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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:31 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
012
3
4 |
[quote][b]
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white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.c
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Old Bob,
I believe in the LOP process, but need to dial in the flow per cylinder first for this pair of engines. The right just runs rough LOP so I have a ways to go. GAMI was willing to take on my IGO-540's, just have no experience with them yet. At 22 inches and 2600 rpm, I still burn 19 gph on the left and 22 gph on the right. Both servos and distributors were overhauled by the same outfit, and the injectors are all new. The left just needs cylinder #2 injector slightly smaller. The right is defying tuning. Going to have to pull the right servo and distributor and send it back. Then start all over! Had to do that on the left to get it right. It's just no fun as it's mighty crowded in there.
All part of the joy of an old plane, new engines, and prior owners who just didn't keep the ol gal up to snuff. Overall the list is getting shorter every day and and I can use 747H safely and reliably now.
Fun flying,
Craig
From: "BobsV35B(at)aol.com" <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sun, April 18, 2010 5:27:50 AM
Subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
012
3
4 |
5
[quote][b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:39 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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|
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
012
3
4 |
5 |
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:19 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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|
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: |
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: |
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution |
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| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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|
BillLeff1(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for
it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
|
Can you elaborate on that statement Bill? Given that LOP results in
lower temps and pressures, I can't see where the extra material comes
into play.
thanks
chris
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moe-rosspistons(at)hotmai
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
|
|
Nico,
Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: cybersuperstore (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: |
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: |
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
012345678 |
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LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> HI BILL, FUEL TO AIR MIXTURE IS IDEAL FOR COMBUSTION AT 15 TO 1 (FOUND AT ROP). ONCE YOU GO LOP YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD THROTLE TO GET THE SAME ENGINE POWER AS ROP BECAUSE YOU ARE BELOW THE IDEAL IS A 15 TO 1 AIR TO FUEL RATIO AT ROP.I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAVE FUEL USING THE SAME POWER (PERFORMANCE.THEREFORE .AIR SPEED ) LOP VS ROP.
THERE ARE OTHER ENGINE LIFE CONSIDERATONS.
I HOPE I HAV'NT CONFUSED ALL THE MANY HERESAY REASONS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A CENTURY, .
LLOYD
[quote] ---
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Good Evening Bill,
I guess if you have that much experience with your engines and are happy with what you have there is no need to change.
And I agree, operating at high power and Peak EGT is rarely a good idea. If that is what the Commander folks recommend, I am surprised. Fifty rich of peak EGT is about the hottest spot you could operate.
Personally, if I wanted to use seventy-five percent power or more, I would run more like 150 to 200 rich of peak EGT. Once again, all of this assumes good distribution, if the distribution is poor 150 to 200 rich is the better compromise, but it ain't good!
However, any engine can be operated lean of peak if it has well balanced fuel distribution. There are limits and there are conditions. There is absolutely nothing about a Pratt and Whitney or a Curtiss Wright that makes them capable of lean operations other than they have the means to get an even distribution of fuel to each cylinder.
I have not ran any of the large geared Lycomings for many years, but they told us then and tell us now that we can't hurt the engine with the mixture control, so I always felt comfortable experimenting. When I found that I had good distribution, I would often run on the lean side of best power. If the power available was adequate for my needs, it not only saved fuel, but the engines ran cooler and cleaner just like those Curtiss Wright engineers said they would. Same thing goes for any engine. There is no magic and this information is not new. Lindbergh used it and it worked well for him.
What is wrong with running cleaner and cooler?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/21/2010 6:40:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, BillLeff1(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
012
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Good Evening Lloyd,
The 15 (Some folks say 16) to one ratio is the stoichiometric mixture, No excess air and no excess fuel.
If we run richer than stoichiometric, that is by definition on the rich side, If we run leaner than stoichiometric, that is, by definition on the lean side.
You will get the same speed at the same horsepower if you are rich of peak EGT or lean of peak EGT. As you state, it will require more manifold pressure to get the same horsepower LOP as ROP so in that case you are correct.
However, It is possible under many conditions to get that same horsepower at a different BSFC. The key to economical operation is to be able to operate at or very close to Best BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) Best BSFC is where all of the fuel that is being supplied has plenty of air to combine with and there is extra air to be heated and provide more power per pound of fuel.If we want to get the most power we can for each molecule of oxygen available, we need to throw enough fuel at the fire such that every last little bit of air gets burned. That is called Best Power. At best power, we are burning a lot more fuel per horsepower than we would be if we were running on the lean side of best power.
For most modern light plane engines, best BSFC occurs somewhere between twenty degrees Fahrenheit lean of Peak EGT and eighty Degrees lean of peak EGT, The higher powers require the greatest amount lean, but the engine may not be able to provide that power due to cooling needs, At power settings of 65 per cent or so, best BSFC is close to thirty degrees F lean of peak EGT.
There is no one size fits all answer. You have to decide what it is you want from the engine. If you wish to use high horsepower (above 65 to 70 percent power, you need to throw a LOT of fuel on the fire or the engine will get hot. There are exceptions, but that is good ball park starting point.
As Always, It All Depends. Life is NOT simple.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/21/2010 9:56:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time, LLOYDSSS11(at)msn.com writes:
[quote] HI BILL, FUEL TO AIR MIXTURE IS IDEAL FOR COMBUSTION AT 15 TO 1 (FOUND AT ROP). ONCE YOU GO LOP YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD THROTLE TO GET THE SAME ENGINE POWER AS ROP BECAUSE YOU ARE BELOW THE IDEAL IS A 15 TO 1 AIR TO FUEL RATIO AT ROP.I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAVE FUEL USING THE SAME POWER (PERFORMANCE.THEREFORE .AIR SPEED ) LOP VS ROP.
THERE ARE OTHER ENGINE LIFE CONSIDERATONS.
I HOPE I HAV'NT CONFUSED ALL THE MANY HERESAY REASONS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A CENTURY, .
LLOYD
[quote] ---
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cloudcraft(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP.
When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs.
They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas.
The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP.
Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
--
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white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.c
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:22 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IGO-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distributor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhauls. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the method... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP methodology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford!
Craig
From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 10:00:21 PM
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP.
When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs.
They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas.
The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP.
Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
--
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cloudcraft(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:41 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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| Quote: | | Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. |
You're not doing partial power take-offs, are you? That can cause some of the damage you're describing by not allowing the enrichening schedule of the fuel flow at high throttle settings. Or, if you're pushing the levers all the way up, the fuel scheduling for high power settings may not be set and you're running too lean at take-off.
It's already been mentioned in this thread that you may have valve problems on the side that has to run RoP.
I should probable sit here with my mouth shut and sit on my hands ... I've been operating Garrett 731 engines so long that I've forgotten just about everything I ever knew about piston engines. It's nice to have someone else pay for the operating cost of an engine controlled by a computer.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
--
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white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.c
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:48 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> Nope. Full power. Full rich. Just watch CHT to keep it below 400. I fly in southern CA so I watch temps closely.Craig
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&TFrom: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 01:34:50 -0400
To: <commander-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
| Quote: | | Fa= ilures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also=20 noted. |
You're not doing partial power take-offs,= are you? That can cause some of the damage you're describing= by not allowing the enrichening schedule of the fuel flow at high throttl= e settings. Or, if you're pushing the levers all the way up,= the fuel scheduling for high power settings may not be set and you're run= ning too lean at take-off.
It's already been mentioned in this thread that you may have valve problem= s on the side that has to run RoP.
I should probable sit here with my mouth shut and sit on my hands ... I've= been operating Garrett 731 engines so long that I've forgotten just about= everything I ever knew about piston engines. It's nice to have some= one else pay for the operating cost of an engine controlled by a computer.=
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple an= ywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
--
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:07 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Good Morning Craig,
Just remember that 25 to 50 ROP EGT is just about e hottest place you can run your engine.
If you are seeing heat related problems, it will be from running too close to that hot spot. If you have poor distribution you want to run a LOT richer to make sure the leanest cylinder is rich enough to avoid that hot spot.
If the distribution is perfect, you can run leaner than peak and run cleaner and cooler Cleaner and cooler makes for a longer lived engine. Most engine heat related damage comes from the engine running too lean at takeoff and other high power regimes.
If you do not feel comfortable running lean, be sure you run rich enough to avoid that hot spot located fifty degrees on the rich side. At any power above 65 percent, fifty rich is the worst place you can operate.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/22/2010 12:23:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IGO-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distributor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhauls. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the method... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP methodology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford!
Craig
|
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KenWHyde(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:15 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's??
Thanks,
Ken
[quote][b]
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:49 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Good Morning Ken,
The principles apply equally to all internal combustion engines from lawn mower engines to Turbo Compound marvels.
The devil is in the details. If you have good fuel distribution whose fire is lit efficiently, LOP works very well. If there are distribution or ignition problems, an over rich mixture may allow suitable operations at the expense of wasting fuel and running dirty.
The first order of business is always the same. Find out how good is the fuel distribution and check as to how well the fire is lit.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/22/2010 8:15:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's??
Thanks,
Ken
|
[quote][b]
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KenWHyde(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:42 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Thanks Bob,
I have the Gami's & JPI but have not had the time to really play with it on the Commander. Spent few years on the 1049G, DC-7, DC-6's and it was SOP. Went to the Lycoming school...they are not happy people about Gami or LOP.
Ken
In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:49:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Good Morning Ken,
The principles apply equally to all internal combustion engines from lawn mower engines to Turbo Compound marvels.
The devil is in the details. If you have good fuel distribution whose fire is lit efficiently, LOP works very well. If there are distribution or ignition problems, an over rich mixture may allow suitable operations at the expense of wasting fuel and running dirty.
The first order of business is always the same. Find out how good is the fuel distribution and check as to how well the fire is lit.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/22/2010 8:15:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's??
Thanks,
Ken
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t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
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tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.c
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:03 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Old Bob,
I lumped a few things together there. I don't operate any engine at that heat point. This was what I found when I took the engines apart 2 years ago. I had not operated them, but had just purchased the plane. The left failed 2.5 hours into the ferry flight home. The right was in worse condition, just hadn't failed yet. I won't go into the mythical pre-purchase inspection and extensive annual allegedly performed which had not really been done. After rebuilding, I added the multi-probe EGT/CHT, FF, etc., to let me know what was really happening. We flow checked each nozzle to confirm. I run ROP now until I can get the flows closer together. I'll keep the 50 degree ROP hotspot in mind!
Thanks for the help!
Craig
From: "BobsV35B(at)aol.com" <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 4:47:08 AM
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Good Morning Craig,
Just remember that 25 to 50 ROP EGT is just about e hottest place you can run your engine.
If you are seeing heat related problems, it will be from running too close to that hot spot. If you have poor distribution you want to run a LOT richer to make sure the leanest cylinder is rich enough to avoid that hot spot.
If the distribution is perfect, you can run leaner than peak and run cleaner and cooler Cleaner and cooler makes for a longer lived engine. Most engine heat related damage comes from the engine running too lean at takeoff and other high power regimes.
If you do not feel comfortable running lean, be sure you run rich enough to avoid that hot spot located fifty degrees on the rich side. At any power above 65 percent, fifty rich is the worst place you can operate.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/22/2010 12:23:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IGO-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distributor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhauls. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the method... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP methodology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford!
Craig
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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Nico, the Radial engine heads are beefier. By the way, an IGSO-540-B1A uses a single fuel injector in the supercharger housing. The individual lines going to the cylinders are primer lines. It is impossible to put GAMI injectors on that engine. Lycoming has had a tradition of cracking cyl heads on many models. The same engine on the Queen Air ( IGSO-540-A1A ) uses a Bendix fuel servo but still uses a single injector.
The problem is BMEP because of the low compression and high manifold pressures. There is no way to monitor BMEP on this engine.
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/21/2010 8:20:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
| Quote: |
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: |
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: |
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
012345678 |
9012345678http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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75% power on a IGSO is not recommended. However as you indicated above 75% 150-200 rich is mandatory. On the IGO 540 I use 50 deg rich, on the IGSO I use 100 deg, rich.
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 12:25:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Good Evening Bill,
I guess if you have that much experience with your engines and are happy with what you have there is no need to change.
And I agree, operating at high power and Peak EGT is rarely a good idea. If that is what the Commander folks recommend, I am surprised. Fifty rich of peak EGT is about the hottest spot you could operate.
Personally, if I wanted to use seventy-five percent power or more, I would run more like 150 to 200 rich of peak EGT. Once again, all of this assumes good distribution, if the distribution is poor 150 to 200 rich is the better compromise, but it ain't good!
However, any engine can be operated lean of peak if it has well balanced fuel distribution. There are limits and there are conditions. There is absolutely nothing about a Pratt and Whitney or a Curtiss Wright that makes them capable of lean operations other than they have the means to get an even distribution of fuel to each cylinder.
I have not ran any of the large geared Lycomings for many years, but they told us then and tell us now that we can't hurt the engine with the mixture control, so I always felt comfortable experimenting. When I found that I had good distribution, I would often run on the lean side of best power. If the power available was adequate for my needs, it not only saved fuel, but the engines ran cooler and cleaner just like those Curtiss Wright engineers said they would. Same thing goes for any engine. There is no magic and this information is not new. Lindbergh used it and it worked well for him.
What is wrong with running cleaner and cooler?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/21/2010 6:40:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, BillLeff1(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
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