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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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 Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed |
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[quote="planecrazzzy"]Oooooh,
I see , you know everything....and "I'm" a liar
Whatever...
.
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Gotta Fly...
Like I said, even if you were able to get a motor to get into a back and fourth failure mode, a trim surface is geared down so far, the motor could NEVER move it back and fourth fast enough to cause flutter. A fialure mode that could cause a motor to run back and forth rapidly is a servo motor application, NOT trim motor Michael Sharp. Just because you might have seen one vibrate does not mean that this type of behavior translates to trim motors. Even in the worst case scenario if you intentionally induced a trim motor to run back and forth as fast as it could be commanded to, it would never be fast enough to equate to the trim surface moving back and forth fast enough to be flutter. Ever seen how slow an electric trim operates ? Flutter is something that happens many times each second.
PlaneCrazzy, said you were wrong, which you are. Why you are trying to turn this around into " Calling you a liar " is beyond me, you need to re-read what I wrote, no offense was intended. Also, I never claimed to know everything, but I do know about this subject, which is exactly why I posted in this thread.
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: Elevator trim tab information needed |
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Seems to me that if someone wants a "real airplane" maybe they should have bought one...>>
Even `real` airplanes suffer from elevator flutter. The Hawker `Typhoon` which was the replacement for the Hurricane suffered so badly that the fuselage tended to break off.
Had it not been for the tenacity and faith of `Roly` Beaumont, later test pilot but at that time Sqdron Leader of the squadron which was issued with these massive beasts it is highly likely that the `Tiffie` would have been withdrawn and the RAF would have been robbed of one of the best ground attack fighter bombers of the war. When equipped with rockets it was deadly as any poor sod of a German caught in the Falaise Pocket can testify
Pat
[quote][b]
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Ed in JXN
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: Elevator trim tab information needed |
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Hi Mike S.,
Would be very interested in hearing about your electric trim fluttering back-and-forth.
In over 30 years of flying, I've yet to see one do that. Have had runaways and frozen trim problems, but never one go back-and-forth independently. Not saying it's impossible, just have never heard of such happening. I agree it's nearly impossible for an electric trim to induce flutter. They don't work that fast. Haven't seen an NTSB report citing such either.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
[quote] ---
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Michael Sharp
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: Elevator trim tab information needed |
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Ed,
Hello there. My statement was "I've seen several of electric motors flutter back and forth". I never said anything about electric trim. I could go on and on about that. but it is not Kolb related. I have had one electric trim motor shutter on me but it was the motor and did not induce any control flutter. It was a shutter that stopped when the switch shut down, as it should have.
I'm glad that you have had 30 yrs experience and have not had any malfunctions in electic motors. good for you.
And to those that got their panties in a wad about my "real airplane" comment it had nothing to do with our airplanes. it was a shot at those that want to put more and more crap on our AIRPLANES that is not needed. As John Hauke is well versed in saying. And I agree with him.
Mike,
Do not archive.
Ed Chmielewski <edchmiel(at)mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi Mike S.,
Would be very interested in hearing about your electric trim fluttering back-and-forth.
In over 30 years of flying, I've yet to see one do that. Have had runaways and frozen trim problems, but never one go back-and-forth independently. Not saying it's impossible, just have never heard of such happening. I agree it's nearly impossible for an electric trim to induce flutter. They don't work that fast. Haven't seen an NTSB report citing such either.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
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_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: Elevator trim tab information needed |
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I think y'all are chasing the wrong gremlin.
It isn't that the motor is oscillating, it's the fact that the
combination of weight, linkage, trim tab, mounting method, etc changes
the aerodynamic characteristics of the control surface & the new
assembly *might* be more likely to flutter. All that extra stuff will
have its own resonant frequency and it will also change the resonant
frequency of the control surface it's attached to.
BTW, oscillation *can* happen if you're using a servo-type motor &
controller instead of a plain DC gear motor & simply reversing the power
leads to drive it.
Charlie
Ed Chmielewski wrote:
[quote] Hi Mike S.,
Would be very interested in hearing about your electric trim
fluttering back-and-forth.
In over 30 years of flying, I've yet to see one do that. Have
had runaways and frozen trim problems, but never one go back-and-forth
independently. Not saying it's impossible, just have never heard of
such happening. I agree it's nearly impossible for an electric trim to
induce flutter. They don't work that fast. Haven't seen an NTSB report
citing such either.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
---
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed |
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| Michael Sharp wrote: | Ed,
Hello there. My statement was "I've seen several of electric motors flutter back and forth". I never said anything about electric trim. --- |
The discussion is about electric trim, and you made this statement in response to an electric trim discussion, you very clearly implied that you were talking about electric trim.
| Michael Sharp wrote: |
No Mike, YOU ARE NOT!
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I know we have had our disagreements in the past. It is obvious that you were so anxious to jump into this and take sides, you were willing to post bad and misleading information just so that you could jump on the bandwagon. Now that this is not going the way you thought, and there is no group bashing, your response is " I did not say what I posted ".
Maybe getting over past differences would be the best way to go here. People come here for good information about Kolbs, we should try to post good and accurate information, not just try to disagree with someone you don't like.
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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Michael Sharp
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: Elevator trim tab information needed |
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NO SIR!
The reply that i made was to a Kolber who stated that servo's and or motors chatter or flutter.
You are the one who is in error once again!
JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot"
Michael Sharp wrote:
| Quote: | Ed,
Hello there. My statement was "I've seen several of electric motors flutter back and forth". I never said anything about electric trim. ---
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The discussion is about electric trim, and you made this statement in response to an electric trim discussion, you very clearly implied that you were talking about electric trim.
Michael Sharp wrote:
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No Mike, YOU ARE NOT!
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I know we [quote][b]
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_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886
Mike |
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herbgh
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145
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