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Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons
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CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

Hey all - 



All this talk about ailerons has got me wondering if someone could

answer my previously (unanswered) question about how much downward throw

the ailerons have?  I don't want anything very scientific like degrees

or anything.  Just maybe a measurement from the trailing edge of the

aileron at full down deflection to the trailing edge of the flap with

the flap in the full up position.  I'm still nervous about my rubbing

issue, and I'm nowhere near mounting the wings so that I can see if it

really is a problem.  Could someone help me out?



Thanks!



cj

#40410

fuse

www.perfectlygoodairplane.net



--

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

Not a service bulletin, but something that addresses the obvious rigging

issue.  Best to have that change come out of Vans so it hits everyone.   



--

deutscht(at)rhwhotels.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

Since I just finished rigging my controls in preparation for my first

flight I just had to go to the airport to check.  What I found was my

ailerons were perfectly aliened with the elevator in the neutral

position and when going to full up elevator they raised approx 3/16" and

at full down elevator they also raised the same amount. Interesting.  I

agree with Tim that is not a big cause for concern.  If you rig with the

elevator at neutral you will be good to go.



Tim, do you have an accumulation of performance stats for the 10?  If so

were can I find it?



Tom Deutsch, #40545



--

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

Coincidentally, we have been adjusting the ailerons of the two RV-10's at Watsonville observing all that has been written. Has anyone noticed a change in handling characteristics or cruise speed improvements when making the adjustment between trailing edges flush on the ground vs flush in the air?

   

  To quantify the adjustment (N939SB), it was one full turn of the rod end fitting will lift one aileron .25 inch.

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, flying

  billderou(at)yahoo.com (billderou(at)yahoo.com)

  



John Jessen <jjessen(at)rcn.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" 



Not a service bulletin, but something that addresses the obvious rigging

issue. Best to have that change come out of Vans so  it hits everyone. 



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

Tom,



I still have this page posted from last year:

http://www.myrv10.com/performance/



I haven't uploaded the new one yet that will replace it, but I've wiped

the slate and intend to start over with the specs.  Initially I had that

airspeed error that I didn't even know about (because I didn't test

for it), so my numbers were messed up....and I had to adjust them after

the fact.  So I'm going to re-write the entire page and just start

logging some numbers on flights.



What I REALLY want to get is to have some other people, ONLY those

who've actually measured their airspeed indication error, shoot me

some of their specs over time too.  That way we can kind of have a

good broad-based list of power settings and altitudes for people to

compare too, with various engines and props.  Nobody's ever sent

anything yet though...and I don't want numbers that aren't fairly

complete.



So anyway, you'll see this page start fresh soon.  I may have to

actually get out and see how fast it goes too, just to keep people

smiling about numbers.  To date, I think the fastest I've let it

climb in speed is about 184 or 185kts TAS, but I'm not sure that it

was done yet.



Tim



Tom Deutsch wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Since I just finished rigging my controls in preparation for my first

 flight I just had to go to the airport to check.  What I found was my

 ailerons were perfectly aliened with the elevator in the neutral

 position and when going to full up elevator they raised approx 3/16" and

 at full down elevator they also raised the same amount. Interesting.  I

 agree with Tim that is not a big cause for concern.  If you rig with the

 elevator at neutral you will be good to go.

 

 Tim, do you have an accumulation of performance stats for the 10?  If so

 were can I find it?

 

 Tom Deutsch, #40545

 

 --

markandangelasrv10(at)yah
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

When I first saw this thread, it got me curious.  Since I don’t even have the fuselage kit yet all I have to go from is what I can see in the plans.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

   

  According to the pics on p.1 of sections 23, 39 & 44, the bottom of the control stick where the F-1064 aileron pushrod assembly attaches swings fore & aft through an arc when elevator input is put into the stick.  This means the inboard end of the F-1064 moves fore & aft with elevator input.  The  outboard end of the F-1064 is fixed in the fore & aft direction.  So, the farther the inboard end of the F-1064 moves away from the neutral point (this goes for either forward or rearward movement), the more the outboard end of the F-1064 is pulled inward.

   

  Following the control linkages out to the ailerons, this translates to up aileron movement on both wings.  So, it sounds like if the aileron neutral point was set with the stick full aft (or foreword) then that explains why they would then ‘droop’ when the stick is moved back to neutral.

   

  Of course, that all sounds good in theory…

   

  As Tom mentions, his ailerons move up with full stick motion fore or aft, which seems to support the theory.  So, if someone really wants to isolate this and prove my theory, it seems the wing root farings can be pulled to check the outboard end of the F-1064 for inward travel with fore & aft stick movement.  Anyone want to try it???



   	  Quote: 	
		  

Tom Deutsch wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tom Deutsch" 

 

 Since I just finished rigging my controls in preparation for my first

 flight I just had to go to the airport to check. What I found was my

 ailerons were perfectly aliened with the elevator in the neutral

 position and when going to full up elevator they raised approx 3/16" and

 at full down elevator they also raised the same amount. Interesting. I

 agree with Tim that is not a big cause for concern. If you rig with the

 elevator at neutral you will be good to go.

 

 Tim, do you have an accumulation of performance stats for the 10? If so

 were can I find it?

 

 Tom Deutsch, #40545

	

	




Mark Lanier

#519

www.lanier-rv10.com

   Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

Chris,



I think I have what you need.  My wife was nice enough to drive

out to the hanger and get the measurements because I've been too

busy to get there.   I had her measure from the tip of the

aileron to the tip of the flap with the flaps up.  The ailerons

deflect upwards about 4" even, and they deflect downwards about 3"

even.  That should give you an idea of the total travel that you'll

get.  Sorry it took so long....darn wife, you know, she just didn't

jump quick enough. When I say jump, I expect to hear "How High?".

(Just kidding...and DO NOT ARCHIVE or I may find myself living

at the hanger!)  She's a good girl, that's for sure.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Chris Johnston wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hey all - 

 

 All this talk about ailerons has got me wondering if someone could

 answer my previously (unanswered) question about how much downward throw

 the ailerons have?  I don't want anything very scientific like degrees

 or anything.  Just maybe a measurement from the trailing edge of the

 aileron at full down deflection to the trailing edge of the flap with

 the flap in the full up position.  I'm still nervous about my rubbing

 issue, and I'm nowhere near mounting the wings so that I can see if it

 really is a problem.  Could someone help me out?

 

 Thanks!

 

 cj

 #40410

 fuse

 www.perfectlygoodairplane.net

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

How come so many of us have asked before but now FINALLY an answer...AND you had to get your wife to do it!!!!  



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

We have two stock RV-10's out at Watsonville, CA: one with ailerons set trailing edges faired on ground, and one trailing edges faired in cruise. The adjustments to get from the lower to higher position is one full rod end turn per aileron or approx 1/4". Noticed that the aircraft with ailerons adjusted to faired in cruise (higher) required that the lower leading edge of the aileron begins to dip into the airstream suggesting that this is the max upper limit. Formation flying was used to determine speed differences by setting same power, fuel flow, & RPM.

   

  Thinking about some very good input from others it would probably be wise to duct tape the elevators fair with the horizonal stab to create a proper origin and then set the ailerons. This would be best case for a forward CG (front seat occupants with little baggage) mission.

   

  We installed markers to help measure elevator vs horizontal  stab difference, added tuffs to flaps, ailerons, and wingtips. 

   

  Results were that in both cases the tuffs exitted the trailing edge parallel with the aileron chord. This would make sense since we were probably pitching the wing leading edge. The elevators were faired with the horizontal stabilizer in flight. And the RV10 with the upper aileron setting was "maybe 1 knot" faster.

   

  Our conclusion was the speed difference was too small to be significant and could have been due to other causes. If I were to experiment with this further I would try a setting that the forward underside of the aileron fairs smooth with the wing when the elevator is taped to the horizon stab. This is probably somewhere between the settings tested.

   

  Lessons learned:

     1) Applying a lot of effort to aileron adjustment will probably not produce speed improvements.

      2) Formation flying is great fun!

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, flying

  billderou(at)yahoo.com (billderou(at)yahoo.com)

   

   

   

   

  



Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson 



Chris,



I think I have what you need. My wife was nice enough to drive

out to the hanger and get the measurements because I've been too

busy to get there. I had her measure from the tip of the

aileron to the tip of the flap with the flaps up. The ailerons

deflect upwards about 4" even, and they deflect downwards about 3"

even. That should give you an idea of the total travel that you'll

get. Sorry it took so long....darn wife, you  know, she just didn't

jump quick enough. When I say jump, I expect to hear "How High?".

(Just kidding...and DO NOT ARCHIVE or I may find myself living

at the hanger!) She's a good girl, that's for sure.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Chris Johnston wrote:

[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston" 

 

 Hey all - 

 

 All this talk about ailerons has got me wondering if someone could

 answer my previously (unanswered) question about how much downward throw

 the ailerons have? I don't want anything very scientific like degrees

 or anything. Just maybe a measurement from the trailing edge of the

 aileron at full down deflection to the trailing edge of the flap with

 the flap in the full up position. I'm still nervous about my rubbing

 issue, and I'm nowhere near mounting the wings so that I can see if it

 really [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

I've been afflicted with a disease caused by my lack of a kit

to work on.  It's symptoms include laziness, apathy, weight

gain, and all sorts of nasty things, but on the upside, my

flying skills have improved because the disease causes a

high affinity to burning 100LL fuel.  Pretty soon I'll need

to get me a tail kit or something before it does some

permanent damage.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Rick wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 How come so many of us have asked before but now FINALLY an

 answer...AND you had to get your wife to do it!!!!  

 

 Rick S. 40185

 

 do not archive

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

To get true comparison you should now switch the ailerons to the opposite of where they are now and fly again.  I know it’s a lot of work, but just think of the great formation flying you will get to experience again, and for the benefit or all to boot.  

Do not archive  

Jesse Saint  

Saint Aviation, Inc.  

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)  

www.saintaviation.com  

Cell: 352-427-0285  

Fax: 815-377-3694  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

 Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:17 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons  

We have two stock RV-10's out at Watsonville, CA: one with ailerons set trailing edges faired on ground, and one trailing edges faired in cruise. The adjustments to get from the lower to higher position is one full rod end turn per aileron or approx 1/4". Noticed that the aircraft with ailerons adjusted to faired in cruise (higher) required that the lower leading edge of the aileron begins to dip into the airstream suggesting that this is the max upper limit. Formation flying was used to determine speed differences by setting same power, fuel flow, & RPM.  

Thinking about some very good input from others it would probably be wise to duct tape the elevators fair with the horizonal stab to create a proper origin and then set the ailerons. This would be best case for a forward CG (front seat occupants with little baggage) mission.  

We installed markers to help measure elevator vs horizontal stab difference, added tuffs to flaps, ailerons, and wingtips.   

Results were that in both cases the tuffs exitted the trailing edge parallel with the aileron chord. This would make sense since we were probably pitching the wing leading edge. The elevators were faired with the horizontal stabilizer in flight. And the RV10 with the upper aileron setting was "maybe 1 knot" faster.  

Our conclusion was the speed difference was too small to be significant and could have been due to other causes. If I were to experiment with this further I would try a setting that the forward underside of the aileron fairs smooth with the wing when the elevator is taped to the horizon stab. This is probably somewhere between the settings tested.  

Lessons learned:  

   1) Applying a lot of effort to aileron adjustment will probably not produce speed improvements.  

   2) Formation flying is great fun!  

Bill DeRouchey  

N939SB, flying  

billderou(at)yahoo.com (billderou(at)yahoo.com)  

 Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:  

  [quote]  

--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson 

 Chris,

 I think I have what you need. My wife was nice enough to drive

 out to the hanger and get the measurements because I've been too

 busy to get there. I had her measure from the tip of the

 aileron to the tip of the flap with the flaps up. The ailerons

 deflect upwards about 4" even, and they deflect downwards about 3"

 even. That should give you an idea of the total travel that you'll

 get. Sorry it took so long....darn wife, you know, she just didn't

 jump quick enough. When I say jump, I expect to hear "How High?".

 (Just kidding...and DO NOT ARCHIVE or I may find myself living

 at the hanger!) She's a good girl, that's for sure.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Chris Johnston wrote:

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston" 

 > 

 > Hey all - 

 > 

 > All this talk about ailerons has got me wondering if someone could

 > answer my previously (unanswered) question about how much downward throw

 > the ailerons have? I don't want anything very scientific like degrees

 > or anything. Just maybe a measurement from the trailing edge of the

 > aileron at full down deflection to the trailing edge of the flap with

 > the flap in the full up position. I'm still nervous about my rubbing

 > issue, and I'm nowhere near mounting the wings so that I can see if it

 > really    	  Quote: 	

[b]

moons1999(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

If you really need some treatment for that disease, you can come to Texas and work on mine.    Once mine is up, I'm sure that some others could also supply doses of the "treatment".

 

--Shawn

40366 - Wings

do not archive



---

MChase(at)gdatp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons

Tim, 

How about flying over to Vermont and working on my tailcone for a few hours and I will go flying for a change? 

Michael Chase 

 General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products

 802-657-6029 Office

 802-922-5930 Cell

 mchase(at)gdatp.com

 This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is private, confidential, or exempt from disclosure.  Any unauthorized review, use, copying, printing, disclosure, retention, or distribution is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply to this e-mail, and delete all copies without disclosing this message to others.  Thank you.

   Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>  

Sent by: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

03/22/2007 10:23 PM    Please respond to

 rv10-list(at)matronics.com

     To

 rv10-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Aileron Rigging Tip - Prevent Droopy Ailerons 

--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 I've been afflicted with a disease caused by my lack of a kit

 to work on.  It's symptoms include laziness, apathy, weight

 gain, and all sorts of nasty things, but on the upside, my

 flying skills have improved because the disease causes a

 high affinity to burning 100LL fuel.  Pretty soon I'll need

 to get me a tail kit or something before it does some

 permanent damage.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Rick wrote:

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>

 > 

 > How come so many of us have asked before but now FINALLY an

 > answer...AND you had to get your wife to do it!!!!  

 > 

 > Rick S. 40185

 > 

 > do not archive

 > 

 FORUMS -

 [quote][b]

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