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hydro lock

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HodgeJW(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: hydro lock

Hey Guys,

  

 I was flying friends Yak 50 today (Tim G). I parked it for about 15 min.  when I went back to start it, I debated about whether to pull the prop thru or  not. I mean it was only 15 min. right? I only pull my 52 thru first flight of  the day. Well good thing I did, it was locked SOLID. Pulled the cowls, and  bottom plugs, and you wouldn't believe the amount of oil that came  out. From now on, if I walk away from it, I'll pull it thru. On  another note, man will a 50 tumble!!!! Damn, I love that plane. Here lately I've  been flying some hotrods (Pitts S2C Suk 29 Extra 300) but this 50 has some  serious personality. I cant thank Tim enough for letting me have access to this  beast. Thanks man. 

  

 Jay



See what's new atblank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: hydro lock

Why is it, these -50 and TWs seem to have "oil  events"?  At OSH this year, I notice you could tell where a TW or 50 had  been parked.  A huge oil stain on the grass where these guys pulled their  props though before starting.  Its seen the straight 52s don't have that  habit or at least not as bad.  Of course my CJ with it's M-14p does not  seem to do nasty things like that. Smirk- smirk -  ;>} 

  

 Jim "Pappy"  Goolsby



Se69" target="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: hydro lock

Solved my problem with a oil scavenger pump, but it is valid point..  Something about sitting at that angle ( tail dragger ) seems to be part of the “feature”

 

 

 

 

 On 9/13/07 9:09 PM, "cjpilot710(at)aol.com" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com> wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Why is it, these -50 and TWs seem to have "oil events"?  At OSH this year, I notice you could tell where a TW or 50 had been parked.  A huge oil stain on the grass where these guys pulled their props though before starting.  Its seen the straight 52s don't have that habit or at least not as bad.  Of course my CJ with it's M-14p does not seem to do nasty things like that. Smirk- smirk - ;>} 

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

 

 

 

 Se69" target="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

 

 

 ail Forum -

 ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 matronics.com

 

 

 	


         [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: hydro lock

Jay,  

I had a similar experience. I even had the intake drain open and got a loc. Rocked the prop  a couple of times and it cleared. I to pull blades each and every time before flying he 50. I think it has to do with the fact that those intake tubes are sitting on an incline of 15 degrees vs the 52 with it intakes being pretty  much parallel to the ground. Even with the 52 if she has sat for a few minutes I will pull a minimum of 8 blades.   

She does have a serious personality!   

My 2 cents.  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of HodgeJW(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 7:49 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: hydro lock  

  

  

     

Hey Guys,  

    

   

    

I was flying friends Yak 50 today (Tim G). I parked it for about 15 min. when I went back to start it, I debated about whether to pull the prop thru or not. I mean it was only 15 min. right? I only pull my 52 thru first flight of the day. Well good thing I did, it was locked SOLID. Pulled the cowls, and bottom plugs, and you wouldn't believe the amount of oil that came out. From now on, if I walk away from it, I'll pull it thru. On another note, man will a 50 tumble!!!! Damn, I love that plane. Here lately I've been flying some hotrods (Pitts S2C Suk 29 Extra 300) but this 50 has some serious personality. I cant thank Tim enough for letting me have access to this beast. Thanks man.   

    

   

    

Jay  

  



 

         

  

See what's new atblank">Make AOL Your Homepage.  

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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: hydro lock

It’s all in the angle of the dangle!   

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:09 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: hydro lock  

  

  

     

Why is it, these -50 and TWs seem to have "oil events"?  At OSH this year, I notice you could tell where a TW or 50 had been parked.  A huge oil stain on the grass where these guys pulled their props though before starting.  Its seen the straight 52s don't have that habit or at least not as bad.  Of course my CJ with it's M-14p does not seem to do nasty things like that. Smirk- smirk - ;>}   

    

   

    

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby  

  



 

         

  

Se69" target="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.  

   	  Quote: 	
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        [quote][b]

shinden33(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: hydro lock

I  concure.  I always pull my '52 through before starting no matter how long  since it ran.  The time is well worth it considering the possible  consequences.

  

 Scott

 N8252

 [quote]   --

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: hydro lock

Me too, I always have to pull the prop, whereas my friends with their 52’s have less oil coming out AFTER flying. AND I do the scavenging as it should be done. AND I’m quite certain that my engine is in as good a shape as theirs. Maybe it’s a coincidence. There are not enough YK50’s to have significant statistical data J  

   

Jan   

   

RA2005K YK50  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McGirt

 Sent: vrijdag 14 september 2007 3:17

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: hydro lock  

  

   

Solved my problem with a oil scavenger pump, but it is valid point..  Something about sitting at that angle ( tail dragger ) seems to be part of the “feature”

 

 

 

 

 On 9/13/07 9:09 PM, "cjpilot710(at)aol.com" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com> wrote:  

Why is it, these -50 and TWs seem to have "oil events"?  At OSH this year, I notice you could tell where a TW or 50 had been parked.  A huge oil stain on the grass where these guys pulled their props though before starting.  Its seen the straight 52s don't have that habit or at least not as bad.  Of course my CJ with it's M-14p does not seem to do nasty things like that. Smirk- smirk - ;>} 

 

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

 

 

       

  

Se69" target="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

 

 

 ail Forum -

 ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 matronics.com

 

   

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      [quote][b]

andy717(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:22 am Post subject: hydro lock

Hey guys,

 

 Future M14P pilot here  --  wouldn’t using a quick drain valve collecting from cylinders 4, 5 and 6 be an alternative to pulling the plugs?  I’m not sure if the Yak folks have/use these drains or not and I’m just trying to verify if pulling the plugs AND using a drain valve are necessary -

 

 Thank you!

 

 

 Andy

 www.radialrocketman.com

 Nashville, TN

 andy717(at)comcast.net

 

 

 

 On 9/13/07 7:49 PM, "HodgeJW(at)aol.com" <HodgeJW(at)aol.com> wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hey Guys,

  

 I was flying friends Yak 50 today (Tim G). I parked it for about 15 min. when I went back to start it, I debated about whether to pull the prop thru or not. I mean it was only 15 min. right? I only pull my 52 thru first flight of the day. Well good thing I did, it was locked SOLID. Pulled the cowls, and bottom plugs, and you wouldn't believe the amount of oil that came out. From now on, if I walk away from it, I'll pull it thru. On another note, man will a 50 tumble!!!! Damn, I love that plane. Here lately I've been flying some hotrods (Pitts S2C Suk 29 Extra 300) but this 50 has some serious personality. I cant thank Tim enough for letting me have access to this beast. Thanks man. 

  

 Jay

 

 

 

 See what's new atblank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

 

 

 ail Forum -

 ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 matronics.com

 

 

 	


        [quote][b]

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: Re: hydro lock

Most, if not all, aircraft with M-14p have the quick drain.  If you get a hydraulic lock (drain was closed, etc) then the only/best remedy is to remove the plugs.



[quote="andy717(at)comcast.net"]Hey guys,

 

 Future M14P pilot here  --  wouldnâ€™t using a quick drain valve collecting from cylinders 4, 5 and 6 be an alternative to pulling the plugs?  Iâ€™m not sure if the Yak folks have/use these drains or not and Iâ€™m just trying to verify if pulling the plugs AND using a drain valve are necessary -

 

 Thank you!

 

 

 Andy

 www.radialrocketman.com

 Nashville, TN

 andy717(at)comcast.net

 

 

 

 On 9/13/07 7:49 PM, "HodgeJW(at)aol.com" <HodgeJW> wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hey Guys,

  

 I was flying friends Yak 50 today (Tim G). I parked it for about 15 min. when I went back to start it, I debated about whether to pull the prop thru or not. I mean it was only 15 min. right? I only pull my 52 thru first flight of the day. Well good thing I did, it was locked SOLID. Pulled the cowls, and bottom plugs, and you wouldn't believe the amount of oil that came out. From now on, if I walk away from it, I'll pull it thru. On another note, man will a 50 tumble!!!! Damn, I love that plane. Here lately I've been flying some hotrods (Pitts S2C Suk 29 Extra 300) but this 50 has some serious personality. I cant thank Tim enough for letting me have access to this beast. Thanks man. 

  

 Jay

 

 

 

 See what's new atblank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

 

 

 ail Forum -

 ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 matronics.com

 

 

 	


         	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	
f on

scott-p(at)texas.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: hydro lock

Hi Andy,  

   

I have an intake drain set up on my Yak 55M, and it prevents MOST hydro-lock conditions, however, it is still possible to have enough oil in a cylinder which, when cold won’t come out through the relatively small diameter intake drain and you end up needing to pull the plugs. In my case that has happened twice in the past 4 years, but it does occasionally happen. Usually when I haven’t flown the plane for more than 2 weeks.   

   

Another good reason to go fly…<VBG>  

   

Scott  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Hawes

 Sent: Friday, 14 September, 2007 09:22

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: hydro lock  

  

   

Hey guys,

 

 Future M14P pilot here  --  wouldn’t using a quick drain valve collecting from cylinders 4, 5 and 6 be an alternative to pulling the plugs?  I’m not sure if the Yak folks have/use these drains or not and I’m just trying to verify if pulling the plugs AND using a drain valve are necessary -

 

 Thank you!

 

 

 Andy

 www.radialrocketman.com

 Nashville, TN

 andy717(at)comcast.net

 

 

 

 On 9/13/07 7:49 PM, "HodgeJW(at)aol.com" <HodgeJW(at)aol.com> wrote:  

Hey Guys,

  

 I was flying friends Yak 50 today (Tim G). I parked it for about 15 min. when I went back to start it, I debated about whether to pull the prop thru or not. I mean it was only 15 min. right? I only pull my 52 thru first flight of the day. Well good thing I did, it was locked SOLID. Pulled the cowls, and bottom plugs, and you wouldn't believe the amount of oil that came out. From now on, if I walk away from it, I'll pull it thru. On another note, man will a 50 tumble!!!! Damn, I love that plane. Here lately I've been flying some hotrods (Pitts S2C Suk 29 Extra 300) but this 50 has some serious personality. I cant thank Tim enough for letting me have access to this beast. Thanks man. 

  

 Jay

 

 

       

  

See what's new atblank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

 

 

 ail Forum -

 ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 matronics.com

 

   

    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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       [quote][b]

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: hydro lock

On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Andy Hawes wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hey guys,



 Future M14P pilot here  --  wouldn’t using a quick drain valve  

 collecting from cylinders 4, 5 and 6 be an alternative to pulling  

 the plugs?  I’m not sure if the Yak folks have/use these drains or  

 not and I’m just trying to verify if pulling the plugs AND using a  

 drain valve are necessary -


	


The quick drains drain the intake riser tubes, not the cylinder. If  

the intake valve is closed and oil goes past the rings into the  

cylinder itself it would never make it to the quick drain. (As the  

engine cools, air trapped in the cylinder decreases in volume and  

forms a vacuum which can suck-in any oil sitting on top of the piston.)



So, the quick drains do not necessarily end up with all the oil at  

the low point.



Some people like to turn the engine backwards when encountering  

resistance/lock which then pushes oil from the cylinder to the intake  

tube. There are two problems with this that may cause the engine to  

hydraulic lock again upon starting:



1. The intake valve is not necessarily the lowest point in the  

cylinder. Significant quantity of oil can still sit in the head. Best  

case this raises compression. Worst case is that there might be  

enough to cause a lock.



2. Oil that is pushed into the intake tube might not go out the quick  

drain and instead remain in the intake tube. This oil can be sucked  

back into the cylinder and cause a lock after the engine fires. If  

there is enough this is just about guaranteed to bend/break a piston  

or con-rod.



The ONLY 100% safe way to undo a hydraulic lock is to open in the  

intake drains, pull the bottom plugs, and pull the engine through  

until you can get no more oil from the plug holes or the intake drain  

plug holes.



Given how much a broken engine can cost, it just isn't worth the time  

saved by doing a half-assed job of clearing the bottom cylinders.  

Also remember, a partial lock can bend a rod but leave no other  

symptoms. Your engine then becomes a time-bomb.

--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: hydro lock

Read Brian Lloyd's reply to this one for the best of advice, but let me

just add a few things: 



1. I own a YAK-50 with intake drains, and due to a slightly leaky ball

check valve in my oil pump I get oil into the cylinders very quickly.

In a month of no flying I can actually lose up to 3 GALLONS of oil.  If

I fly every two weeks or so, that never happens.  



2.  Each person has his or her own method for getting oil out of the

cylinders, Brian's method being the most safe obviously.  



3.  Probably the best method I saw of everyone listed was on Sergei

Boriak's SU-31 (before it crashed).  Sergei was sick and tired of oil in

the cylinders and having to pull it through EVERY time.  



A. He spent a huge amount of $$$ and had new pistons put in with gapless

rings.  Much more was done here than I will list, but the rings made a

big difference.  



B.  The best trick was that he installed an OIL VALVE in the oil supply

line to the engine.  Yes, there is an obvious danger in doing that.  He

put in the typical safety steps with starter inhibitors, etc. etc.  And

I am sure, a lot of people will say it is still too dangerous.  So if

you feel that way, good for you.  Keep yanking the plugs.  On the flip

side, shutting off the oil supply pretty much puts an END to this

problem.  



C.  The last step was to install an engine sump line going to an

electrical pump.  After landing and shutting the engine down, you run

the pump and the oil from the sump is pumped back into the main oil

tank.  



You combine all three and you have a very dry engine, no oil on the

ground, and no need to pull it through, and no chance of hydrostatic

locks.  



I'm going to go with the main tank oil shut off valve, with push pull

control from the cockpit.  



Mark 

N50YK



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: hydro lock

I had them as well, and they work GREAT.  I was just too worried about one of the many oil hoses coming off in flight and me never being able to know it was happening.  In my way of thinking, the more oil hoses and clamps you can remove, the better off you are.  



I also had his original electrical sump pump.  It worked great as well.  



Mark 

N50YK

 



--

wlannon(at)cablerocket.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: hydro lock

Right on Brian.

Good to have you back.



Walt

---

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: hydro lock

On Sep 14, 2007, at 9:07 PM, Walter Lannon wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <wlannon(at)cablerocket.com>



 Right on Brian.

 Good to have you back.


	


Thanks Walt.

--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

andy717(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: hydro lock

Thanks very much for all the very detailed replies.  I believe the current

prototype for the Radial Rocket is using both an electric sump pump for post

flight clean up, the oil shut-off valve as well as the valve/drain with

success.  As I get closer to setting up fuel, air and oil systems I'm sure

I'll have even more questions.

Thanks again for everyone's extensive input and time here --

Andy Hawes

www.radialrocketman.com

Nashville, TN

andy717(at)comcast.net

On 9/14/07 12:03 PM, "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Andy Hawes wrote:

> Hey guys,

> 

> Future M14P pilot here  --  wouldn¹t using a quick drain valve

> collecting from cylinders 4, 5 and 6 be an alternative to pulling

> the plugs?  I¹m not sure if the Yak folks have/use these drains or

> not and I¹m just trying to verify if pulling the plugs AND using a

> drain valve are necessary -

 The quick drains drain the intake riser tubes, not the cylinder. If

 the intake valve is closed and oil goes past the rings into the

 cylinder itself it would never make it to the quick drain. (As the

 engine cools, air trapped in the cylinder decreases in volume and

 forms a vacuum which can suck-in any oil sitting on top of the piston.)

 So, the quick drains do not necessarily end up with all the oil at

 the low point.

 Some people like to turn the engine backwards when encountering

 resistance/lock which then pushes oil from the cylinder to the intake

 tube. There are two problems with this that may cause the engine to

 hydraulic lock again upon starting:

 1. The intake valve is not necessarily the lowest point in the

 cylinder. Significant quantity of oil can still sit in the head. Best

 case this raises compression. Worst case is that there might be

 enough to cause a lock.

 2. Oil that is pushed into the intake tube might not go out the quick

 drain and instead remain in the intake tube. This oil can be sucked

 back into the cylinder and cause a lock after the engine fires. If

 there is enough this is just about guaranteed to bend/break a piston

 or con-rod.

 The ONLY 100% safe way to undo a hydraulic lock is to open in the

 intake drains, pull the bottom plugs, and pull the engine through

 until you can get no more oil from the plug holes or the intake drain

 plug holes.

 Given how much a broken engine can cost, it just isn't worth the time

 saved by doing a half-assed job of clearing the bottom cylinders.

 Also remember, a partial lock can bend a rod but leave no other

 symptoms. Your engine then becomes a time-bomb.

 --

 Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

 brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

 I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 ‹ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

 PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

 PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

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