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Is there a DAR "standard"?

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Jim Combs

Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:53 am Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

The DAR that I use, wants to inspect the engine and flight controls. His request is to have completed a condition inspection and be "Ready for First flight".  He want to have at least one hour of taxi time too.  He will look at the engine closely for proper building practices along with moving all controls and checking for proper control gap clearances.  Safety is his primary concern.

 

It's only a hour or so to button up the aircraft for the first flight anyway.



That's my experience.



Jim C

N312F - 400+ hours

  [quote][b]

_________________
RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:54 am Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

That was my experience too.  His main focus's were:



1) Flight controls free and correct?

2) All proper placarding?

3) Did the engine start and run well?

4) Did the engine and other instrumentation work properly with

	the engine on?

5) Did the engine compartment look good? Throttle and

	control linkages? No cable ties on engine mounts?

	

That was the most of it. He just looked in general at the

construction (he had also seen my website), and saw that

it was well constructed in general, so he was most concerned

with the things that would most easy take your life.

I expected more, also, so had my panels all open and

everything, but it wasn't really his goal, and although

I appreciate a good inspection, I felt OK with how it

went...especially since I had gotten prior EAA Tech

counselor visits.  I think if you get 3 of those, they

feel much more comfortable on the DAR inspection also.



Tim



On 11/26/2012 9:41 AM, hotwheels wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>



 I listened closely stories of DAR inspections where the focus was on

 mirror / flashlight and compliance with ADs/SBs. So in anticipation,

 I removed all the access panels and most of the interior to allow

 easy access to view and inspect. Then the DAR showed up and asked why

 my plane wasn't "flight ready". He wasn't interested in much past a

 close look at the engine. He also wanted me to start the engine and

 taxi and to demonstrate that the instrumentation is working. Has

 anyone read the latest Air & Space? They have a write up of the DAR

 process and it reads closer to the mirror / flashlight inspection

 rather than focus on paperwork.



 Is my experience unique? Have FAA DAR standards / focus changed due

 to recent NTSB reports perhaps?



 Regards, Jay





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388964#388964

Jim Combs

Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

One other comment.  I would highly encourage any builder to have at least three other

builders inspect their airplane just prior to the DAR inspection.  Its amazing how many

items can be found that way.



There are just too many things that one can look at and never see anything wrong with.

 A different person will look and immediately see an issue.  We all seem to have different 

views of "our work".  Its way too easy to look at the same part repeatedly and just not see

a problem.    



 I know of several builders that have encouraged others to review the airplane and have found

issues that needed to be addressed.  It's the safe thing to do.  



Jim Combs  



  [quote][b]

_________________
RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

Jay,   



It's not my intent to be critical, but sounds like a basic communication issue.  I'm working with FSDO on my inspection and we've already had that conversation.   After hearing stories about the variances in inspections, I point blank ask the inspector what was his expectations.   He was very clear and articulate on his response. I suspect most DARs would be to.  



I'm curious as to what his response was.  Did he sign off or did he make you pay for another trip after you reassemble everything?



I'm fortunate in that I live in an area where the FSDO inspectors have a great relationship with the experimental community and do perform more thorough inspections although they aren't required to perform them.   I'm in the camp that you can't have enough eyes review you work. 



Bob



Sent from my iPhone



On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:41 AM, "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com> wrote:






I listened closely stories of DAR inspections where the focus was on mirror / flashlight and compliance with ADs/SBs. So in anticipation, I removed all the access panels and most of the interior to allow easy access to view and inspect. Then the DAR showed up and asked why my plane wasn't "flight ready". He wasn't interested in much past a close look at the engine. He also wanted me to start the engine and taxi and to demonstrate that the instrumentation is working. Has anyone read the latest Air & Space? They have a write up of the DAR process and it reads closer to the mirror / flashlight inspection rather than focus on paperwork.



Is my experience unique? Have FAA DAR standards / focus changed due to recent NTSB reports perhaps? 



Regards,

Jay





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388964#388964

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

rv10flyer(at)live.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

Jay;

I have heard of your level of inspections. (Fortunately) my DAR, who 

happened to be the TC along the way, expected EVERY panel removed, he knew 

the plane very well as a result of serving as my Technical Counselor, yet 

still wanted to inspect everything. My inspection went over 2 hours, he 

looked at every wire harness, crawled into the tail to verify everything was 

secure etc. I KNEW my plane was ready but after that inspection there was no 

doubt on that first flight. Anyone who grabs a flashlight and says you're 

ready is basically doing a semi Annual inspection and a disservice to you- 

ask around and get a good DAR- one who built a RV preferably and knows what 

to look for in RV's.

Must be me however, since I also spent 3-4 hours at my FSDO doing a 

dissertation on why I am qualified for a repairman's cert.  There are some 

locally that had a quick DAR inspection, got a huge flyoff area and the FSDO 

asked to see a picture or two and if the person "certified" they built more 

than 51% and 15 minutes later they had the temp repairman's cert.

It really is up to the individual DAR and your local FSDO how it will work 

out for you.

Best of success



--

hotwheels

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 240

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Is there a DAR "standard"?

No extra charge for the DAR return trip. Fortunately for me, I've been the lucky recipient of numerous EAA Tech Counselor visits and help from fellow builders, but it would have been nice to use a person that was more technically thorough. With regards to the communication between builder and DAR... It sounds like your mileage may vary, so it's important to keep asking questions to set equal expectations for the visit. 



Jay

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:47 am Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

This will be of no help...but I worked with my DAR ahead of time.  What he

wanted to see was..



1.  Airplane ready to be signed off

2.  Engine had been run

3.  All access panels off...which in an -10 means the inside is all apart

4.  I asked and he said it was ok that I had the doors off.



His inspection was not very thorough, but I did have an A&P/IA there for the

inspection.  Somebody he knew.  



He took pictures of all the things he looked at...



Rene' Felker

N423CF

801-721-6080



--

rv10flyer(at)live.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:34 am Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

I've attached what my DAR gave me before he showed up. It was the checklist 

he would use. Regardless of what the DAR does, you can use this for your own 

reference and prep.

--

DAR_Inspection_Checklist_03-18-2011.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

DAR_Inspection_Checklist_03-18-2011.pdf

Filesize:

15.07 KB

Downloaded:

310 Time(s)

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:46 am Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

I have had and observed probably 10 DAR inspections and they are all different. In my experience, most of them focus on the paperwork. I have only seen one say that he can't sign off a plane that is not assembled, and that was because the plane had a leading edge landing light and the lens wasn't installed. The plane can't fly without the cowl installed, but I can't imagine he wanted to have that on. You can fly with the access panels inside the plane off, but not the panels outside. It seems like different DAR's have different pet peeves. Some want everything labeled on the panel. Some couldn't care less what is labeled. Some want to see the panel lit up and some don't. Some look into an inspection plate to see the rivets and some don't. Some are really picky about the engine and some just verify that it has a propeller attached. Some check controls to see if they are correct and hit the stops, some don't even look at them. I have had all of them say that they would like the engine to have run and the plane to have done a taxi test before the inspection, but have never had one ask to see the engine run. I guess it's pretty hard to fly without having the engine running. Most want to see some placard on the fuel tanks. Usually, as others have said, it was paperwork. Some just say, "well, it looks like a plane to me. Do you think it will fly? Let's fill out the paperwork." I have never ever had one ask about AD's or SB's. 



In short, YMWV.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

C: 352-427-0285

F: 815-377-3694



On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:41 AM, hotwheels <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I listened closely stories of DAR inspections where the focus was on mirror / flashlight and compliance with ADs/SBs. So in anticipation, I removed all the access panels and most of the interior to allow easy access to view and inspect. Then the DAR showed up and asked why my plane wasn't "flight ready". He wasn't interested in much past a close look at the engine. He also wanted me to start the engine and taxi and to demonstrate that the instrumentation is working. Has anyone read the latest Air & Space? They have a write up of the DAR process and it reads closer to the mirror / flashlight inspection rather than focus on paperwork.

 

 Is my experience unique? Have FAA DAR standards / focus changed due to recent NTSB reports perhaps? 

 

 Regards,

 Jay

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388964#388964

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

In retrospect, it is pretty clear to me that "it all depends".



Talking to the DAR, it was pretty clear that his goal was to make one 

visit and to approve the project if at all possible.  The focus on 

paperwork is an absolute prereq to achieving that goal. I'd definitely 

ask the DAR beforehand exactly what they'd like to see and how things 

should be set up.



I had worked with a TC and did the final assembly in a maintenance 

hangar with an AP/AI working nearby.  My guess is that the DAR asked 

around for some pre-assessment from the TC and/or mechanic. I'm sure no 

red flags were raised so the DAR was focused on successful approval.



I had everything opened up and he was prepared with mirrors and lights.  

After an hour or so he seemed to conclude (correctly) that everything 

had been gone over in detail, by several different people, so he stopped 

trying to look at "everything" and instead focused on the paperwork and 

legalities.



Getting the repairman cert at the FSDO was interesting.  The inspector I 

scheduled with wasn't around and no one was expecting me. Knowing 

nothing about me or the plane, the inspector chatted me up while 

browsing the docs.   It was very challenging because I couldn't figure 

out where the questions were coming from.   At some point, he concluded 

that I did do the 51% and issued the certificate.



In the end, I would just recommend talking to the DAR and/or FSDO person 

beforehand.  Build some rapport if you can but at least find out what 

they want to see and do.  In my estimation, if there's a single 

"standard", it's not in wide use.



Go Jay!!

Bill Watson



On 11/26/2012 10:41 AM, hotwheels wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I listened closely stories of DAR inspections where the focus was on mirror / flashlight and compliance with ADs/SBs. So in anticipation, I removed all the access panels and most of the interior to allow easy access to view and inspect. Then the DAR showed up and asked why my plane wasn't "flight ready". He wasn't interested in much past a close look at the engine. He also wanted me to start the engine and taxi and to demonstrate that the instrumentation is working. Has anyone read the latest Air & Space? They have a write up of the DAR process and it reads closer to the mirror / flashlight inspection rather than focus on paperwork.



 Is my experience unique? Have FAA DAR standards / focus changed due to recent NTSB reports perhaps?



 Regards,

 Jay

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:58 am Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

My DAR charged about the same for a single visit as described earlier.



However, I was lucky enough to get the thorough going over by a very 

experienced TC.  He had been monitoring my build with a roughly annual 

visit.  He's an airpark neighbor but apparently came to the conclusion 

that my building process was fine and his assistance was needed only on 

request.



My TC strongly suggested that test flying take place on a hard surface 

runway with off field options.  I took that advice, assembled at remote 

airport, and prepared to fly.  My TC, previously a man of few words and 

limited action, showed up several times for the W&B work, a thorough 

mirror and flashlight inspection and to supervise engine setup.  In 

other words, the important stuff.



This is exactly what I needed.  **Dirty Laundry Alert** He found one 

critical problem during his inspection - untorqued fuel fittings.  

Apparently, years ago, I hand tightened the entire fuel system with the 

intent of torquing down all the fittings later. At the point he found 

one loose fitting, he grabbed some wrenches and dove into the innards to 

check every single fuel fitting.  A potential life saver.   The engine 

setup was much needed as well because I didn't have a clue as to what to do.



Anyway, I'm writing all this just to reiterate the importance of the 

pre-first flight inspections.  Your DAR may or may not focus on them to 

the extent needed (my DAR would not have found this given his inspection 

- but he may have known of my TC inspection - I'll never know).  Unless 

you are an experienced mechanic, some expert hands and eyes are 

required.  If you are an experienced mechanic, you will probably get 

some other expert hands and eyes anyway.



Bill

do not archive

On 11/28/2012 8:02 AM, Eric_Kallio wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 When I went through I had a very proactive DAR who wanted to make 3 visits. He charged me somewhere around $400 total and came out after I made contact with him to make first contact  and talk with me about the process, look at the project, discuss what he was looking for, and he provided me with a packet of paperwork that would need to be completed before it was all said and done. On his second visit everything was opened up and he performed his flashlight and mirror inspection. He provided me with 3 lists of notes. One was a list of things that must be fixed before he would sign off (fortunately I had none). The second list were things that should be addressed no later than the next annual. Finally were just some notes. Eventually he came for a third visit where I had to start the engine and he verified the avionics and instruments came alive and that the engine and the nav/strobe/landing lights were functioning. It was a long process and he performed more than what he sai!

   d was required of a DAR, but by the time I first flew the plane had been thoroughly looked over.



 Eric

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:37 am Post subject: Is there a DAR "standard"?

When I built my Pitts S-1E in the late 70's my DAR was the Piper (Vero 

Beach is close by) inspector.  He came up for the 'pre-cover' inspection 

which we had to do back then, and Looked at the log books I had laid out 

on a table.  He looked across the hangar and said 'I only see one wing' 

.... and I pointed out that the lower wings were behind the top wing.  

OK.  Tail feathers over there ..... and signed the logbooks and left.



Final inspection day the airplane was pulled out in front of the hangar, 

ready to fly and the books were on the table.  He said 'looks nice', 

signed the logs and then we had this conversation: "You really didn't 

look it over very hard."  "Don't need to.  It looks like a Pitts and the 

rigging looks right ..... and it ought to fly OK."



So the next day I flew the first flight with no squawks, landed and was 

pushing the Pitts back into the hangar when I noticed the jam nuts on 

the tail brace wires weren't tight .... far from it.  And the 

landing/flying wires .... same thing.  A lot of people had looked at the 

airplane and nobody noticed the loose jam nuts .... including me.



Don't remember what he charged (if anything) but I would have welcomed a 

little closer inspection, just for my own peace of mind.



Linn

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