


	


         [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: New Rudder Question

On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to

 distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing

 proven to date).


	


Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new

model!"



The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and

turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to

lower the nose a tad.

   

 	  Quote: 	
		   I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601

 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split

 canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old

 type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching

 system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.


	


My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that

they're developing a retrofit kit.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: New Rudder Question

On Tuesday 05 August 2008 12:04, Jay Maynard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:

 > I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to

 > distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing

 > proven to date).

 Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new

 model!"

Or, perhaps, a way to justify what appears to be a significant jump in price.

 	  Quote: 	
		   The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and

 turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to

 lower the nose a tad.

Other old-timers may remember the story of the swept tail on the Cessna 172. 

Engineering had an experimental model of the 172, on which a swept tail had 

been added. Flight testing showed it was actually 2 miles per hour slower 

than the straight tail, and had decided to scrap the idea. Marketing saw it, 

and decreed that all 172s in the next model year would have swept tails.

Or so the story goes. The 601XL/650 is a heck of an airplane. I hate to see 

minor changes that appear to be used to justify an increase in price.

-- 

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

Builder601xl(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: New Rudder Question

In a message dated 8/5/2008 1:05:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  jmaynard(at)conmicro.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The only    structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and

turtledeck,    and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to

lower the    nose a tad.

	


 

 They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking  the most questions.

  

 Jeff



Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: New Rudder Question

Jeff,

 

 It has already been stated that the rear attach plate is thicker because it is also smaller.  Is that somehow sinister? How many questions can you ask about that?

 

 Jay in Dallas

 Do not archive

 

 

 

   

 

   

 

 --

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: New Rudder Question

On Tuesday 05 August 2008 14:56, Builder601xl(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking 

 the most questions.


	


I'm not a stess engineer, but that attach point and the method was one of the 

few things in the 601XL that made me wonder. In a purely eyeball mode, it 

doesn't look too robust.

-- 

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: New Rudder Question

 	  Quote: 	
		   They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the most questions.  

   
	


I’ve already posted Caleb’s explanation of that change.  

   

-- Craig  

       

From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Builder601xl(at)aol.com

 Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:57 PM

 To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: New Rudder Question  

  

  

       

In a message dated 8/5/2008 1:05:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jmaynard(at)conmicro.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and

 turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to

 lower the nose a tad.  	
  

    

They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the most questions.  

    

   

    

Jeff  

  



 

         

  

Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.  

   	  Quote: 	
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: New Rudder Question

In a message dated 8/5/2008 4:08:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  jaybannist(at)cs.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  It has    already been stated that the rear attach plate is thicker because it is also    smaller.  Is that somehow sinister? How many questions can you ask about    that?

	


 

 I looked at both of them and they looked the same size to me and I  wasn't saying there was anything sinister at all I just wonder if it should have  been done to the 601 is all. I spoke to Roger about it at Oshkosh and I except  his explanation for it. But I have always thought they should have been thicker  as do most that build one. I would be willing to bet that most look at that part  long and hard before installing it. It just seems to thin is all. I'm not saying  it is or it isn't it just looks thin when you think about what it  does.

 I do like the new canopy but was told they were concerned that the center  section would be too week since they removed part of the turtle deck but  I'm sure they worked that out.

  

 Jeff 



Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: New Rudder Question

does the wing still have the forward angled main spar and the slight forward sweep like the old one?



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>

Subject: Re: Re: New Rudder Question

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 1:04 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard

<jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>



On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to

 distance itself from the concern over the rumored  wing problem (nothing

 proven to date).


	


Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new

model!"



The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and

turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to

lower the nose a tad.

   

 	  Quote: 	
		   I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601

 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split

 canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old

 type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching

 system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.


	


My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that

they're developing a retrofit kit.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com              [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Re: New Rudder Question

Dave, that was my question exactly. I just e-mailed Sebastien to see if I could have a peek at the wing structure pdf. That's the only significant change on the list, and honestly, it's a huge change. Changing the angle of incidence is no small change. How would one go about doing that if say you left the XL wing structure alone but actually tilted the wing back a few degrees. And how much would you need to tilt it back before it really made a noticable difference?



[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]does the wing still have the forward angled main spar and the slight forward sweep like the old one?



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Jay Maynard <jmaynard> wrote:

[quote]From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard>

Subject: Re: Re: New Rudder Question

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 1:04 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard

<jmaynard>



On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to

 distance itself from the concern over the rumored  wing problem (nothing

 proven to date).



	


Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new

model!"



The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and

turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to

lower the nose a tad.

   

 	  Quote: 	
		   I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601

 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split

 canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old

 type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching

 system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.



	


My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that

they're developing a retrofit kit.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com               	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: New Rudder Question

Andy, they are huge changes in terms of the ripple effects. I do not have the expertise to adequately assess them though. I will be lurking here to see what comes out.



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Thu, 9/4/08, ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:

[quote]From: ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org>

Subject: Re: New Rudder Question

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 12:17 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "ashontz"

<ashontz(at)nbme.org>



Dave, that was my question exactly. I just e-mailed Sebastien to see if I could

have a peek at the wing structure pdf. That's the only significant change  on

the list, and honestly, it's a huge change. Changing the angle of incidence

is no small change. How would one go about doing that if say you left the XL

wing structure alone but actually tilted the wing back a few degrees. And how

much would you need to tilt it back before it really made a noticable

difference?



[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]does the wing still have the

forward angled main spar and the slight forward sweep like the old one?



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Jay Maynard  wrote:

[quote]From: Jay Maynard 

Subject: Re: Re: New Rudder Question

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 1:04 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard

On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith  to

  distance itself from the concern over the rumored  wing problem (nothing

  proven to date).

 

 


	


Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new

model!"



The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and

turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to

lower the nose a tad.

   



 	  Quote: 	
		    I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a

601
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a

split
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the

old
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching

  system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.

 

 


	


My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that

they're developing a retrofit kit.

-- 

Jay Maynard,         [quote][b]

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