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FAA grounds 601 and 650

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hansriet

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

http://www.eaa.org/news/2009/2009-11-07_zodiac.asp

LHusky

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 86
Location: Madras, Oregon

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

I did not read anything that says the 601 or 650 is grounded by the  FAA?  Anyone else read something different, other than a title to a post  that is inaccurate.  

  

 I will sign my name to my post!

  

 Larry Husky 

 Madras, Oregon 

  

  In a message dated 11/7/2009 4:33:37 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  hansinla(at)mac.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith601-List message posted by: "hansriet"    <hansinla(at)mac.com>



http://www.eaa.org/news/2009/2009-11-07_zodiac.asp





Read    this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271611#271611===============================================

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  [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 04:32:43PM -0800, hansriet wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.eaa.org/news/2009/2009-11-07_zodiac.asp


	


They didn't quite ground it. They "strongly recommended" that the aircraft

not be flown again until the necessary modifications are made.



AMD has not issued the safety bulletin yet. Since there is no safety

bulletin yet, it's still legal to fly the SLSA version.



I'm told that it's been in development for a while, but know nothing about

it. I'll be calling the factory Monday to get the scoop.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

hansriet

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Larry,



No reason to get o defensive. Sorry for not signing my name. It;s Hans van Riet. And the way I read the FAA bulletin, it is grounded. It strongly recommends to comply with the mods. And it further states that you can't fly if you know that your aircraft is not airworthy. But to each his own interpretation.

Hans van Riet

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Hi Larry,



 I read the SAIB as saying the fleet is either grounded (S-LSA) or should be grounded by owners/operators of E-LSA and E-AB planes.



 The language is not quite as clear as normal humans would prefer.  I think the reason is to really "Ground" the planes the FAA would have to go through a year long (or longer) process of NPRM and public comments before actually issuing a rule.  This language is about as strong as they could use.  Instead of saying it is against the law to fly the planes, they imply that any pilot who flies one of these planes is in violation of FARs.



 I think it is very significant that they include 650s along with 601XLs in the SAIB.  That means all the effort by the various companies to make the problem go away by changing the model number amounted to nothing.



 Apparently this has been in the works and the release date was influenced by the accident in Arkansas.  I am sorry it took another fatal accident to get this moving, but I am glad the fixes for the design problems are now to be made available to us all.



 I presume the companies, AMD and ZAC, will make the design changes available soon.



 Paul

 XL awaiting engineering changes.



 



 At 04:43 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]I did not read anything that says the 601 or 650 is grounded by the FAA?  Anyone else read something different, other than a title to a post that is inaccurate.  

  

 I will sign my name to my post!

  

 Larry Husky 

 Madras, Oregon 

  [b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 06:33:36PM -0800, Paul Mulwitz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I read the SAIB as saying the fleet is either grounded (S-LSA) or should be 

 grounded by owners/operators of E-LSA and E-AB planes.


	


The SAIB says that FAA "strongly recommends" the fleet be grounded. However,

it does not say the fleet *is* grounded.



I expect that AMD will issue a mandatory safety letter first thing Monday

morning grounding the SLSA fleet. That has the legal force of an AD. The FAA

cannot issue ADs against SLSAs, according to the folks from the LSA group I

asked at Oshkosh.



However, SLSAs may be legally flown until that happens. This is not just of

academic interest to me: I had a trip planned for tomorrow. As it happens,

it got called off for other reasons.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I presume the companies, AMD and ZAC, will make the design changes 

 available soon.


	


I hope so. The question I have for you, Paul, is: Will you accept the changes

as AMD issues them, or will you insist that they include other changes if

you don't think they addressed the issues?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Hi Jay,



I can't answer your question until I actually see the 

changes.  However, I believe I will implement at least some of the 

changes and then proceed to have my plane inspected and  into phase 1 testing.



My position has always been (since the NTSB letter) that I wanted 

official changes for the aileron mass balance and control sensitivity 

issues.  I am not particularly concerned with the airspeed 

indication, but I will seriously consider any proposed change 

there.  I think it is safe to assume I will consider any wing 

structure change as satisfying my desire for aileron balancing.  The 

desire was based on the NTSB letter and there is now new official 

information to consider.



I am hopeful I will have my XL in the air and maybe completely 

through phase I before I return my leased plane to its owner next May.



Paul

At 06:49 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I hope so. The question I have for you, Paul, is: Will you accept the changes

as AMD issues them, or will you insist that they include other changes if

you don't think they addressed the issues?

Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

These are things I know as fact: 

- Zenair had designed, and AMD has been working on the steps it takes to

make the mods - and documenting the practical aspects of making the

modifications. 

- This announcement had been planned to be made by the end of October (and

the FAA has had the documents for a few weeks). Issuing the Safety

Alert/Directive required coordination with the FAA. This was finalized only

in the very recent past. I was told there had been some back-and-forth on

whether unmodified aircraft could continue to be flown at the reduced

performance/weight numbers; with modified aircraft able to move back to the

greater (previous) performance/weight. Apparently, that is not in the cards.

- Kits are being put together now for distribution.



Here's what I don't know: any particulars beyond the spar modifications. I

don't believe the items will match up 1-to-1 with the LAA. The facts suggest

that the real engineering analysis - with real data - has been performed by

the manufacturer and the FAA. Those modifications will be the appropriate

set; not the LAA's, as well-meaning as they are.



With respect to a grounding, the FAA can make a strong recommendation - or

order an emergency grounding; but it's the manufacturer who actually issues

the Safety Alert/Directive, and to which SLSAs must comply. That is what the

FAA bulletin reminds us. Jay is correct. Once (and if) AMD issues a "perform

before next flight" notification (which is what is coming it seems), then

one will need to apply for a Special Flight Permit if one wants to move the

aircraft to a place different from where it is currently located to have the

modifications made.



Let's please try to move past this.



Doug Norman

N601DN



--

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

The FAA may be able to ground 601s with S-LSA certificates but they  

have no authority to ground all E-AB 601s because there is no type  

certificate to take action against. The FAA would have to ground each  

individual E-AB on a case by case basis since each one is considered a  

one of a kind airplane. Besides which, during phase 1 testing I have  

flown my airplane to 4 Gs at a gross weight of 1320 lbs and have flown  

it to 110% of my stated Vne. I have carefully and systematically test  

flown my plane to the limits of its documented flight envelope and am  

confident that it is airworthy if flown within that envelope. I see no  

reason to reduce my flight envelope. I am the manufacturer, it is my  

decision to make, no one else's.



On Nov 7, 2009, at 7:43 PM, LHusky(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I did not read anything that says the 601 or 650 is grounded by the  

 FAA?  Anyone else read something different, other than a title to a  

 post that is inaccurate.



 I will sign my name to my post!



 Larry Husky

 Madras, Oregon



 In a message dated 11/7/2009 4:33:37 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, hansinla(at)mac.com 

  writes:

 


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Late breaking news: AMD just issued a Safety Alert, this evening, grounding

all 601XLs and 650 SLSAs. Zenair is with the FAA and the NTSB at the

accident site.



--

Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:19 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

And here it is.



Doug Norman

N601DN



--

SAFETY_ALERT_November_7_2009.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

SAFETY_ALERT_November_7_2009.pdf

Filesize:

49.28 KB

Downloaded:

763 Time(s)

Thruster87

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 193
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

 	  Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat wrote: 	
		  And here it is.



Doug Norman

N601DN



-- 	
Can these drawings be viewed anywhere???      Complete the upgrade by using the following information:

i. Drawing 6-ZU-1, 6-ZU-2, 6-ZU-3, and 6-ZU-4.

ii. Photo guide with construction standards

iii. Use “FAA AC-43.13.-1B and 2A if additional information is required

iv. Use the UK LAA's modification MOD/162B/004 dated 18/08/09 for only

the installation of the aileron counter balance weights. Drawings and

assembly instructions are part of the modification       Cheers

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Questions For Discussion



1. The FAA is saying that the E-AB guys should use the AMD fixes How will we get these drawings and parts?/ I am not a customer of AMD  I bought a kit from the boys in Mexico MO. Anybody on the list have any contact with the Zenith in Mexico MO??  I'm assuming they are doing the changes for AMD and are the ones really doing the drawings and making the parts?? 



2. The AMD Letter refers to the EU/UK LAA mass balance weights drawings and I've read that. However, the LAA doc also calls for a carry through spar mod that AMD makes no mention of.  SOOOOOO are we gonna have to do the carry through mod or not???



3. The AMD docs say the plane should be placarded per the November 2009 bulletin.  So how do the E-AB guys get that bulletin?



What a mess  I think its poor planning and PR and engineering practice to point to a EU / UK LAA document that is not drawn and managed by the designer / manufacturer, and not at least discuss WHY you are NOT saying we should do everything in this document but only do part of it.



Zenith /AMD  may not feel the spar mod is needed but at least say that or SAY SOMETHING!   To be mute on the issue is NOT ACCEPTABLE!!



I'm ready, willing and able to do any mod to my nearly complete 601XL  but I want words from Zenith as to their reasoning behind only implementing part of the LAA letter and not all of it



Zenith     NOW IS THE TIME TO SPEAK UP!!!  Every day you waste not addressing these questions devalues my aircraft, your investment in the 601 / 650 program and the Zenith Aircraft company.



I believe that no matter what problems may exists with the 601 /650 they are all fixable and we can have a safe respected airplane, but that requires the factory and designer to step up and say something



Larry Whitlow

601XL Jabiru 3300

N69102 (reserved)

I was about 90% done but now I apparently have more to do

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Hi Larry,



I think a little more patience will be rewarded.  My take on this whole mess:



1.  The FAA and AMD releases were rushed by the Agnos, AR 

accident.  They probably planned to all make the announcement at the 

same time to prevent the kind of frustration you are experiencing.  I 

think ZAC will make a similar release soon - Probably Monday morning.



2.  The AMD planes are more similar to each other than kit built 

planes.  That means some of the details for AMD owners are easier to 

spell out than they will be for kit builders or plans builders.  This 

especially applies to things like POH which will be different for 

each kit built plane but all the AMD planes probably use the same one.



3.  Chris Heintz has apparently been deeply involved in the 

development of these changes.  He has already announced (I think) 

that the LAA changes don't meet his approval.  I think we can expect 

a similar set of changes released from ZAC as the AMD ones but with 

orientation towards plans and kit builders rather than S-LSA 

purchasers.  The design is the same, but the freedom to make changes 

doesn't exist in the S-LSA world.  Also, AMD is calling for A&P 

efforts to make the changes while experimental plane owners will 

mostly work from plans or parts supplied by ZAC (or Aircraft Spruce) 

to do the changes themselves.



I am full of hope now that my plane will be able to fly pretty 

soon.  The changes are pretty extensive (at least according to the 

comments on AMD and FAA releases) so it might take a few months to 

complete them.  Still, I have never had a completion schedule and I don't now.



Paul

XL awaiting engineering changes



At 09:05 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Zenith     NOW IS THE TIME TO SPEAK UP!!!  Every day you waste not 

addressing these questions devalues my aircraft, your investment in 

the 601 / 650 program and the Zenith Aircraft company.



I believe that no matter what problems may exists with the 601 /650 

they are all fixable and we can have a safe respected airplane, but 

that requires the factory and designer to step up and say something



Larry Whitlow

Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Comments inline to Larry Whitlow's questions. I can partially answer some of

it. Please note that I have no connection with Zenair, Zenith, nor AMD. I am

an AMD customer. What I'm sharing is what I've been told.



This is frustrating for everyone; and it may be near an end.



Doug Norman

N601DN



--

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:01 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Hi Jay,



After further reading and thinking over the situation I would like to 

add to my previous comments on your question.



I am delighted that Chris made the personal effort to come up with 

the change package.  My biggest concern with any changes was that 

they might have negative impacts on the rest of the airframe 

design.  I decided I wanted someone with design responsibility to 

review the changes and offer the opinion that the changes would at 

least not reduce the overall design safety.  To have Chirs himself do 

this is a bonus in my opinion.  He is retired, but apparently he 

hasn't given up personal responsibility for this design.



Part of my own thoughts over the last few months has been what to do 

in the event that my Zodiac was still grounded when my lease on the 

Tecnam runs out next Spring.  The most important idea I had was 

this:  The difference between having a plane to fly and no plane to 

fly is much greater than the difference between having one model 

plane vs. another model.  I submit this is a good way for those who 

are worried about possible performance or handling changes in the 

Zodiacs to consider when the new design improvements are installed in 

their planes.



With the FAA, EAA, Chris Heintz, and probably Santa Claus urging all 

owners to install the design changes, I hope everyone will do 

this.  For my money, the improvement in safety is much more important 

than a possible reduction of a knot or two in speed or a few pounds 

of useful load.



To those owners who are just now discovering that owning an airplane 

includes unexpected expenses I offer my sympathy.  In truth this 

applies to all airplanes.



I remember someone commenting a few months ago about "The horse that 

can't be rode".  Hopefully these changes will transform the Zodiac XL 

(and its twin the 650) into the well behaved design we all wanted 

when we chose it.



Paul

XL getting ready to order upgrade kit

At 06:49 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I hope so. The question I have for you, Paul, is: Will you accept the changes

as AMD issues them, or will you insist that they include other changes if

you don't think they addressed the issues?

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Bryan



I have to agree with you and Doug, that, once you have the airworthiness 

certificate, you, the manufacturer and pilot of an E-AB, are the judge of 

whether or not your creation is airworthy. But I would like to add a bit 

more information for you to consider. With Mat's permission, I am posting 

the following message that I received this morning. I hope that all owners 

of E-AB 601XL's and 650's will consider what Mat has to say, particularly 

in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs.



 	  Quote: 	
		  >Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:16:33 -0800 (PST)

>From: Mat Heintz <heintz_mat(at)yahoo.com>

>Subject: Re: Transmittal of ZBAG CH601XL Flutter Report

>To: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>

>X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.21 required=4.00 

>tests=HTML_MESSAGE,BAYES_40,MR_NOT_ATTRIBUTED_IP,NO_RDNS2,MR_DIFF_MID,OTHER

>         version=3.2.1

>X-Spam-Level: ***

>X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (1.0) on mail.rkymtn.net

>

>Hi Terry,

>I was forwarded your comments on the Matronics list and has very happy to 

>see that you are in full support of the upgrade.

>We estimate that the upgrade parts will be significantly less than $1,000 

>USD as we will be supplying them at cost. As you stated, there is 

>absolutely no way that we can supply the parts free. We have been 

>spending way too much money on all this testing and litigation, so I 

>appreciate what you said. Our mission now is to get everyone to fly 

>safely and for us to stay in business so that we can support the aircraft 

>fro years to come.

>

>We now have a Q&A posted on the ZAC site and will be continuing a Q&A on 

>the zenith.aero site so that everyones questions will be answered.

>

>Regarding the Safety Alert. It is critical that everyone follows it and 

>that they do not fly thier aircraft until the upgrade is done. We are 

>talking about the Experimantal and AMD aircraft 601 XL and 650.

>

>I spent the weekend with the FAA and NTSB going over the accident in AR. 

>The NTSB will be about180 days before releasing anything of significance. 

>I want to make it cleare is that it does not seem to be overstressing of 

>the airframe but rather from vibrations or flutter. We have found out 

>that the owner did have flutter a few months back where he tensioned his 

>control cables. Recently, he installed an auto pilot and it could well be 

>that he was flight testing that. It could be that the auto pilot 

>overloaded the aileron system thus causing loose control cables. Or 

>manybe a loose flap system started severe vibrations. The bottom line is 

>that people should not fly until the upgrade is done. We will have 

>another drawing with more things to do (but very minor things).

>

>Thanks again for suporting the upgrade.

>

>Mathieu Heintz


	




At 10:45 PM 11/7/2009 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:45:54 -0500

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076)

Sender: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com

Reply-To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

X-Spam-Flag: YES

X-Spam-Status: Yes, hits=5.30 required=4.00 

tests=LOCALPART_IN_SUBJECT,BAYES_05,SPF_PASS,NO_RDNS2,OTHER

         version=3.2.1

X-Spam-Level: *****

X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (1.0) on mail.rkymtn.net






The FAA may be able to ground 601s with S-LSA certificates but they

have no authority to ground all E-AB 601s because there is no type

certificate to take action against. The FAA would have to ground each

individual E-AB on a case by case basis since each one is considered a

one of a kind airplane. Besides which, during phase 1 testing I have

flown my airplane to 4 Gs at a gross weight of 1320 lbs and have flown

it to 110% of my stated Vne. I have carefully and systematically test

flown my plane to the limits of its documented flight envelope and am

confident that it is airworthy if flown within that envelope. I see no

reason to reduce my flight envelope. I am the manufacturer, it is my

decision to make, no one else's.


	




Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; waiting on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

On Tuesday 10 November 2009 16:13, Terry Phillips wrote:

<snip>

 	  Quote: 	
		   >>I was forwarded your comments on the Matronics list and has very happy to

 >>see that you are in full support of the upgrade.

 >>We estimate that the upgrade parts will be significantly less than $1,000

 >>USD as we will be supplying them at cost. 

<snip>

Supplying them at materials cost is a step in the right direction. It's 

necessary, but whether or not it is acceptable remains to be seen. 

Meanwhile, I've been looking at the draft drawings to see just how much it 

would cost me for raw stock to get on with this show. I'm reluctant to jump 

in to some of thease changes, because I suspect some fine tuning remains to 

be done. However, so far, it looks like I could do this for a heck of a lot 

less than $1,000. I also might be able to avoid waiting for the upgrade parts 

to be available.

I have run into a snag: finding .093 3/4 x 3/4 6061-T6 for the spar uprights, 

and 1/8x1x1-1/2 for the front wing uprights and wing extrusion angle. There 

are some other snags, but those are things that I won't be doing for a while.

I've looked at ACS, Wicks, Airparts, and a few others with no luck. Has anyone 

else found a potential source for these materials?

-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

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