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O-235 Plug Fouling?
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DwightFrye



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:46 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and
we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we
have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every
25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of
other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,
etc.).

In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs
and would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so
bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In
the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the
plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not
firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs
were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought
I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the
nasty state of the plugs.

One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick
mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where
our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging
I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going
downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that
possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we
are having so much trouble?

At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on
us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in
flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply
full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn
lean for ground ops.

As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already
intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I
hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month
if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?

-- Dwight


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:39 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Here you go.......
http://www.decalinchemicals.com/fueladditive.html


Scott
RV-8a



From: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 7:23:53 AM
Subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

--> Engines-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)>

I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and
we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we
have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every
25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of
other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,
etc.).

In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs
and would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so
bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In
the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the
plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not
firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs
were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought
I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the
nasty state of the plugs.

One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick
mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where
our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging
I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going
downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that
possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we
are having so much trouble?

At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on
us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in
flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply
full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn
lean for ground ops.

As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already
intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I
hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month
if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?
[quote][b]


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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:12 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

My best guess is you are right in the mags getting a bit on the weak side.
I think this may be a place for a lead scavenger (Decathelon?). But I'd
start off with 1/10th the normal dosage and gradually increase it until the
lead fouling is reduced enough to give you the 25 hr between oil changes.

You also may consider installing an oil filter.

One other idea that was mentioned to me at one time was to add a detergent
to the oil about 1 hr before an oil change and be sure to drain the oil hot.
That will get out all the old sludge which may be part of your problem.

One other thing I just thought of is the primer sometimes doesn't lock down
properly and causes the engine to run way too rich. Check the primer to
make sure it doesn't leak when locked down.

Noel

--


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DwightFrye



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Noel (and Scott in another reply),

Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but
unfortunately they say right from the start :

Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of
certified aircraft ...

So no good for the Citabria. That is a pity, because it sure seems to
make sense. I'd love to install an oil filter, but honestly I'll not
be a partner in this plane much longer because I'm getting fairly close
to completing an RV-7. Also, my partners have not been all that excited
when I brought up the idea of adding an aftermarket oil filter in the
past. I'm glad to hear you think the mags might be a contributor to the
problem, because that is something we already HAVE to change. Smile

Checking the primer is a good idea. I'll add that to the list of things
to do. In some other google-driven research I've seen the following
suggestions :

* Idle at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) for better
scavenging of the cylinder
* Do a plug-clean style runup (2000RPM, and lean very
agressively for a few moments) at the start and end
of every flight.
* Lean almost to the point of roughness for taxi (which
we already do)
* Shut down at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) than the
usual 1000RPM to help avoid lead condensing out
during the shutdown operation

Tomorrow night I'm headed out to do a plug cleaning and confirm
whether the latest rough running was lead or not. Given what we have
experienced lately I'm sure it will prove to be the culprit.

-- Dwight

On Wed Apr 21 15:10:40 2010, Noel Loveys wrote :
[quote]


My best guess is you are right in the mags getting a bit on the weak side.
I think this may be a place for a lead scavenger (Decathelon?). But I'd
start off with 1/10th the normal dosage and gradually increase it until the
lead fouling is reduced enough to give you the 25 hr between oil changes.

You also may consider installing an oil filter.

One other idea that was mentioned to me at one time was to add a detergent
to the oil about 1 hr before an oil change and be sure to drain the oil hot.
That will get out all the old sludge which may be part of your problem.

One other thing I just thought of is the primer sometimes doesn't lock down
properly and causes the engine to run way too rich. Check the primer to
make sure it doesn't leak when locked down.

Noel

--


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:46 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

A guaranteed solution to fouled plugs that won't change your operating procedures is running mogas.  Saves a half hour at annual when you don't have to get a pick to dig at TEL in your lower plugs.  Saves you $2/gal so it'll pay for itself in ~20 hours.
 
I think the investment would be <$200; find your airframe and powerplant.
 
Petersen:
0-235-C, -C1, -C1B, -E1, -E1B, -C1C, -C1A, -H2C, -C2A, -C2B, -E2A, -E2B, -L2A*, -L2C*, -M1*, -M2C*, -M3C*, -N2A*, -N2C*, -P1*, -P2A*, -P2C*, -P3C*
7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7AC, S7AC, 7BCM, 7CCM, 7DC, S7DC, S7CCM, 7EC, S7EC, 7FC, 7GC, (Aeronca) 7HC, 7GCA, 7JC, 7GCB, 7KC, 7GCBA, 7ECA, 8GCBC

Todd

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)> wrote:
[quote]--> Engines-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)>

Noel (and Scott in another reply),

Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but
unfortunately they say right from the start :

       Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of
       certified aircraft ...

So no good for the Citabria. That is a pity, because it sure seems to
make sense. I'd love to install an oil filter, but honestly I'll not
be a partner in this plane much longer because I'm getting fairly close
to completing an RV-7. Also, my partners have not been all that excited
when I brought up the idea of adding an aftermarket oil filter in the
past. I'm glad to hear you think the mags might be a contributor to the
problem, because that is something we already HAVE to change. Smile

Checking the primer is a good idea. I'll add that to the list of things
to do. In some other google-driven research I've seen the following
suggestions :

       * Idle at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) for better
         scavenging of the cylinder
       * Do a plug-clean style runup (2000RPM, and lean very
         agressively for a few moments) at the start and end
         of every flight.
       * Lean almost to the point of roughness for taxi (which
         we already do)
       * Shut down at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) than the
         usual 1000RPM to help avoid lead condensing out
         during the shutdown operation

Tomorrow night I'm headed out to do a plug cleaning and confirm
whether the latest rough running was lead or not. Given what we have
experienced lately I'm sure it will prove to be the culprit.

 -- Dwight

[b]


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Dwight:

You did not say what plugs you are using? I would suggest REM37BY
they have an extended electrode and that improves the spark and makes
it difficult to foul.

Also - Have you:
1 - Checked the GAP of the spark plug?
2 - Check for carbon traces inside the plug tower?
3 - Checked for spring tension of the wires?
4 - Checked for OIL puddling in the cylinders?
5 - Checked the cylinder compression?
6 - Checked for carbon traces under the Mag Cap?
7 - Checked for spring tension under the Mag Cap?
8 - Checked for carbon traces inside the Mag tower?
9 - Checked for proper torque of the plugs?
10 - Checked for a snug fit of the plug wire nut / to spark plug?

Question: How are the Mags hooked up... Does one Mag fire the bottom
plugs and the other fire the top? Or does one Mag fire Half the Top
and Half the Bottom?

Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
=============================================
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org> wrote:
Quote:


I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and
we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we
have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every
25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of
other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,
etc.).

In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs
and would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so
bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In
the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the
plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not
firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs
were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought
I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the
nasty state of the plugs.

One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick
mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where
our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging
I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going
downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that
possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we
are having so much trouble?

At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on
us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in
flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply
full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn
lean for ground ops.

As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already
intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I
hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month
if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?

 -- Dwight



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DwightFrye



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Lots of good suggestions ... and questions. Thanks guys. I'm going
to just answer this e-mail but will references some other comments
as well.

First, I need to double-check the plugs used. I'll find out when I
go out to the airport tomorrow night. If we aren't using the REM37BY
plugs we'll move to them at annual in a month.

Regarding the suggestion to move to MOGAS, that had come to mind and
we are fortunate in that the Citabria's previous owner purcahsed the
STC. The challenge is transporting MOGAS (and finding some in our
area without alcohol, for that matter). But it is getting tempting
to work out a solution to the MOGAS transport problem.

I'll intersperse other comments in Barry's comments/questions ....

On Wed Apr 21 18:18:07 2010, FLYaDIVE wrote :
Quote:
Dwight:

You did not say what plugs you are using? I would suggest REM37BY
they have an extended electrode and that improves the spark and makes
it difficult to foul.

Also - Have you:
1 - Checked the GAP of the spark plug?

Yes, but it has been some time. We should check again right now.

Quote:
2 - Check for carbon traces inside the plug tower?

We have, and have found none. Just chunks of lead.

Quote:
3 - Checked for spring tension of the wires?

I'm unfamilar with this, so could you give me a little more
detail?

Quote:
4 - Checked for OIL puddling in the cylinders?

No. We'll do it.

Quote:
5 - Checked the cylinder compression?

Yes, but it was at the last annual (and was quite good at that
point in time). It'll be checked again in a month.

Quote:
6 - Checked for carbon traces under the Mag Cap?

No. That said, the mags are going to be replaced in a month.

Quote:
7 - Checked for spring tension under the Mag Cap?

No.

Quote:
8 - Checked for carbon traces inside the Mag tower?

No.

In short, we have not yet checked the internal state of the mags
at all within the last handful of months (which is the time where
we have seen the bad spike in lead fouling).

Quote:
9 - Checked for proper torque of the plugs?

Yes. We clean and re-torque at _least_ every 25 hours, and more
often when we have a fouling incident.

Quote:
10 - Checked for a snug fit of the plug wire nut / to spark plug?

Yes.

Quote:
Question: How are the Mags hooked up... Does one Mag fire the bottom
plugs and the other fire the top? Or does one Mag fire Half the Top
and Half the Bottom?

I believe it is half-and-half, but should double check. I'll do
that tomorrow night.

This is all good information, and I appreciate folks chiming in to
help me assess the problem. And to be clear (if you are wondering
why I've been so slack .. *grin*) this problem has been growing
gradually, and has only reached a fever pitch within the last two
or three months. Frankly, it is only in the last *month* that we
have really started to think we need to dig deeper. Again, thanks
for all the input!

-- Dwight


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:41 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Hi Dwight,
Owned a 73-7ECA with a O-235 for a number of years.
First I would not go leaning the engine during taxi - your future is
looking at scored cylinders and Big $$$$.
Your problem is not carbon but lead from the 100 low lead aviation
fuel. (Never could figure out why they call it low lead.)

When you shut down, push the RPM up some (1600), leave the throttle
in that position, then pull the mixture to the cut off position. It
will blow much of the molten lead out of the engine exhaust.

You can also use ALCOR TCP fuel treatment if you can find it. We used
that in our fuel. Do a search on Google and learn about it. It's
small $ but when you consider wasting a cylinder to two, that's
nothing. If you use it, you will see a difference. Be careful
pulling plugs as often as your are (25-Hrs), use anti-seizure on the
threads and use a calibrated torque wrench to tighten them with so
you don't pull threads or crack a cylinder. I think if your use the
TCP and the shut down process as I described above you will not need
to pull the plugs every 25 hours.
jerb


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:51 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

I have previously run Mo-Gas in our Citabria back in early-mid 90's - 73-7ECA O-235.

The results were this - increased maintenance on items which the gas touched - Fuel Cap seals more than once, fuel selector packing & o-rings, carb rebuild, as it began leaking. Money saved - none.
jerb


At 02:45 PM 4/21/2010, you wrote:
[quote]A guaranteed solution to fouled plugs that won't change your operating procedures is running mogas. Saves a half hour at annual when you don't have to get a pick to dig at TEL in your lower plugs. Saves you $2/gal so it'll pay for itself in ~20 hours.

I think the investment would be <$200; find your airframe and powerplant.

Petersen:
0-235-C, -C1, -C1B, -E1, -E1B, -C1C, -C1A, -H2C, -C2A, -C2B, -E2A, -E2B, -L2A*, -L2C*, -M1*, -M2C*, -M3C*, -N2A*, -N2C*, -P1*, -P2A*, -P2C*, -P3C*
7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7AC, S7AC, 7BCM, 7CCM, 7DC, S7DC, S7CCM, 7EC, S7EC, 7FC, 7GC, (Aeronca) 7HC, 7GCA, 7JC, 7GCB, 7KC, 7GCBA, 7ECA, 8GCBC
Todd


On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)> wrote:
--> Engines-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)>

Noel (and Scott in another reply),

Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but
unfortunately they say right from the start :

Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of
certified aircraft ...

So no good for the Citabria. That is a pity, because it sure seems to
make sense. I'd love to install an oil filter, but honestly I'll not
be a partner in this plane much longer because I'm getting fairly close
to completing an RV-7. Also, my partners have not been all that excited
when I brought up the idea of adding an aftermarket oil filter in the
past. I'm glad to hear you think the mags might be a contributor to the
problem, because that is something we already HAVE to change. Smile

Checking the primer is a good idea. I'll add that to the list of things
to do. In some other google-driven research I've seen the following
suggestions :

* Idle at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) for better
scavenging of the cylinder
* Do a plug-clean style runup (2000RPM, and lean very
agressively for a few moments) at the start and end
of every flight.
* Lean almost to the point of roughness for taxi (which
we already do)
* Shut down at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) than the
usual 1000RPM to help avoid lead condensing out
during the shutdown operation

Tomorrow night I'm headed out to do a plug cleaning and confirm
whether the latest rough running was lead or not. Given what we have
experienced lately I'm sure it will prove to be the culprit.

-- Dwight


[b]


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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Not true at all. Leaning aggressively with the O-235 is standard
practice in all C152s since they first came out. It will NOT harm the
cylinders. 1000-1200rpm to taxi, as lean as it will take, to the point
of stumbling if you add any throttle. It both raises the combustion
temperature enough to keep the lead compounds from condensing on the
plugs, and eliminates carbon build up. Sounds like you have been
listening to old wive's tales and anecdotal evidence, which has no
real data behind it.
KM
A&P/IA

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 4:41 PM, jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> wrote:
Quote:


Hi Dwight,
Owned a 73-7ECA with a O-235 for a number of years.
First I would not go leaning the engine during taxi - your future is looking
at scored cylinders and Big $$$$.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

You can find mogas airports at airnav.com and there is the list of gas
stations that pump pure gasolene at pure-gas.org. There are six states
that mandate no booze in premium fuel. Here in S. Ontario (Canada) I've
never found booze in any premium gas either - so far...
It is very easy to test for alcohol.
Ken
(350 lead free hours)

Dwight Frye wrote:
Quote:
Regarding the suggestion to move to MOGAS, that had come to mind and
we are fortunate in that the Citabria's previous owner purcahsed the
STC. The challenge is transporting MOGAS (and finding some in our
area without alcohol, for that matter). But it is getting tempting
to work out a solution to the MOGAS transport problem.



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:13 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Mogas is one of those things; I’ve had absolutely no problems with thousands of gallons run through an O-300. Maybe that’s the difference and that’s the only engine I’ve run with mogas. I bet fouling wasn’t one of your problems?

Todd



I have previously run Mo-Gas in our Citabria back in early-mid 90's - 73-7ECA O-235.

The results were this - increased maintenance on items which the gas touched - Fuel Cap seals more than once, fuel selector packing & o-rings, carb rebuild, as it began leaking. Money saved - none.
jerb



[quote] [b]


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flyadive(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Hello Dwight and Jerb:

LEANING WHILE TAXING IS A VERY GOOD THING.

You should lean so much that the engine almost dies. You will NEVER
score the cylinders due to leaning. The reason being is your percent
(%) of power is so extremely low - About 20 to 30% that there is
minimal heat produces and almost NO load on the engine.

NOW! The thing is to LEAN very aggressively so much so that if you
forgot to push the throttle in for take off - The engine would die of
fuel starvation second after being applied.

Barry
"Chop'd Liver"

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:41 PM, jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> wrote:
Quote:


Hi Dwight,
Owned a 73-7ECA with a O-235 for a number of years.
First I would not go leaning the engine during taxi - your future is looking
at scored cylinders and Big $$$$.
Your problem is not carbon but lead from the 100 low lead aviation fuel.
 (Never could figure out why they call it low lead.)

When you shut down,  push the RPM up some (1600), leave the throttle in that
position, then pull the mixture to the cut off position.  It will blow much
of the molten lead out of the engine exhaust.

You can also use ALCOR TCP fuel treatment if you can find it. We used that
in our fuel.  Do a search on Google and learn about it.  It's small $ but
when you consider wasting a cylinder to two, that's nothing.  If you use it,
you will see a difference.  Be careful pulling plugs as often as your are
(25-Hrs), use anti-seizure on the threads and use a calibrated torque wrench
to tighten them with so you don't pull threads or crack a cylinder.  I think
if your use the TCP and the shut down process as I described above you will
not need to pull the plugs every 25 hours.
jerb



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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

The reason they called it Low Lead, I call it Lead Loaded, is when it first
came out i was actually a low lead alternative to some of the high octane
aviation fuels available at the time. It's still great stuff for the guys
who are lucky enough to own one of the original 426 hemis.

Noel

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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:51 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

There is an idle jet adjustment on most carbs. The engine should be leaned
on that jet while warm and at the idle so that you don't see any black puffs
coming out of the exhaust.

There is also an STC for burning unleaded fuel... not a good idea in the
U.S. where most states won't allow the use of non ethanol gas. Ethanol
should never be used for anything other than cleaning parts. Another problem
with the STC is many insurance co. Don't like to insure aircraft on the STC.

Noel
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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:53 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

When you speak of things like O rings and gaskets being eaten by gas I start to suspect something in the gas like Ethanol. One of the problems with MOGAS is there is not standard for the gas. Every company has their own recipe which usually changes with the seasons.

Noel

From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd Archer
Sent: April 21, 2010 11:41 PM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: O-235 Plug Fouling?



Mogas is one of those things; I’ve had absolutely no problems with thousands of gallons run through an O-300. Maybe that’s the difference and that’s the only engine I’ve run with mogas. I bet fouling wasn’t one of your problems?

Todd



I have previously run Mo-Gas in our Citabria back in early-mid 90's - 73-7ECA O-235.

The results were this - increased maintenance on items which the gas touched - Fuel Cap seals more than once, fuel selector packing & o-rings, carb rebuild, as it began leaking. Money saved - none.
jerb


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DwightFrye



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:41 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Barry,

This is exactly what we do ... every time. In fact, at times I even
have to richen a little just to _taxi_, since it is so lean that it
becomes fuel-starved even with a slight application of throttle.

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. I'll be seeing the condition
of the plugs here tonight. Bear in mind, our A&P cleaned the bottom
ones just a two -weeks- ago. We probably don't have 5 hours on the
plane since then. Tonight I'm pulling 'em all.

-- Dwight

On Thu Apr 22 09:33:10 2010, FLYaDIVE wrote :
Quote:
Hello Dwight and Jerb:

LEANING WHILE TAXING IS A VERY GOOD THING.

You should lean so much that the engine almost dies. You will NEVER
score the cylinders due to leaning. The reason being is your percent
(%) of power is so extremely low - About 20 to 30% that there is
minimal heat produces and almost NO load on the engine.

NOW! The thing is to LEAN very aggressively so much so that if you
forgot to push the throttle in for take off - The engine would die of
fuel starvation second after being applied.

Barry
"Chop'd Liver"


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ulflyer(at)verizon.net
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:39 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Dwight,
If your seeing that much of a lead problem in 5 hours, there is some
thing wrong. I read some of your comments and we never taxied with
mixture leaned out. I starting to wonder if what your doing is
inducing more problems than it is solving. One thing that does help
clear out the lead is on shut down leave your mixture in rich
position, bring up the RPM 1500-1600, and pull the mixture. It will
help. Other than that try some TCP additive. It does help.
jerb
At 07:05 AM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
Quote:


Barry,

This is exactly what we do ... every time. In fact, at times I even
have to richen a little just to _taxi_, since it is so lean that it
becomes fuel-starved even with a slight application of throttle.

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. I'll be seeing the condition
of the plugs here tonight. Bear in mind, our A&P cleaned the bottom
ones just a two -weeks- ago. We probably don't have 5 hours on the
plane since then. Tonight I'm pulling 'em all.

-- Dwight

On Thu Apr 22 09:33:10 2010, FLYaDIVE wrote :
>Hello Dwight and Jerb:
>
>LEANING WHILE TAXING IS A VERY GOOD THING.
>
>You should lean so much that the engine almost dies. You will NEVER
>score the cylinders due to leaning. The reason being is your percent
>(%) of power is so extremely low - About 20 to 30% that there is
>minimal heat produces and almost NO load on the engine.
>
>NOW! The thing is to LEAN very aggressively so much so that if you
>forgot to push the throttle in for take off - The engine would die of
>fuel starvation second after being applied.
>
>Barry
>"Chop'd Liver"



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:44 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

On 04/21/2010 05:29 PM, Dwight Frye wrote:

Quote:
Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but
unfortunately they say right from the start :

Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of
certified aircraft ...


The certified "equivalent" is TCP Fuel Treatment, available from
Aircraft Spruce:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/alcortcp.php

I used TCP in my Cessna 150 (O-200) to help address lead buildup
problems, and when I moved to a Glasair with an O-320, I switched to
Decalin RunUp. Both are good products, and both eliminated the lead
buildup problems that I saw in both engines while running 100LL.

Note that with TCP you'll need to buy a separate dispenser. The
Decalin RunUp has the dispenser built-in to the container.

-Dj

--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/


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DwightFrye



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:48 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

I agree that something is wrong .. which is why I'm reaching out a
bit. Frankly, I suspect our mags are failing but we won't know for
sure until we swap them out in a month.

One thing we have NOT been doing is bringing the RPM up before we
shut down. I'm going to start doing that at a minimum because it
makes a LOT of sense.

-- Dwight

On Thu Apr 22 11:34:02 2010, jerb wrote :
Quote:
Dwight,
If your seeing that much of a lead problem in 5 hours, there is some
thing wrong. I read some of your comments and we never taxied with
mixture leaned out. I starting to wonder if what your doing is
inducing more problems than it is solving. One thing that does help
clear out the lead is on shut down leave your mixture in rich
position, bring up the RPM 1500-1600, and pull the mixture. It will
help. Other than that try some TCP additive. It does help.
jerb


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