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Greasers.

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stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject: Greasers.

After more than a year with the 520 and over 100hrs on her, I still have to admit that I find my landings more on the firm and squeaky side, than greasers. I normally approach at 80-90 and try to cross the threshold at 80kts. The other day I took her down to 70kts for the approach and did two really nice greasy ones, but then could not replicate it for the next slow approach. I'm starting to think that I flare either a touch too high, or cut the power to soon. I've tried the opposite of that as well, but still can't seem to whisk her on.



What am I missing? What is your bulletproof technique for the older short wings?

_________________
Adam

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject: Greasers.

I never cut power On the 500 until I hear the squeak of the mains. I believe the touchdown speed is lower and braking is a rare occasion. 

It works on the Seneca and Twin Comanche, too.

Sent from my Samsung Epicâ„¢ 4G 



stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> wrote:

--> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>



After more than a year with the 520 and over 100hrs on her, I still have to admit that I find my landings more on the firm and squeaky side, than greasers. I normally approach at 80-90 and try to cross the threshold at 80kts. The other day I took her down to 70 for the approach and did two really nice greasy ones, but then could not replicate it for the next slow approach. I'm starting to think that I flare either a touch to high, or cut the power to soon.



What am I missing? What is your technique for the older short wings?



--------

Adam





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368088#368088



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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:40 am Post subject: Greasers.

I suggest working on aligning the aircraft with the direction of travel down  

the runway.  Sounds elementary but many pilots look over the center of the  

nose rather than a point on the nose offset the same distance from the  

centerline as the seat. If you don't the tire will scrub and put extra drag  

on the strut making a harder landing. Or always land on wet, icy or grass  

runways.



Bill Leff



Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid



-----Original message-----

From: stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, Mar 10, 2012 02:42:20 GMT+00:00

Subject: Greasers.






After more than a year with the 520 and over 100hrs on her, I still have to  

admit that I find my landings more on the firm and squeaky side, than  

greasers. I normally approach at 80-90 and try to cross the threshold at  

80kts. The other day I took her down to 70 for the approach and did two  

really nice greasy ones, but then could not replicate it for the next slow  

approach. I'm starting to think that I flare either a touch to high, or cut  

the power to soon.



What am I missing? What is your technique for the older short wings?



--------

Adam





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368088#368088

dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:37 am Post subject: Greasers.

I support Nico's actions.

  

 It took me forever to "smooth landing" the 500S.  I finally figured to leave power on until the wheels touched.  I figured it was due to landing a 5000+ lb. aircraft as opposed to a 25-3500lb. machine.

  

 Don



 

   From: stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Fri, March 9, 2012 9:41:42 PM

Subject: Greasers.



--> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)>



After more than a year with the 520 and over 100hrs on her, I still have to admit that I find my landings more on the firm and squeaky side, than greasers. I normally approach at 80-90 and try to cross the threshold at 80kts. The other day I took her down to 70 for the approach and did two really nice greasy ones, but then could not replicate it for the next slow approach. I'm starting to think that I flare either a touch to high, or cut the  power to soon.



What am I missing? What is your technique for the older short wings?



--------

Adam





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368088#3=          - The Commander-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Com= Same great content also bsp;                     ==================

 [quote][b]

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: Greasers.

It works even on lighter aircraft. I love to do it in a Cessna 150. I reason that with turbo charged engines, keeping the turbines spooled up, reduces turbo rush when sudden power is needed to abort a landing. With the older Ray Jay turbos, it was very easy to overboost the engines, resulting in some distraction of the pilot from flying duties while watching the manifold pressure during a go-around. I figured that very few of us are Bob Hoovers, so it is a technique that ham-fisted pilots like me use, to make things smooth and perhaps even safer. And the pax are impressed, too.   

   

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donald Falik

 Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:37 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Greasers.  

  

  

       

I support Nico's actions.  

    

   

    

It took me forever to "smooth landing" the 500S.  I finally figured to leave power on until the wheels touched.  I figured it was due to landing a 5000+ lb. aircraft as opposed to a 25-3500lb. machine.  

    

   

    

Don  

    

         

  

From: stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Fri, March 9, 2012 9:41:42 PM

 Subject: Greasers.

 

 --> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)>

 

 After more than a year with the 520 and over 100hrs on her, I still have to admit that I find my landings more on the firm and squeaky side, than greasers. I normally approach at 80-90 and try to cross the threshold at 80kts. The other day I took her down to 70 for the approach and did two really nice greasy ones, but then could not replicate it for the next slow approach. I'm starting to think that I flare either a touch to high, or cut the power to soon.

 

 What am I missing? What is your technique for the older short wings?

 

 --------

 Adam

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368088#3=          - The Commander-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Com= Same great content also bsp;                     ==================

 

 

   

  

  

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        [quote][b]

dongirod

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: Greasers.

Adam;



I agree with all the others advice.



Just like the drunk upon being asked, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall? 

Replied, Practice Man, Practice"



With geared engines I have always been told 'do not pull the power off until 

on the runway'.  I think that is pretty well true of all geared engines 

whether in a recip or a turbo prop or in a turbo jet, always keeps positive 

thrust until touchdown.   And some airplanes just land a little firmer, most 

any airplane with "auto spoilers" land firm unless the runway is wet, just 

think of it this way, now you know when to apply brakes as you don't have an 

air/ground sensor.



The old airline joke is most passengers don't even know if they have had a 

good trip until they land.



Unlike Dan Farmer, Eastern didn't wait until after I left, but I still don't 

take any responsibility for managements actions.    Guess that give Dan 

Farmer and Jim Addington bragging rights.



BUT!  You airline type's might appreciate this joke I just got:

                                          The flight attendant listened 

patiently to the manâ€™s complaints:



                                          â€œYou bring me cold coffee.



                                          You serve me lousy food. I canâ€™t 

see the movie.



                                         Not that it matters because you 

didnâ€™t bring me any headphones.



                                         And my window doesnâ€™t even have a 

shade, so I canâ€™t sleep.â€



                                        When heâ€™d finally stopped whining, 

she said,

                                        â€œJust shut up and fly the plane!â€

God Bless, Don



--

stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:09 am Post subject: Re: Greasers.

I'll try keeping a bit of power until touchdown next time. I've been cutting it just before the flare and it kind of works sometimes and doesn't the next.



What I did learn the hard way very early on, is to not cut it too early. Boy, two of the worst carrier landings I've done were due to that.

_________________
Adam

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: Greasers.

Depending on one's style, one can hold the flare until a high deck angle is

achieved making the touch-down speed real low, thus saving on tires and

brakes. A few inches above the runway is about the only place where one

would want to be in this configuration. 

After a bit of practice it is possible to transition into this configuration

in one fluid motion, land on the numbers, hold the nose off the ground for a

while and roll to the first exit without applying brakes.





--

tylorhall(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject: Greasers.

When I lived in Kansas City, I would watch the A/C from Central Air land back at Downtown airport on the mains and hold the nose wheel off for over 500' down the runway until it had to come down.  They seem to do it to show off a little.  Two or three aircraft would land and each was trying to keep the nose wheel off longer that the one before him.

These were 500B's and these were flown 5-6 days a week hauling boxes all over the midwest.

Tylor Hall

On Mar 11, 2012, at 6:27 PM, cybersuperstore wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Depending on one's style, one can hold the flare until a high deck angle is

 achieved making the touch-down speed real low, thus saving on tires and

 brakes. A few inches above the runway is about the only place where one

 would want to be in this configuration. 

 After a bit of practice it is possible to transition into this configuration

 in one fluid motion, land on the numbers, hold the nose off the ground for a

 while and roll to the first exit without applying brakes.

 

 

 

 

 --

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: Greasers.

I suppose this technique would not work on a T-Tail plane, because I would

imagine that the propwash is crucial in keeping the nose wheel off the

tarmac. 



Incidentally, power in the flare is required for a STOL-equipped Cessna 210

(perhaps other models, too; it's that I have some hours in one), which are

landed below a regular 210's stalling speed, because once the propwash is

removed from the tail, it stalls immediately slamming the nose wheel into

the ground, damaging the firewall, because the nose strut is mounted on the

firewall. I believe in extreme cases (like cutting power too high off the

runway) it would result in a prop-strike, too. 



I like the power on ...

--

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:07 am Post subject: Greasers.

Good Morning Tylor,

  

 Maybe they were just doing what their boss told them to do?

  

 Aerodynamic braking is a very potent force often encouraged by the operator  to save wear and tear on the brakes. The ability of the pilot to hold the nose  in the air is dependent on elevator authority. As a general rule, the closer the  CG is to the rear limit, the stronger the elevator authority. 

  

 The outfit I once worked for encouraged us to take advantage  of aerodynamic braking whenever practical, but to be careful that we  lowered the nose wheel to the ground while we still had control rather than just  letting it drop when the elevator lost it's punch.

  

 As always, technique is the key to success.

  

 Been a very long time since I last flew an Aero Commander, but the memories  are pleasant.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Downers Grove, Illinois

  

  In a message dated 3/11/2012 9:30:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  tylorhall(at)mac.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Commander-List message posted by: Tylor Hall    <tylorhall(at)mac.com>



When I lived in Kansas City, I would watch    the A/C from Central Air land back at Downtown airport on the mains and hold    the nose wheel off for over 500' down the runway until it had to come    down.  They seem to do it to show off a little.  Two or three    aircraft would land and each was trying to keep the nose wheel off longer that    the one before him.

These were 500B's and these were flown 5-6 days a week    hauling boxes all over the midwest.

Tylor Hall

On Mar 11, 2012,    at 6:27 PM, cybersuperstore wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Commander-List message    posted by: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>

 

    Depending on one's style, one can hold the flare until a high deck angle    is

 achieved making the touch-down speed real low, thus saving on tires    and

 brakes. A few inches above the runway is about the only place    where one

 would want to be in this configuration. 

 After a bit    of practice it is possible to transition into this configuration

 in    one fluid motion, land on the numbers, hold the nose off the ground for    a

 while and roll to the first exit without applying brakes.

    

	

	


 [quote][b]

stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Greasers.

One of the service bulletins from back in the day is that huge big counterweight on the elevator controls. This makes the 520 rather heavy in controls. My instrument instructor always gives me crap for flying her with two hands, says only girls do that;)



But this is part of the landing problem, I think. The controls are heavy enough that I don't feel I have enough control doing it with just one hand. So this means I have to pretty much cut the power just before the final flare and transfer my hand to the control. To compound the problem, I'm now running in a new top on the R/H engine, so am trying to avoid landings altogether...

_________________
Adam

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