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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:57 am Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

Gentlemen (and a couple of ladies) C

 

  Not that I want to get in the middle of your shootin' match C but I am curious about something else.

  One of the biggest reasons I chose to build a Kolb Mark III is because it was reported to be "easy to fly" C among a few other attributes I wanted.

 

  I would consider my flying experience as "light to moderate".  I've flown a Piper Cherokee C a few Cessnas (150's & 172's) C my own Cessna 172's (about 500 hours combined C in my own 172's).      Along with my factory-iron flying C I've got around 20 or so hours dual with an instructor in a Quicksilver trainer.   

  So C my total flying experience comes in around 600 hours C give or take.

 

  Now C compared to many of you C that's just chump change.  Some of you'ze guys have thousands of hours in all kinds of aircraft.  Some have less.

 

  My question is; how difficult was it for you to learn to fly your Kolb?  Would you really say your learning experience to fly your Kolb was "easy"?  (self taught or instructor taught)

 

  I will be taking be formal training C I guarantee that!!  I'm not risking destroying my Kolb or myself ASSUMING anything.    (I crashed an ultralight once C assuming a few hours of Cessna dual was "good enough".   Wrong!!)  I won't do THAT again!!

  

   My question is; Is it easy to learn to fly your Kolb?

 

Mike Welch

MkIII

 

  



 		 	   		  Hotmail: Free C trusted and rich email service. Get it now.  [quote][b]

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:25 am Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

Mike



   I took a few hours of dual in a 150...jumped in the MkIII that I had back in the late 90's and never looked back.. The MKIII was easier for me to fly than my Firefly...Herb 



 

 At 09:56 AM 2/9/2010, you wrote:

 [quote]Gentlemen (and a couple of ladies),

  

   Not that I want to get in the middle of your shootin' match, but I am curious about something else.

   One of the biggest reasons I chose to build a Kolb Mark III is because it was reported to be "easy to fly", among a few other attributes I wanted.

  

   I would consider my flying experience as "light to moderate".  I've flown a Piper Cherokee, a few Cessnas (150's & 172's), my own Cessna 172's (about 500 hours combined, in my own 172's).      Along with my factory-iron flying, I've got around 20 or so hours dual with an instructor in a Quicksilver trainer.   

   So, my total flying experience comes in around 600 hours, give or take.

  

   Now, compared to many of you, that's just chump change.  Some of you'ze guys have thousands of hours in all kinds of aircraft.  Some have less.

  

   My question is; how difficult was it for you to learn to fly your Kolb?  Would you really say your learning experience to fly your Kolb was "easy"?  (self taught or instructor taught)

  

   I will be taking be formal training, I guarantee that!!  I'm not risking destroying my Kolb or myself ASSUMING anything.    (I crashed an ultralight once, assuming a few hours of Cessna dual was "good enough".   Wrong!!)  I won't do THAT again!!

  

   My question is; Is it easy to learn to fly your Kolb?

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

  

   



 

  Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. now. 

 [b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:30 am Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

Really easy bird but you should aim your nose at the point you want to land, not out yonder somewhere like a cessna.Any taildragger symptoms will be exaggerated if you jack it up on longer legs or put too much toe-in.

(guilty on both counts)

BB



On 9, Feb 2010, at 10:56 AM, Mike Welch wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Gentlemen (and a couple of ladies),

 

  Not that I want to get in the middle of your shootin' match, but I am curious about something else.

  One of the biggest reasons I chose to build a Kolb Mark III is because it was reported to be "easy to fly", among a few other attributes I wanted.

 

  I would consider my flying experience as "light to moderate".  I've flown a Piper Cherokee, a few Cessnas (150's & 172's), my own Cessna 172's (about 500 hours combined, in my own 172's).      Along with my factory-iron flying, I've got around 20 or so hours dual with an instructor in a Quicksilver trainer.   

  So, my total flying experience comes in around 600 hours, give or take.

 

  Now, compared to many of you, that's just chump change.  Some of you'ze guys have thousands of hours in all kinds of aircraft.  Some have less.

 

  My question is; how difficult was it for you to learn to fly your Kolb?  Would you really say your learning experience to fly your Kolb was "easy"?  (self taught or instructor taught)

 

  I will be taking be formal training, I guarantee that!!  I'm not risking destroying my Kolb or myself ASSUMING anything.    (I crashed an ultralight once, assuming a few hours of Cessna dual was "good enough".   Wrong!!)  I won't do THAT again!!

 

  My question is; Is it easy to learn to fly your Kolb?

 

Mike Welch

MkIII

 

  

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now. 	  Quote: 	
		  



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 [quote][b]

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

Mike

  

 You will find that your MKIII IS easy to fly (assuming you  built it right). There are a few differences that can bite you. First the  high trust line will get you if you try a "crow hop". Chopping the power right  after takeoff will result in severe pitch up trim just when you don't want it.  Then if you then add power to recover from your unintended no power climb you  will get the reverse. If you just take off normally you will easily adjust to  prower/trim changes.

  

 The second most common issue is landing too high. You  Cessna experience will count against you. Also Kolb flaps are very useful but  powerful and will aggravate your Cessna training even more. Fly the  plane with some power to what will feel like inches off the ground then cut  the power. Use power on approach to make your MKIII fly like a Cessna  landing and you will have no problems. SLOWLY learn to land with less power.  Then after getting very comfortable you can try flaps. Landing with full flaps  and no power is a highly skilled maneuver that I still can't get right.   

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC 

 [quote]   ---

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

Rick C

  

   Thanks for the pointers.  I'm very familiar with the high thrust line tendencies.  The Quick 2-seater I flew had the Rotax 582 top-mount.  Pretty much the same reaction.

   My private pilot flight instructor C decades ago C told me "Slow power changes"!!!  "We aren't trying to scare the civilians" C he'd say.  I make gradual throttle changes.

  

   During my U/L training C I got to where I liked to chop the power (remember..slowly) C drop the nose C and grease it in.  I got to the point where my instructor and I carried on a casual conversation C all the while C while I flew in for a landing C but didn't touch down C instead C I flew 3 feet off the runway for it's entire length C and we talked about fishing the whole time.  When I got to the end C I'd throttle up C climb out C and do it again.  Got so relaxed at landings C they were like 2nd nature.

  

   When I was a heckava lot younger (35 years ago) I used to hang glide.  Flaring too high isn't going to be a problem.  That part seems pretty easy.

  

 Thanks for the input.

  

   BTW C For those that kept track; I put my MkIII construction on hold last spring C due to the construction of my house (1200' from the local airport).  I've virtually finished building my house C break time is over C and I feel the urge to get back to work on the plane.  My plan is get it done by early summer.

   The plane is fully painted C except for stripes.  The engine is practically ready to fire up.  Just some minor hook-ups to complete C and install my "already built" instrument panel.

  

 Mike Welch

 

  From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Learning to fly a Kolb

Date: Tue C 9 Feb 2010 11:52:14 -0500



  .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.ecxhmmessage {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10pt;}   Mike

  

 You will find that your MKIII IS easy to fly (assuming you built it right). There are a few differences that can bite you. First the high trust line will get you if you try a "crow hop". Chopping the power right after takeoff will result in severe pitch up trim just when you don't want it. Then if you then add power to recover from your unintended no power climb you will get the reverse. If you just take off normally you will easily adjust to prower/trim changes.

  

 The second most common issue is landing too high. You Cessna experience will count against you. Also Kolb flaps are very useful but powerful and will aggravate your Cessna training even more. Fly the plane with some power to what will feel like inches off the ground then cut the power. Use power on approach to make your MKIII fly like a Cessna landing and you will have no problems. SLOWLY learn to land with less power. Then after getting very comfortable you can try flaps. Landing with full flaps and no power is a highly skilled maneuver that I still can't get right.  

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC 

 [quote] ---

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:20 am Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

Mike the combination of your Cessna and Quicksilver experience means you'll have no trouble with your Kolb.  If anything, get an hour or two in a Cub to get the hang of flying a taildragger.



 My experience was similar (except my plane was a T-Craft, so the taildragger issue didn't exist), and I just got in my UltraStar and flew it, no problem.



 You'll need to get a tailwheel endorsement anyway if you don't already have one or have tailwheel solo time before some cutoff date.



 -Dana



 At 10:56 AM 2/9/2010, Mike Welch wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Gentlemen (and a couple of ladies),

  

   Not that I want to get in the middle of your shootin' match, but I am curious about something else.

   One of the biggest reasons I chose to build a Kolb Mark III is because it was reported to be "easy to fly", among a few other attributes I wanted.

  

   I would consider my flying experience as "light to moderate".  I've flown a Piper Cherokee, a few Cessnas (150's & 172's), my own Cessna 172's (about 500 hours combined, in my own 172's).      Along with my factory-iron flying, I've got around 20 or so hours dual with an instructor in a Quicksilver trainer.   

   So, my total flying experience comes in around 600 hours, give or take.

  

   Now, compared to many of you, that's just chump change.  Some of you'ze guys have thousands of hours in all kinds of aircraft.  Some have less.

  

   My question is; how difficult was it for you to learn to fly your Kolb?  Would you really say your learning experience to fly your Kolb was "easy"?  (self taught or instructor taught)

  

   I will be taking be formal training, I guarantee that!!  I'm not risking destroying my Kolb or myself ASSUMING anything.    (I crashed an ultralight once, assuming a few hours of Cessna dual was "good enough".   Wrong!!)  I won't do THAT again!!

  

   My question is; Is it easy to learn to fly your Kolb?

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

  

   



 

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  	  Quote: 	
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[/b] 	
	


 --

  When you were born, you cried and the world  rejoiced...

 Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.

 -- Cherokee saying    [quote][b]

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Learning to fly a Kolb

My $.02 worth



Get some time in a cub and learn how to wheel land it.



Jason 

MKIII

Portland, OR

[quote="mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co"]Gentlemen (and a couple of ladies) C

ï¿½

ï¿½ Not that I want to get in the middle of your shootin' match C but I am curious about something else.

ï¿½ One of the biggest reasons I chose to build a Kolb Mark III is because it was reported to be "easy to fly" C among a few other attributes I wanted.

ï¿½

ï¿½ I would consider my flying experience as "light to moderate".ï¿½ I've flown a Piper Cherokee C a few Cessnas (150's & 172's) C my own Cessna 172's (about 500 hours combined C in my own 172's).ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ Along with my factory-iron flying C I've got around 20 or so hours dualï¿½with an instructorï¿½in a Quicksilver trainer.ï¿½ï¿½ 

ï¿½ So C my total flying experience comes in around 600 hours C give or take.

ï¿½

ï¿½ Now C compared to many of you C that's just chump change.ï¿½ Some of you'ze guys have thousands of hours in all kinds of aircraft.ï¿½ Some have less.

ï¿½

ï¿½ My question is; how difficultï¿½was it for you to learn to fly your Kolb?ï¿½ Would you really say your learning experience to fly your Kolb was "easy"?ï¿½ï¿½(self taught or instructor taught)

ï¿½

ï¿½ I will be taking be formal training C I guarantee that!!ï¿½ I'm not risking destroying my Kolb or myself ASSUMING anything.ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ (I crashed an ultralight once C assuming a few hours of Cessna dual was "good enough".ï¿½ï¿½ Wrong!!)ï¿½ I won't do THAT again!!

 ï¿½

 ï¿½ My question is; Is it easy toï¿½learn to fly your Kolb?

ï¿½

Mike Welch

MkIII

ï¿½

ï¿½ 



 		 	   		  Hotmail: Free C trusted and rich email service. Get it now.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Learning to fly a Kolb

There is a tendency to flare by pulling the stick all the way back on landing for pilots who have flown large aircraft. Try to resist this and fly the plane to the ground. Light planes have more drag and will lose speed faster. Pulling back will stall it quicker and then damage the gear. Sometimes it helps to actually put the stick forward and dive it in to keep the speed up. This is somewhat unnerving and pilots want to resist this, but it will keep from bending things. I do this in heavy winds. No need for using flaps on the first flights.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Learning to fly a Kolb

To chime in with my .02,



If the Mark III flies anything like my FS II did, the quicksilver training is probably going to be of the most value. It'll fly closer to that plane by far than it will the big iron.



My FSII I basically just jumped in and went flying. Probably not what I'd recommend to someone else. But as soon as I got used to the tailwheel handling and flew the tail a bunch of times up and down the runway I pretty much just blasted off and went round the patch in it.



I did do a couple of crow hops down the runway first at which point I discovered that once airborne the plane flew almost exactly like my old quicksilver did. So off I went.



I did wheel landings about 95% of the time and if I bounced it a bit, some forward stick would glue it onto the runway. Big bounces of course I'd go around with smooth power applications and back pressure on the stick.



It does fly like a low-inertia design, not a lot of hang time in the flare and you do kind of drive it onto the runway. The Mark III may fly a little different, tho.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Steve Simmons

Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 30
Location: Talbott TN

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:17 pm Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

It is funny, when I wanted to learn to fly the Firstar, I got the basic

power settings from the ex owner and since I did not have access to anyone

else that I knew of to teach me with a Kolb I went out with one of my

friends and did 30 to 40 T/O and landings on a old 7AC then started crow

hopping, after about five or six trips up and down the runway I powered up

and took off to my surprise the little bird flew and landed just like the

old DC3 I use to fly freight in, perfect 3point landings and no bad habitat.

By the way it was not because of the pilot it just felt natural. 



--

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

> To chime in with my .02,

 >

 	  Quote: 	
		   LS


	




Wouldn't it be better to comment on MKIII flight characteristics if you were 

qualified in that particular aircraft?



john hauck

MKIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

 	  Quote: 	
		   By the way it was not because of the pilot it just felt natural.




	




Steve S/Gang:



Kolbs are beautiful, gentle, comfortable little airplanes to fly.  As you so 

well put, "have a natural feel."



Some new guys have difficulty with Kolbs because they don't fly the 

airplane.  Kolbs do not  fly by themselves.



Stick to the basics, keep it above the stall, and it won't fall through on 

short final.



Like any other fixed wing, won't fly below the stall.  Lowering stall speed 

doesn't help.  Keeping aircraft above stall speed does.



All Kolb models do well with wheel landings and three point full stall 

landings.  It isn't the aircrafts fault if you can't fly.



So simple, so basic.  If it was anything more, I couldn't do it.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Learning to fly a Kolb

Hello...Here is my 2 cents worth....As Rick said ,fly it right down to the ground...and I use flaps always...I maintain 55 mph all the way to the ground then level off and let it settle...and I mean inches from the ground...also if you are the one test flying it,go up with someone in your 172 and have then put the airplane way out of trim with them holding it level so when you take it you get the feel of it out of trim and deal with it ...that way if you get up with your Kolb,you will automatically have a feel for a problem....Just a thought....



Good luck ! 



chris ambrose

M3X/Jab

N327CS     98.0hrs

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:29 pm Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

> If the Mark III flies anything like my FS II did, the quicksilver 

training is probably going to be of the most value. It'll fly closer to that 

plane by far than it will the big iron.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 > LS
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Titan II SS


	


Lucien/Gang:



Sorry to be a "spring butt", but sometimes I feel it necessary to qualify 

some of the comments made on the Kolb List.



Mike Welch probably isn't looking for comments from someone with limited 

Kolb experience, and no MKIII experience, to give him ideas on what to 

expect when flying a MKIII.



Since you are not MKIII qualified, and he isn't looking for FSII flight 

characteristics, your comments might lend more harm than good.



I find most of your comments on the Kolb List are information you pick up 

from other sources, and not necessarily your own personal, hands on 

experience.  Some of it is good, and some of it is not so good.  You come 

across as a fair weather flyer, rather than a well rounded all weather VFR 

pilot.  To be an accomplished Kolb pilot, I believe it is necessary to 

experience and feel comfortable controlling the aircraft in uncomfortable 

weather.  During my flying career it has always been very easy to get caught 

out in bad weather, not matter what I was flying.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From my own personal experience, a J3 Cub and Aeronca Champ have similar 

flight characteristics and feel, to those of the MKIII.  Probably because of 
	


similar weight, airspeed, airfoil, and tube and fabric construction, not 

tube and sails.



I have never flown any other ultralight than a Kolb or Bert Howland's H2 

Honey Bee.  So I am not qualified to comment on how a Quicksilver flies, 

although I have watched them fly and listened to many pilots that fly them. 

Based on those comments, they do not fly like a Kolb.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:13 pm Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

At 08:29 PM 2/9/2010, John Hauck wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  I have never flown any other ultralight than a Kolb or Bert Howland's H2 Honey Bee.  So I am not qualified to comment on how a Quicksilver flies, although I have watched them fly and listened to many pilots that fly them. Based on those comments, they do not fly like a Kolb. 	


 John,



 You're correct that  Quicksilver flies nothing like a Kolb.  However, for a pilot used to flying Cessnas or similar, the low speed and inertia of a Quick will give a prospective Kolb pilot a taste of that kind of behavior, enough to give a Cessna driver a good chance of getting his new Kolb up and down without bending it (though some Cub or similar tailwheel time would be a good idea too).  It's a lot easier to find somebody instructing in a 2 seat Quicksilver than a Kolb.



 Of course I've never flown a MKIII, only my US and my friend's FSII, so all I can do is extrapolate there.



 -Dana

 --

  Sometimes it is easier to beg forgiveness than get permission.    [quote][b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:54 pm Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

Gentlemen C

  

   Yes C as John pointed out C I was more specifically asking about the actual learning and flying of a Kolb MkIII.  Without a doubt C a few Firestar comments couldn't hurt C but it is my MkIII that I hope to learn to fly this summer.

  

   Thanks.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 		 	   		  Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM pget='_new'>Sign up now.  [quote][b]

Steve Simmons

Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 30
Location: Talbott TN

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:55 pm Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

I have got a MarkIIIC but it is not flyable yet, hopefully next month I had

a firefly for about a year so I have more time if the firefly than the mark

III. I have about 30 minutes in a MarkIII with Steve Green so I have a lot

to learn yet.



--

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Learning to fly a Kolb

Mike ,,if you are ever near Houghton Lake ,Mi, I would be happy to give you some time in a M3X....it's not hard...just different...



chris ambrose

M3X/Jabiru    98.0+ hrs

N327CS

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Learning to fly a Kolb

Mike....check out my videos on you tube...search   ces308   and they will come up.



chris ambrose

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:30 pm Post subject: Learning to fly a Kolb

I have about 30 minutes in a MarkIII with Steve Green so I have a lot

 	  Quote: 	
		   to learn yet.


	


 Steve S/Gang:



Hated to see Steven G sell his MKIII.  We made several long flights 

together, the last was out to Monument Valley, Utah, a few years ago.



I had only flown Ultrastar and Firestar, when I crawled in the old Kolb 

factory MKIII up at Homer's in Feb 1991.  Dennis Souder took me for an 

impressive ride around the patch, demonstrated an ultra steep full flap 

approach, not on the grass strip, but on the short piece of grass next to 

the hanger.  After I got my heart out of my throat, Dennis hopped out and I 

went flying with zero MKIII stick time.  Kolbs are easy to fly, but you have 

to have some air sense and air speed.  Get below the stall and the Kolb will 

fall.  There is no such thing as "Kolb Quit".  There are some folks that 

can't fly though.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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