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Drag Reduction

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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: Drag Reduction

Hello Lightning list,

   At this time I would like to ask for your opinions.  For about a years 

time now I've been trying to start into talks for a cooperative test flight 

evaluation of a new form of drag reduction.  The time has come where I have 

finally gotten a response.  This particular doctor has designed a form of 

drag reduction which he has proven on sailplanes.  So there's some good news 

and ?Bad? news:



First off the results showed up to a 27% reduction in profile drag of the 

aircraft!

2.  an increase in about 10-15% fuel savings estimated for a powered 

aircraft due to drag reduction

3.  This means an increase in range and endurance

4.  This also means better glide ratio and climb performance

5.  This could result in additional speed for those of you who wish to 

cruise closer to 200mph.



Now here's the drawback:



Who would venture to say that they'd spend the money for it.  For a Cirrus 

glider the dollar amount come to $2000 per plane.  Keep in mind that this 

technology has never yet been tested on powered aircraft.  The drag 

reduction "trend" says that it could be even greater than quoted above 

though.  I truly believe that this technology along with the gap seals and 

flap hinge fairings that I am presently working on would yield a 200 mph 

cruise speed.  I just can't say for sure though unless it was flight tested. 

  What would make it worth the cost to you?  What performance variables are 

most important to you?  Fuel consumption, cruise speed, range, endurance, 

climb, glide, etc?



I believe that this joint venture could be beneficial to both Arion Aircraft 

and to the Doctor that I mentioned above.  The flight tests could be 

independently verified for the Dr. and the Arion group could be the first to 

have this technology tested on a powered aircraft and offer another option 

of a cleanup kit.  It would also give Arion some recognition of publication 

in the form of AIAA technical reports.



Now keep in mind that the Lightning has a maneuvering speed well below 

200mph.  However, at altitude and in smooth air the airplane can be flown 

above Vma without any problems.  Even if you're not cruising at that speed 

though you'd notice that fuel reduction savings and the climb and all.



I have not yet talked to Pete or Nick yet about this.  I will have moved to 

Texas by the time anything could be arranged, but if there is interest, 

perhaps this could be pursued.  Think about it, and give me your ideas.  

Brian Whittingham



_________________________________________________________________

Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN 

Presents today. 

http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001

IFLYSMODEL(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: Drag Reduction

Hey Brian: I for one would be interested very much. I have not yet  purchased a Lightning, but hope to do so soon (I am trying to sell my Bonanza).  I have to get in touch with Pete/Nick and get a demo ride at Sun &  fun.

 Lynn Nelsen    do not archive

  



AOL now offersle="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" href="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" target="_blank">AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: Drag Reduction

Brian, I'm on board 100%. Sounds like you're on to

something.   Charles





--- Brian Whittingham <dashvii(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Whittingham" <dashvii(at)hotmail.com>

 

 Hello Lightning list,

    At this time I would like to ask for your

 opinions.  For about a years 

 time now I've been trying to start into talks for a

 cooperative test flight 

 evaluation of a new form of drag reduction.  The

 time has come where I have 

 finally gotten a response.  This particular doctor

 has designed a form of 

 drag reduction which he has proven on sailplanes. 

 So there's some good news 

 and ?Bad? news:

 

 First off the results showed up to a 27% reduction

 in profile drag of the 

 aircraft!

 2.  an increase in about 10-15% fuel savings

 estimated for a powered 

 aircraft due to drag reduction

 3.  This means an increase in range and endurance

 4.  This also means better glide ratio and climb

 performance

 5.  This could result in additional speed for those

 of you who wish to 

 cruise closer to 200mph.

 

 Now here's the drawback:

 

 Who would venture to say that they'd spend the money

 for it.  For a Cirrus 

 glider the dollar amount come to $2000 per plane. 

 Keep in mind that this 

 technology has never yet been tested on powered

 aircraft.  The drag 

 reduction "trend" says that it could be even greater

 than quoted above 

 though.  I truly believe that this technology along

 with the gap seals and 

 flap hinge fairings that I am presently working on

 would yield a 200 mph 

 cruise speed.  I just can't say for sure though

 unless it was flight tested. 

   What would make it worth the cost to you?  What

 performance variables are 

 most important to you?  Fuel consumption, cruise

 speed, range, endurance, 

 climb, glide, etc?

 

 I believe that this joint venture could be

 beneficial to both Arion Aircraft 

 and to the Doctor that I mentioned above.  The

 flight tests could be 

 independently verified for the Dr. and the Arion

 group could be the first to 

 have this technology tested on a powered aircraft

 and offer another option 

 of a cleanup kit.  It would also give Arion some

 recognition of publication 

 in the form of AIAA technical reports.

 

 Now keep in mind that the Lightning has a

 maneuvering speed well below 

 200mph.  However, at altitude and in smooth air the

 airplane can be flown 

 above Vma without any problems.  Even if you're not

 cruising at that speed 

 though you'd notice that fuel reduction savings and

 the climb and all.

 

 I have not yet talked to Pete or Nick yet about

 this.  I will have moved to 

 Texas by the time anything could be arranged, but if

 there is interest, 

 perhaps this could be pursued.  Think about it, and

 give me your ideas.  

 Brian Whittingham

 



_________________________________________________________________
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis

 and more. Visit MSN 

 Presents today. 



http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 



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 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List



 Web Forums!



 

 

 

 


	


 

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pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: Drag Reduction

Sounds great!  If I fit in the newer Lightning this Saturday, then I will be

placing my order too.



Jim!

--- Brian Whittingham <dashvii(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Whittingham" <dashvii(at)hotmail.com>

 

 Hello Lightning list,

    At this time I would like to ask for your

 opinions.  For about a years 

 time now I've been trying to start into talks for a

 cooperative test flight 

 evaluation of a new form of drag reduction.  The

 time has come where I have 

 finally gotten a response.  This particular doctor

 has designed a form of 

 drag reduction which he has proven on sailplanes. 

 So there's some good news 

 and ?Bad? news:

 

 First off the results showed up to a 27% reduction

 in profile drag of the 

 aircraft!

 2.  an increase in about 10-15% fuel savings

 estimated for a powered 

 aircraft due to drag reduction

 3.  This means an increase in range and endurance

 4.  This also means better glide ratio and climb

 performance

 5.  This could result in additional speed for those

 of you who wish to 

 cruise closer to 200mph.

 

 Now here's the drawback:

 

 Who would venture to say that they'd spend the money

 for it.  For a Cirrus 

 glider the dollar amount come to $2000 per plane. 

 Keep in mind that this 

 technology has never yet been tested on powered

 aircraft.  The drag 

 reduction "trend" says that it could be even greater

 than quoted above 

 though.  I truly believe that this technology along

 with the gap seals and 

 flap hinge fairings that I am presently working on

 would yield a 200 mph 

 cruise speed.  I just can't say for sure though

 unless it was flight tested. 

   What would make it worth the cost to you?  What

 performance variables are 

 most important to you?  Fuel consumption, cruise

 speed, range, endurance, 

 climb, glide, etc?

 

 I believe that this joint venture could be

 beneficial to both Arion Aircraft 

 and to the Doctor that I mentioned above.  The

 flight tests could be 

 independently verified for the Dr. and the Arion

 group could be the first to 

 have this technology tested on a powered aircraft

 and offer another option 

 of a cleanup kit.  It would also give Arion some

 recognition of publication 

 in the form of AIAA technical reports.

 

 Now keep in mind that the Lightning has a

 maneuvering speed well below 

 200mph.  However, at altitude and in smooth air the

 airplane can be flown 

 above Vma without any problems.  Even if you're not

 cruising at that speed 

 though you'd notice that fuel reduction savings and

 the climb and all.

 

 I have not yet talked to Pete or Nick yet about

 this.  I will have moved to 

 Texas by the time anything could be arranged, but if

 there is interest, 

 perhaps this could be pursued.  Think about it, and

 give me your ideas.  

 Brian Whittingham

 



_________________________________________________________________
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis

 and more. Visit MSN 

 Presents today. 



http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List



 Web Forums!



 

 

 

 


	


 

No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go 

with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: Drag Reduction

Lightning List,

   I'll talk to Nick and Pete about it.  I have the personal contact info 

for this inventor.  It really is beyond my understanding how it works, but 

the results are impressive.  I'm all about efficiency, and I don't know how 

this would effect the plane, but I'm thinking you could get some pretty 

crazy performance like 160mph on 3.5 gph or something.  The plane really is 

impressive once you have a chance to fly it and verify the stats are for 

real, but I would love to see the Lightning blow the competition away and 

become one of these legendary type of aircraft.  The type that people are in 

awe and disbelief of the performance, but is verified by 100's or 1000's of 

customers.  Like I said, I won't be around to see a new round of testing 

through for this project, but if I can get something in the works I'll be 

following the progress.  I believe this type of drag reduction, since it's 

never been used on a powered aircraft, along with a composite body, glass 

cockpit, high laminar flow wing, etc. really would be considered cutting 

edge technology.



I have no idea how the performance will change, but know there would be a 

big L/D change and that's exciting.  It took me about a year to get the guy 

to respond, but he finally did and is interested.  Should be interesting.  

Brian W.

From: "Brian Whittingham" <dashvii(at)hotmail.com>

Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Drag Reduction

Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:44:35 -0500




<dashvii(at)hotmail.com>



Hello Lightning list,

   At this time I would like to ask for your opinions.  For about a years 

time now I've been trying to start into talks for a cooperative test flight 

evaluation of a new form of drag reduction.  The time has come where I have 

finally gotten a response.  This particular doctor has designed a form of 

drag reduction which he has proven on sailplanes.  So there's some good news 

and ?Bad? news:



First off the results showed up to a 27% reduction in profile drag of the 

aircraft!

2.  an increase in about 10-15% fuel savings estimated for a powered 

aircraft due to drag reduction

3.  This means an increase in range and endurance

4.  This also means better glide ratio and climb performance

5.  This could result in additional speed for those of you who wish to 

cruise closer to 200mph.



Now here's the drawback:



Who would venture to say that they'd spend the money for it.  For a Cirrus 

glider the dollar amount come to $2000 per plane.  Keep in mind that this 

technology has never yet been tested on powered aircraft.  The drag 

reduction "trend" says that it could be even greater than quoted above 

though.  I truly believe that this technology along with the gap seals and 

flap hinge fairings that I am presently working on would yield a 200 mph 

cruise speed.  I just can't say for sure though unless it was flight tested. 

  What would make it worth the cost to you?  What performance variables are 

most important to you?  Fuel consumption, cruise speed, range, endurance, 

climb, glide, etc?



I believe that this joint venture could be beneficial to both Arion Aircraft 

and to the Doctor that I mentioned above.  The flight tests could be 

independently verified for the Dr. and the Arion group could be the first to 

have this technology tested on a powered aircraft and offer another option 

of a cleanup kit.  It would also give Arion some recognition of publication 

in the form of AIAA technical reports.



Now keep in mind that the Lightning has a maneuvering speed well below 

200mph.  However, at altitude and in smooth air the airplane can be flown 

above Vma without any problems.  Even if you're not cruising at that speed 

though you'd notice that fuel reduction savings and the climb and all.



I have not yet talked to Pete or Nick yet about this.  I will have moved to 

Texas by the time anything could be arranged, but if there is interest, 

perhaps this could be pursued.  Think about it, and give me your ideas.  

Brian Whittingham



_________________________________________________________________

Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN 

Presents today. 

http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001



_________________________________________________________________

Live Search Maps – find all the local information you need, right when you 

need it. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag2&FORM=MGAC01

zcrj90(at)yahoo.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: Drag reduction

Brian, this is a really interesting intiative. I think given the investment that is made in the likes of the lightning and similar aircraft the amounts you are talking about are small beer. The kinda folk who are interested in the Esqual and now the lightning all love a 'go faster stripe' and a real tweak that does that will be a must have for most. Speed is always good though the increased efficiency at cruise will be the real benefit in fuel dollars and wear and tear.

  

 I fly a Jabiru at the moment and it galls me that there's been no development in the aerodynamics when it come to drag. Its a great little plane but it may as well have a anchor hanging out the back for the thought that's gone into making it slippery.

  

 When I finally finish my Esqual I'll have a fiddle with the Jab, there are some no brainers that need doing and will watch with great interest any developments that  you share with us.

  

 Thanks for all the other info you post, good to read your informative flight tests. 

  

 Regards, Clive (in UK)

 		  Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/trueswitch/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/trueswitch2.html]Do it now...[/url] [quote][b]

Scotty

Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Peachtree City, GA

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: Re: Drag Reduction

Pete, Nick, and Brian,



2 questions:



1.  Since there would be (minor or major?) modifications to the airframe, could the plane be restored to original if the slick mod did not work as advertised?



2.  Would it be a good idea, for us, the buyers, and benefactors of this mod to contribute enough money for the mod to be made to the test plane at Shelbyville?  I would kick in for the project, and I am still in the deciding stage.  



This would definitely make me a purchaser if it worked.



Scotty

pete(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:20 am Post subject: Drag Reduction

Once we find out what these "slick mods" are we might be able to make an

intelligent decision as to the cost / benefits of these mods.



Right now we don't have anything to go on.



Pete



--

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:26 am Post subject: Drag Reduction

Scotty,

   The device that I'm talking about is removable, at least unless you 

wanted to move them.  There has to be testing for where they need to be 

located on the wing.  I believe in previous testing with sailplanes they 

found that if they were installed on top and bottom of the wing it was best. 

  Testing would mean moving them around, doing oil flow experiments to see 

where the seperation occured etc.  So, yes, it could be made removable.



The idea behind the good doctor's idea was that where the airflow becomes 

turbulent, is similar to sound waves that have peaks and valleys.  He then 

thought about how we now have white noise generators for sound which emits 

the equal and opposite sound and cancels it out.  So by mounting his devices 

a little behind where the boundary layer becomes turbulent, he set up a 

completely passive device that will basically vibrate at the opposite 

frequency and amplitude, which dampens out the rolling effect that you see 

with drag.  It doesn't keep the boundary layer attached, but simply dampens 

out where it wants to seperate, reducing drag in that area.  Active boundary 

layer controls (through tiny holes in the wings, either sucking or blowing 

air along the surfaces) has found huge gains in efficiency by keeping the 

boundary layer more laminar further back along the wings.



I have followed his research since before there was any test data and I was 

extremely skeptical.  However, with pictures and technical reports published 

in peer reviewed journals, and people inviting him to do big talks at 

aerodynamics convensions, along with the test data that he took on 

sailplanes has made me a believer.  It is a complete unknown what will 

happen at speeds closer to 200mph on a plane with an engine.  Really the 

wing doesn't know that there's an engine out there, but the fact that we'd 

be going at least 50% faster than the test gliders makes a big difference.  

I'm anxious to see what Nick and Pete say and see if we can get the doctor 

to come up.  Brian W.

From: "Scotty" <mr.scotty(at)earthlink.net>

Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Drag Reduction

Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 05:49:51 -0700






Pete, Nick, and Brian,



2 questions:



1.  Since there would be (minor or major?) modifications to the airframe, 

could the plane be restored to original if the slick mod did not work as 

advertised?



2.  Would it be a good idea, for us, the buyers, and benefactors of this mod 

to contribute enough money for the mod to be made to the test plane at 

Shelbyville?  I would kick in for the project, and I am still in the 

deciding stage.



This would definitely make me a purchaser if it worked.



Scotty



--------

Old pilots remember when flying was dangerous and sex was safe.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102988#102988

_________________________________________________________________

5.5%* 30 year fixed mortgage rate. Good credit refinance. Up to 5 free 

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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: Drag Reduction

Sounds like a "poor man's" BLC (boundry layer  control) like we had on the F-4.  It only came on when the flaps /  slats were down / out, but did help reduce stall speed in the landing  configuration by helping to keep the airflow attached.  I suspect he is  using some sort of "turbulator tape" installed span wise on the wings to achieve  the same effect.  It will probably lower the stall speed AND decrease the  drag at top end therefore resulting in a higher cruise speed or same cruise  speed at less power.  Should be a win / win  situation.      

     Brian, I left a roll of one type of this tape with  Nick when I was there last fall.  It was in the box with the gap seal  material roll.  There are several types of turbulator tape - the one I left  was more for use in front of control surfaces to make them more effective - such  as rudder, elevator, and ailerons.  For you golfers out there, it  apparently is the same principal that makes dimples on golf balls the best  design.  

 Blue Skies,

 Buz



AOL now offers fr="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" href="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" target="_blank">AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: Drag Reduction

In a message dated 3/26/2007 9:21:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  pete(at)flylightning.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Lightning-List message posted by: "Pete"    <pete(at)flylightning.net>



Once we find out what these "slick mods"    are we might be able to make an

intelligent decision as to the cost /    benefits of these mods.



Right now we don't have anything to go    on.



Pete

	


 

  

 I suppose I must throw some sufficiently chilled H2O upon the flames.

  

 I think it is significant that the drag reductions being discussed were   achieved  at low speed; glider speeds.  Airflow at higher speeds  takes on a different density as I understand it.  

  

 Look at it another way.  If the major plastic airframe  manufacturers,  Cirrus, Columbia, etc COULD achieve sufficient speed  increases, they would have done it.   From my reading of  Kent  Paser's book, the Lightning could only be refined slightly to achieve some speed  increases, in the neighborhood of 5-10 mph.

  

 I do understand that Brian thinks differently.  I wish him all the  best.  I would love to be proven wrong.  But since the days of Jim  Bede, to John Monnet, etc, there are some who claim the moon in terms of speed  but it only seems to occur when they measure it.

  

 Bert Rutan is given credit for building efficient airplanes, but I  discovered the Whitman Tailwind was just as fast as a Long Eze of the same  horsepower.   I am building one of his early designs, the  Buttercup.  It was capable of 140 mph with an 85 hp engine....and was built  in 1937!    

  

 I am all for improvements.  But as Kent Paser noted,  once you  have made some of the major cleanups, allof which the Lightning has,  the  next few MPH come slowly and at a much greater cost.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg



AOL  at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: Drag Reduction

Doug,

   As I stated before, I have no idea what the particular change that I 

mentioned would do.  I would hope in an increase in efficiency, but without 

doing the flight testing, we have no way of knowing.  The particular type of 

technology that I mentioned has only been invented recently.  I won't say 

here what exactly the modification is, but it is a different approach to 

aerodynamics I can assure you.  Also, I had suggested that the guys at Arion 

could do the flight testing, with the devices in place to INDEPENDENTLY 

verify the results.  That way if it did or did not work, we'd know, before 

it was ever offered to any customer.  Obviously if it doesn't it isn't a 

product that you'd want to offer to customers.



I'm not coming from the point of view of an owner trying to make my own 

plane faster.  I don't own a Lightning.  I'm not coming from the background 

of the Arion guys.  I'm not trying to sale planes or parts.  I am simply 

coming from a background of research.  Now part of that means that I am 

coming into this unbiased on whether it would work or not.  Sure, I'd be 

impressed if it did, but from a research standpoint it's almost as exciting 

if it does not, and figuring out why it does not.  I just wanted to see if 

this guy did want to test on a Lightning and if it did turn out to 

positively effect performance, would it even be something that people 

wanted, and what do people want in performance.  I could go out and design a 

new Concord, but there's no market for it, so it's not feasible.  I'm 

interested to see one of these devices in real life and see if it is durable 

enough to be considered feasable.  The F16 with boundary layer control (big 

suction device and 1000's of tiny holes drilled into the wing) turned out to 

be extremely effective and impressive, but is totally not feasible as bugs 

would plug up the holes.



One thing that I know for certain, you can't say it won't work, unless you 

test it and verify that it doesn't.  Brian W.

From: Kayberg(at)aol.com

Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Drag Reduction

Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:28:40 EDT

In a message dated 3/26/2007 9:21:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

pete(at)flylightning.net writes:






Once we find out what these "slick mods"  are we might be able to make an

intelligent decision as to the cost /  benefits of these mods.



Right now we don't have anything to go  on.



Pete





I suppose I must throw some sufficiently chilled H2O upon the flames.



I think it is significant that the drag reductions being discussed were

achieved  at low speed; glider speeds.  Airflow at higher speeds  takes on a

different density as I understand it.



Look at it another way.  If the major plastic airframe  manufacturers,

Cirrus, Columbia, etc COULD achieve sufficient speed  increases, they would 

have

done it.   From my reading of  Kent  Paser's book, the Lightning could only 

be

refined slightly to achieve some speed  increases, in the neighborhood of 

5-10

mph.



I do understand that Brian thinks differently.  I wish him all the  best.  I

would love to be proven wrong.  But since the days of Jim  Bede, to John

Monnet, etc, there are some who claim the moon in terms of speed  but it 

only seems

to occur when they measure it.



Bert Rutan is given credit for building efficient airplanes, but I

discovered the Whitman Tailwind was just as fast as a Long Eze of the same  

horsepower.

   I am building one of his early designs, the  Buttercup.  It was capable 

of

140 mph with an 85 hp engine....and was built  in 1937!



I am all for improvements.  But as Kent Paser noted,  once you  have made

some of the major cleanups, allof which the Lightning has,  the  next few 

MPH

come slowly and at a much greater cost.



Doug Koenigsberg



_________________________________________________________________

It’s tax season, make sure to follow these few simple tips 

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMMartagline

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: Drag Reduction

Doug,

   I would actually hope more for efficiency than speed.  Speed will come 

with efficiency, but things like fuel burn, range, and endurance are what I 

like.  You know, you could do XXX Mph, but if you do XXX - 20mph you'll save 

maybe 2.5 Gph fuel burn, or whatever that might be, and still get the lower 

fuel burn at the previous speed.  Yes, I do realize the faster you go the 

more it takes to make a plane go faster.  Brian W.

From: Kayberg(at)aol.com

Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Drag Reduction

Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:28:40 EDT

In a message dated 3/26/2007 9:21:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

pete(at)flylightning.net writes:






Once we find out what these "slick mods"  are we might be able to make an

intelligent decision as to the cost /  benefits of these mods.



Right now we don't have anything to go  on.



Pete





I suppose I must throw some sufficiently chilled H2O upon the flames.



I think it is significant that the drag reductions being discussed were

achieved  at low speed; glider speeds.  Airflow at higher speeds  takes on a

different density as I understand it.



Look at it another way.  If the major plastic airframe  manufacturers,

Cirrus, Columbia, etc COULD achieve sufficient speed  increases, they would 

have

done it.   From my reading of  Kent  Paser's book, the Lightning could only 

be

refined slightly to achieve some speed  increases, in the neighborhood of 

5-10

mph.



I do understand that Brian thinks differently.  I wish him all the  best.  I

would love to be proven wrong.  But since the days of Jim  Bede, to John

Monnet, etc, there are some who claim the moon in terms of speed  but it 

only seems

to occur when they measure it.



Bert Rutan is given credit for building efficient airplanes, but I

discovered the Whitman Tailwind was just as fast as a Long Eze of the same  

horsepower.

   I am building one of his early designs, the  Buttercup.  It was capable 

of

140 mph with an 85 hp engine....and was built  in 1937!



I am all for improvements.  But as Kent Paser noted,  once you  have made

some of the major cleanups, allof which the Lightning has,  the  next few 

MPH

come slowly and at a much greater cost.



Doug Koenigsberg



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Scotty

Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Peachtree City, GA

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Drag Reduction

It is cliche to say, but people used to swear no one would ever fly in a heavier than air machine.  Now look at us, right in our own garage.



I have a friend who is in the aerospace research department at Ga. Tech.  They are testing in a wind tunnel a helicopter type machine that is directionally controlled by sound waves.  I have questioned him two or three times trying to understand the physics, but it is WAY WAY over my head.  He talks and it goes into the PFM realm very quickly.  



Keep pushing Brian.  The door will open someday, by you or someone else.



Scotty

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: Drag Reduction

Thanks for the vote of confidence Scotty.  I by no means suggest that I 

fully understand anything about flying.  I have got several people from 

Middle Tennessee State University aerospace department helping me out, and a 

guy from the Penn State aerospace dept. helping me out with my gap seal and 

hinge fairing experiment.  I'm like you on the next wave of drag reduction, 

can't say I understand it at all.  Another good reason for testing.  If I 

can see results, I don't have to necessarily understand it to realize what 

the results are saying.  Brian W.

From: "Scotty" <mr.scotty(at)earthlink.net>

Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Drag Reduction

Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:43:18 -0700






It is cliche to say, but people used to swear no one would ever fly in a 

heavier than air machine.  Now look at us, right in our own garage.



I have a friend who is in the aerospace research department at Ga. Tech.  

They are testing in a wind tunnel a helicopter type machine that is 

directionally controlled by sound waves.  I have questioned him two or three 

times trying to understand the physics, but it is WAY WAY over my head.  He 

talks and it goes into the PFM realm very quickly.



Keep pushing Brian.  The door will open someday, by you or someone else.



Scotty



--------

Old pilots remember when flying was dangerous and sex was safe.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103064#103064

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vettin74(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: Drag Reduction

If you leave the plane out in a hail storm the entire airframe will be like a golf ball and ought to go faster right? the resulting backspin will reduce torque and p-factor effects too. 

   

  Disclaimer: leaving aircraft in hail storm may result in other undesired results...

   

  Nick



N1BZRich(at)aol.com wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		          Sounds like a "poor man's" BLC (boundry layer control) like we had on the F-4.  It only came on when the flaps / slats were down / out, but did help reduce stall speed in the landing configuration by helping to keep the airflow attached.  I suspect he is using some sort of "turbulator tape" installed span wise on the wings to achieve  the same effect.  It will probably lower the stall speed AND decrease the drag at top end therefore resulting in a higher cruise speed or same cruise speed at less power.  Should be a win / win situation.      

      Brian, I left a roll of one type of this tape with Nick when I was there last fall.  It was in the box with the gap seal material roll.  There are several types of turbulator tape - the one I left was more for use in front of control surfaces to make them more effective - such as rudder, elevator, and ailerons.  For you golfers out there, it apparently is the same principal that makes dimples on golf balls the best design.  

  Blue Skies,

  Buz



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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: Drag Reduction

In a message dated 3/27/2007 7:17:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  vettin74(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     If you leave the plane out in a hail storm the entire airframe will be    like a golf ball and ought to go faster right? the resulting backspin will    reduce torque and p-factor effects too. 

	


 

 Hey, great idea.  You might also want to try that hail storm idea on  one of your Corvettes.  Should help you with top speed and better cornering  during your next auto cross or gymkanna. 

 Just my $.02, your mileage may vary.

 Buz



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  [quote][b]

vettin74(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:41 am Post subject: Drag Reduction

i don't think it would work don't go fast enough on the ground to make a differance...

   

  Nick



N1BZRich(at)aol.com wrote:

  [quote]      In a message dated 3/27/2007 7:17:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vettin74(at)yahoo.com writes:

   	  Quote: 	
		    If you leave the plane out in a hail storm the entire airframe will be like a golf ball and ought to go faster right? the resulting backspin will reduce torque and p-factor effects too. 

	


  

  Hey, great idea.  You might also want to try that hail storm idea on one  No need to miss a message. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ]Get email on-the-go [/url]

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