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Basic Electrical Architecture for review...

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: Basic Electrical Architecture for review...

At 10:17 AM 10/2/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>



Bob -



I'm a lurker on this site, but am in progress on a Pa22-20 project 

(certified).  How difficult would it be to use Z-11 in a certified 

aircraft and get a 337 for that purpose?  Has anyone done that 

recently?  Looks perfect for the project.

M. Haught


	


   I have often fantasized about taking a nice

   ol' rag-wing piper and updating the electrical

   system with something like Z-13/8, all

   new lightweight hardware and an RG battery.



   I'm aware of no projects flying where one

   has successfully run the gauntlet for

   permission to do a good thing to an ageing

   aircraft. Several folks have proposed such

   upgrades and have received tentative blessings

   on things like the forest of tabs ground bus

   and fuse blocks. But those systems have yet

   to be completed and signed off for flight.



        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: Basic Electrical Architecture for review...

At 04:47 PM 10/3/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>



Bob - Sent this earlier but did not get a reply.  Thought I would 

send it again.


	


   I found my reply in the out-box. Here it is again:

-------------------------------------------------------------

At 10:17 AM 10/2/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>



Bob -



I'm a lurker on this site, but am in progress on a Pa22-20 project 

(certified).  How difficult would it be to use Z-11 in a certified 

aircraft and get a 337 for that purpose?  Has anyone done that 

recently?  Looks perfect for the project.

M. Haught


	


   I have often fantasized about taking a nice

   ol' rag-wing piper and updating the electrical

   system with something like Z-13/8, all

   new lightweight hardware and an RG battery.



   I'm aware of no projects flying where one

   has successfully run the gauntlet for

   permission to do a good thing to an ageing

   aircraft. Several folks have proposed such

   upgrades and have received tentative blessings

   on things like the forest of tabs ground bus

   and fuse blocks. But those systems have yet

   to be completed and signed off for flight.

        Bob . . .

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handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: Basic Electrical Architecture for review...

Well, I was afraid that was what you would say, as I had no seen any 

discussion of such a project while I have been on here.  I guess I'm 

stuck with the original.  Looking at my fuselage, the wiring harness is 

intact and actually, all of the wiring looks really good with no frayed 

covering or corrosion on the attachment points.  But it will not support 

much in the way of avionics, etc. 



Thanks, Bob -



M. Haught



Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>



 At 04:47 PM 10/3/2009, you wrote:

> 

> <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>

>

> Bob - Sent this earlier but did not get a reply.  Thought I would 

> send it again.



   I found my reply in the out-box. Here it is again:

 -------------------------------------------------------------

 At 10:17 AM 10/2/2009, you wrote:

> 

> <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>

>

> Bob -

>

> I'm a lurker on this site, but am in progress on a Pa22-20 project 

> (certified).  How difficult would it be to use Z-11 in a certified 

> aircraft and get a 337 for that purpose?  Has anyone done that 

> recently?  Looks perfect for the project.

> M. Haught



   I have often fantasized about taking a nice

   ol' rag-wing piper and updating the electrical

   system with something like Z-13/8, all

   new lightweight hardware and an RG battery.



   I'm aware of no projects flying where one

   has successfully run the gauntlet for

   permission to do a good thing to an ageing

   aircraft. Several folks have proposed such

   upgrades and have received tentative blessings

   on things like the forest of tabs ground bus

   and fuse blocks. But those systems have yet

   to be completed and signed off for flight.

        Bob . . .

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: Basic Electrical Architecture for review...

Good Afternoon Marvin,

  

 I would never qualify as an expert on electrical systems, but I did  recently make a few changes which I feel are improvements to our 1955  PA-22-20.

  

 I replaced every piece of wiring that could be reached without cutting the  aircraft's fabric covering with nice new Tefzel wiring of the appropriate gauge.  I replaced all of the original Circuit Breakers and most switches with new  production substitutes. I removed the original CB panel and replaced it with a  hunk of angle aluminum that extends left to right all the way across the bottom  of the instrument panel. I also made new busses for all switches and CBs. 

  

 'Lectric Bob won't care for this next item, but I did add a radio master  switch to feed an electronics buss.

  

 I performed all functions in accordance with AC 43.13-1B citing appropriate  paragraphs for documentation of suitability. All work was noted on a 337  and filed with the FAA. No local approval required as AC43.13-1B provides  adequate documentation for an IA to determine whether or not the installation is  in conformance with those provisions.

  

 Our Pacer is now a very nice full WAAS equipped IFR platform!

  

 Any help at all?

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 10/4/2009 3:55:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  handainc(at)madisoncounty.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: Marvin Haught    <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>



Well, I was afraid that was what you    would say, as I had no seen any 

discussion of such a project while I have    been on here.  I guess I'm 

stuck with the original.  Looking at    my fuselage, the wiring harness is 

intact and actually, all of the wiring    looks really good with no frayed 

covering or corrosion on the attachment    points.  But it will not support 

much in the way of avionics, etc.    



Thanks, Bob -



M.  Haught



	


  [quote][b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: Basic Electrical Architecture for review...

At 11:28 AM 10/4/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Bob,



Thanks for taking a look at my architecture drawing.  As to why it 

differs from the recommendations in the Z-figures.  Good 

question.  I hope my answers are as good (I have no inherent desire 

to be "different").



- Removed the starter and associated support.  (As I also removed it 

from the aircraft.  I saved the parts as I might want to reinstall 

it (more appropriately wired) later.


	


  Okay



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Removed the primer (As I also removed it from the aircraft.  This 

might also be added back later in a more appropriately wired and 

plumbed manner)


	


   Hmmmm . . . must be a REALLY easy-to-prop engine . . .



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Replaced the ignition switches with SPST as part of the removal of 

the starter support features.  If/when I re-install the starter I 

intend to revisit the latest recommendations regarding connections 

here and anticipate I will be replacing these with the progress 

transfers as shown in Z11.


	


    Okay



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Rearranged the ground buses  to match  a pusher 

configuration  rather than the  tractor configuration.


	


    Okay



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Redefined the avionics ground bus to be an audio ground bus.  My 

Nav/Com uses a differential audio path allowing separate audio/power 

grounds.  All the avionics power grounds, with the exception of the 

low-power intercom return, terminate at the PNL Gnd bus.  All audio 

grounds (including the intercom power ground) terminate at the Audio Gnd bus.

- Reduced the number of connections tying the PNL ground to the 

Audio ground as it no longer carries any significant current.


	


    Can't comment on this without having understood/crafted

    the system . . .



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Replaced the regulator shown on Z11 with the one existent on the aircraft.


	


    good



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Added a stand alone low-voltage indicator as the existent 

regulator (to my knowledge) does not support the feature.


	


    always good



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Replaced the ANL with one sized to the existent alternator.


	


    okay . . . recall too that ANLs are VERY robust . . .

    you can go as small as ANL30 with plenty of headroom

    for 50A alternator.



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Replaced the shunt with one sized to match the existent Ampmeter.


	


    You have a 50A alternator?



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Used a 20Amp blade fuse instead of a fuse-link for the regulator 

power for reasons that are lost to history.  I will be using the 

fuse-link rather than 20A fuse approach.  (I suspect that, back when 

I did this, the recommendation for a fuse-link wasn't as obvious but 

who knows...

My book is years old.)


	


     . . . you can always download the latest Appendix

    Z from the websit along with the change-pages from

    the last revision. It's easy to keep your book up to

    date.



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Combined the endurance bus and main battery bus as the only items 

on the main bus that have significant load are the position, 

landing, and strobe lights and, if I end up with a (currently not 

shown) backup path for the bus feed, the check list will list 

specific loads to drop (e.g. turn off these lights) before enabling 

the backup power path.

- Removed the bus alternate feed as I haven't (yet) justified it as 

a worthy exception to the project guidelines (repair, not enhance as 

this stage).


	


    Re-read the explanation for an E-bus in Appendix

    Z notes and chapter 17 on reliability. The E-bus

    is for maximizing a limited resource (battery energy

    stored) during alternator-out operations.  It's also

    a plan-B during battery contactor failure. Highly

    recommended.



 	  Quote: 	
		  - Removed the Battery Bus as I have nothing that would attach to it.


	


    Okay



<snip>

 	  Quote: 	
		  It occurs to me now that the cleanest way to add an alternate power 

path (I don't like the approach I pondered on the schematic) may be 

to (conceptually, relative to Z11) move everything except the 

regulator power path from the main bus to the endurance bus (thus 

the main bus effectively becomes the output contact on the 

contactor).  And then replace the battery bus and the alternate feed 

switch with a fuse-link to a panel mounted breaker switch.  (Ideally 

a fuse link appropriate for 7-10 Amps, assuming such a thing 

exists)  My justification for the breaker switch in this application 

that I want this resettable in flight given that I will be required 

to manually load shed (i.e. turn off the lights) and, if I neglect 

the check list and leave the lights on, I want to have a reasonable 

recovery option.



   I'm also still seriously considering leaving the alternate feed 
	


path off until I revisit the electrical system during the 

"enhancement" project to follow in a couple of years.  For my current 

project, I think the alternate feeds greatest value is, in the event 

of a contactor failure, allowing my to keep my redundant source of 

ignition (but it also allows me to keep my primary nav/com etc. which 

is also nice 



    Your e-bus should supply power to goodies especially

    useful for continued flight to airport of intended

    destination without an alternator. This usually amounts

    to a handful of electro-whizzies for a battery only

    endurance that exceeds hours of fuel aboard



    Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: Basic Electrical Architecture for review...

At 11:28 AM 10/4/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Bob,



Thanks for taking a look at my architecture drawing.  As to why it 

differs from the recommendations in the Z-figures.  Good 

question.  I hope my answers are as good (I have no inherent desire 

to be "different").


	




 	  Quote: 	
		  - Removed the Battery Bus as I have nothing that would attach to it.


	


    Correction, how about the electronic ignition. It has

    its own power switch and is an excellent candidate

    for battery bus power. If you got bad smells in

    the cockpit you can power down the whole electrical

    system without reducing engine support. Fuel pump

    might run from battery bus too.



    Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: Basic Electrical Architecture for review...

At 08:50 AM 10/6/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob said:

>**These are exceedingly difficult to read**

Surprisingly enough, they work well for me but then they are much 

closer to what I'm used to than the book format.  I appreciate your 

efforts none-the-less.  I'll reformat extracts into your preferred 

format (as I did with the "architecture drawing") when offering 

things for you and the group to review in the future.


	


    Don't redraw them on my account. I'm only saying that

    the thought processes needed for analyzing functionality

    and doing a failure mode effects analysis requires rapid

    and definitive observation of electron pathways. The

    road-map technique is find for manufacturing but still

    impedes operational understanding.



    Ultimately, you're the one who needs to work and live

    with this project for the foreseeable future. By all

    means, use what ever documentation techniques offer

    you the greatest comfort.

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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