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FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

Hi Chris:

  

 All the newer Kolb models have much stronger wings  than the old 5 rib FS.  You don't have to worry about pulling a wing off a  FF.  It has 22' wing span, very short wing panels, and lots of ribs.   Very similar to the Sling Shot.

  

 john h

 [quote]    

   John ,    Just a question after reading the distuction of those "tiny wings" on your    firestar,   Chris        

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

John , I knew you were the right man to ask thank you Do you know where on can find a picture of the plan or a description of the wing from TNK itself ? Thanks again for the reassuring description , the slingshot is quite a rugged model .    Chris



 ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

Chris:

  

 Call Travis, or maybe one of the guys on the Kolb List  will send you a scan of the wing plans.

  

 john h

 [quote]    Thanks again for the reassuring    description , the slingshot is quite a rugged model .       Chris



 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

Hi Will:

  

 I am sure Thom can reuse his H brace.  However, I would  not consider it, even if it had not taken the hit it did.    

  

 Glad you got to fly over Niagra Falls.

  

 First time I flew over Niagra Fallls was 1988.  Departed  the Falls, flew back up the river, over Grand Island, and lost the engine  halfway between the island and the mainland.  Elected to force land on  Grand Island.  Got really busy just prior to touch down, division of  attention, stalled the FS and dropped in left wing low.  Got the left gear  leg socket which was ripped right out of the gear leg socket tube cluster.   Did not take a whole lot to do this on an original FS.  Also, the lower  rear longerons always bent out of column as the result of a hard landing, or  striking an immoveable object on the ground.

  

 I went back and took a look at the tailboom photo again.   No way would I even consider reusing that H brace.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

  

  

  Thom said he  will trace the holes on to a paper and use it on the tailboom as a stencil,  sounds like a good idea.

 [quote]      Yesterday I got to fly with him over Niagara Falls.

    



[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

John Hauck wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		              Hi Will:

    

   I am sure Thom can reuse his H brace.  However, I would not consider it, even if it had not taken the hit it did.   

    

   Glad you got to fly over Niagra Falls.

    

   First time I flew over Niagra Fallls was 1988.  Departed the Falls, flew back up the river, over Grand Island, and lost the engine halfway between the island and the mainland.  Elected to force land on Grand Island.  Got really busy just prior to touch down, division of attention, stalled the FS and dropped in left wing low.  Got the left gear leg socket which was ripped right out of the gear leg socket tube cluster.  Did not take a whole lot to do this on an original FS.  Also, the lower rear longerons always bent out of column as the result of a hard landing, or striking an immoveable object on the ground.

    

   I went back and took a look at the tailboom photo again.  No way would I even consider reusing that H brace.

    

   john h

   

    mkIII

    

 	
 

 Guy's,

 

 >From one who has experienced his own personal disaster with a Kolb, I would recommend that you take heed of someone who has much more experience in the field of wrecking planes.   I'm surprised that he tries as hard as he does to share his experience with the group, since many tend to ignore what he has learned.  I found that John will share any and all knowledge he and his brother Jim have acquired over the years to this groups benefit. 

 

 Discount this advice at your own peril !!! 

 

 If you aspire to be the new test dummy that is you prerogative.  I would rather learn as much as possible from those before me so that I might fly incident free!

 

 Terry -  FireFly #95   750 hr.s

     [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

From: "Ron Hoyt" <rrhoyt_list(at)msn.com>

 ---

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

Anecdotal evidence to be sure, Jack, but consider this. Back in the beginning days of hang gliding, some manufacturers got the idea of using 1/8" cable as a hang strap for the pilot. Less drag was the big selling point, although worrying about drag on a standard Rogallo just seems retarded, now. But, the few who touted it went ahead and installed them. Why, the breaking strength is 2,000lb., so strong you don't even need a backup. We were all 170 lb. FAA size people then as we were still eating food at that time. Heck, this thing is good for nearly 12G's. Within weeks, several pilots had fallen from their wings. It seemed it really didn't take a big negative G going over the falls coming out of a thermal to produce one heck of a momentary load and *SNAP*. 1" tubular nylon hang straps, with a 5,000 lb. breaking strength and the ability to take a generous stretch became the norm after that, with hefty backups, too. Drag be darned. Just a thought, it is experimental aviation, after all. 



Rick



On 10/9/07, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>



From: "Ron Hoyt" <rrhoyt_list(at)msn.com  (rrhoyt_list(at)msn.com)>

 ---

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

In a message dated 10/9/2007 1:37:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  riddletr(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I    understand why the boom broke the way it did but could not communicate it    effectively to Bob Bean even when he saw the whole thing so I'm not sure I can    communicate it to you and the rest of the group.

	


 

 Thom,

  

 My flying buddy has an original FireStar with the  5 rib wing.   One day while parked, not tied down, the wind picked up the left wing and  tipped the plane until the right wing hit the ground.  The left  main wheel came off the ground.  Now the right wing tip, right main wheel  and the tail wheel were supporting the plane on the ground.  The wind  continued to push the plane over onto its back.  Damage was quite  extensive and very similar to yours.  The tail boom broke at the rear  of the H section.  

  

 You may have seen my report a year or so ago.  We rebuilt it and  modified the wings by installing 10 ribs, along with the 1/2" aluminum  angle braces John h. talks about.   

 Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon  NJ





See what's [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

Thom may be right about the vertical impact force bending the  

tailboom as there is

zero evidence of bruising at the tail top parts.

The sequence went as follows:  high stall, left wheel snaps on  

impact, wheel zips across to the right.

(at this point one would think that the tail would hit too, causing  

an UPWARD bend in the tailboom)

But since my boggled brain was focussing on staying out of the errant  

wheel trajectory I completely

missed that part of the action.

Anyway the plane continued sliding, nose down for another 15' until  

the stub picked a favorable

point to dig in and over Thom went.  Outside half loop.



As far as the H-tube goes, I would give it a close inspection when it  

is revealed.

When I rebuilt my bent left wing I had to replace its H-tube because  

it was one of the

all aluminum types.  The rivets go into a blind hole on them and  

there is NO way to get them out.

BB

do not archive

WillUribe(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

Hi John,

 I'm sure John will inspect it after it is removed and will replace it  if needed.

  

 Why did you loose your engine and how did you get your FS back  home?

  

 Regards,

 Will Uribe,

 FireStar II N4GU

 El Paso, TX

  

 In a message dated 10/9/2007 5:46:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Hi Will:

    

   I am sure Thom can reuse his H brace.  However, I would    not consider it, even if it had not taken the hit it did.      

    

   Glad you got to fly over Niagra Falls.

    

   First time I flew over Niagra Fallls was 1988.     Departed the Falls, flew back up the river, over Grand Island, and lost the    engine halfway between the island and the mainland.  Elected to force    land on Grand Island.  Got really busy just prior to touch down, division    of attention, stalled the FS and dropped in left wing low.  Got the left    gear leg socket which was ripped right out of the gear leg socket tube    cluster.  Did not take a whole lot to do this on an original FS.     Also, the lower rear longerons always bent out of column as the result of a    hard landing, or striking an immoveable object on the ground.

    

   I went back and took a look at the tailboom photo    again.  No way would I even consider reusing that H brace.

    

   john h

   mkIII

    

	






See what's new at .

  [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

At 01:23 PM 10/9/07 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I have tried the cables between the wheel axles on a Mark III Classic.

They work great.  I am sure that some cruising speed is lost.  I intend

to put a fairing over them.  I now use one 7/64" and two 1/16" cables so

that they will break at different times when overstressed.  On one

landing recently, I did not account for the wind gradient cause by a 25

mph headwind and dropped it in hard.  Both 7/64" tension wires ripped,

but the gear leg did not bend.  That proved a point to me.  Most agree

that wheel landings are the way to go.  I definitely agree.  These hard

landings are probably having a negative effect on the boom tube.  I was

wondering how to inspect it. Vic in Sacramento




	


Vic,



You were the one that triggered me to look at cables.  You mentioned a 

Challenger, and I took some time in a Challenger to be sure that I did not 

do something stupid when I flew the FireFly for the first time.  I asked the 

instructor for lots of emergencies, and he gave them to me.  One was and 

engine out and I had to land on a grass strip that crossed an asphalt 

runway.  I got down ok, but as we passed over the asphalt runway, the cable 

broke between the gear legs.  That was the end of my flight time.   The 

owner had a jig on which he made these cable sets.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

| Why did you loose your engine and how did you get your FS back 

home?

|

 | Will Uribe,

Hi Will:



Because I had fouled a BR8ES early on with the new FS, I was running 

BR8EV fine wire plugs.  Remember, this was 1988.  Ran great on the 

EV's until halfway across the Niagra River from Grand Island to the 

mainland north of Buffalo, NY.  All the sudden the 447 shut down on 

one cylinder.  I new there was no need to try and nurse a one cylinder 

447, so I elected to glide back over Grand Island where I had seen 

some overgrown weed fields near the highway.  Decided to land on the 

highway right of way, but changed my mind at the last moment to land 

over the fence in the field.  Was concerned I was over Canada, because 

I had seen Canadian flag flying at a toll booth on the highway, had 

diversion of attention, stalled the airplane about 10 or 15 feet above 

the ground.



Was saved by a young man that heard my plea on a local radio station. 

The crash site was covered up with law enforcement, reporters, TV and 

radio, newspaper, straphangers, and on and on.



I rented a uhaul truck, dismantled the aircraft and hauled it to 

Niagra International Airport.  A gentleman there had a hanger and 

repair shop.  We patched the FS back together enough to fly.  The 

airplane controls were out of rig, the landing gear was bent, both of 

them, the nose cone was busted up and taped back together with duct 

tape.  Fabric on the fuselage was patched and replaced.  Polybrushed 

and not paint or polyspray.  I flew it out of Niagra International 

Airport and back to Gantt International Airport, Alabama.  Took me 

three days to get home.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement

|

| Why did you loose your engine and how did you get your FS back 

home?

|

| Regards,

| Will Uribe,

|



Will:



Forgot to mention how I lost the engine.  An electrode tip off the 

BR8EV seperated and failed that plug.  The tips were fine wire and 

fused or cemented to the plug core.  I never ran another EV plug after 

that.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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