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z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: props

I'm trying to plan ahead a bit, while waiting for the z601XL kit to be 

available for pickup at Zenith's facility. One of the things on my shopping 

list is a prop.



I've got an O-200A that I'm overhauling, and I need a prop to mate with it for 

the 601XL. My current thinking is that:



1) I don't want to use a metal prop because of weight. 

2) It may be desirable to use a ground-adjustable prop so I can tweak the 

pitch for max performance consistent with LSA requirements.



While the lower weight of a wood or composite prop is desirable, it may also 

shift the weight and balance envelope too far aft. What has been experienced 

in this area? 



And, in general, what are others using and experiencing? Are there any of the 

homebuilt prop companies which seem particuarly good or particular bad, and 

should be avoided? Your comments are solicited. Thanks.

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: props

Hi Jim,



I would suggest you plan to use a wood prop.  I am using one from 

Sensenich for my XL, but it was chosen by the folks that put together 

a FWF for my Jabiru engine.  Rumor has it this particular prop works 

very well on the XL while the Sensenich composite ground adjustable may not.



Your engine is one of the heaviest ones that will work in the Zodiac 

XL.  That means your weight and balance problem will likely be too 

much weight up front rather than too little.



You might be able to use one of the ground adjustable pitch props 

available since you have only 100 HP.  There are several choices with 

100 HP as their upper limit.



One of the advantages of wood props is they are low enough in price 

that you can plan to have a few different ones over time.  Indeed you 

will need to replace them much faster than a metal prop.



Good luck,



Paul

XL getting close

do not archive

At 09:11 AM 10/17/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I'm trying to plan ahead a bit, while waiting for the z601XL kit to be

available for pickup at Zenith's facility. One of the things on my shopping

list is a prop.



I've got an O-200A that I'm overhauling, and I need a prop to mate 

with it for

the 601XL. My current thinking is that:



1) I don't want to use a metal prop because of weight.

2) It may be desirable to use a ground-adjustable prop so I can tweak the

pitch for max performance consistent with LSA requirements.



While the lower weight of a wood or composite prop is desirable, it may also

shift the weight and balance envelope too far aft. What has been experienced

in this area?



And, in general, what are others using and experiencing? Are there any of the

homebuilt prop companies which seem particuarly good or particular bad, and

should be avoided? Your comments are solicited. Thanks.

--

=

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: Re: props

With an O-200 I don't think you will ever need to concern yourself with the CG being too far backwards because of a prop.



If you are going to keep your plane inside a hanger most of the time, rarely fly in the rain and not land off airport too often go with wood. It looks better. If not go with a Warp Drive or Sensnich composite. 

 	  z601(at)anemicaardvark.co wrote: 	
		  

While the lower weight of a wood or composite prop is desirable, it may also 

shift the weight and balance envelope too far aft. What has been experienced 

in this area?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: props

Check out the IVO prop. I had a 3 blade elec. adjust (in flight adjustable) 

and it was GREAT! Excelent climb and then set for your cruise. Easy to use. 

I don't know what the legality is since you cannot have in-flight adjust 

under sport pilot rules. You should check if you do the initial registration 

in that configuration can you remove the elec. adjust later to be legal 

under sport OR do you register it without the elec. motor on, then add it 

later so it can then be removed if you fly under sport rules???

 At any rate the 3 blade elec adjust for the O-200 is a few lbs. lighter 

than metal even with the elec adjust but the extra weight is at the hub so 

the prop will still spin up faster than aluminum.

 You can also remove one blade If one gets damaged and fly home on 2. OR 

just fly on 2 blade prop, slightly less climb and slightly faster cruise 

this way.



I'm not connected with IVO, just used one on a 2 place ultralight and was 

very pleased with the performance.



Dirk

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: props

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 11:11:13AM -0500, Jim Belcher wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   And, in general, what are others using and experiencing?


	


For completeness' sake, AMD is using a Sensenich wood-composite prop with

the O-200. CG has never been an issue for me.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: props

The AMD factory built 601/650 has a wood Sensenich fixed pitch prop and O-200A. Using the same one might get you a 25hr instead of 40hr flight test period.



--- On Fri, 10/17/08, Jim Belcher <z601(at)anemicaardvark.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Jim Belcher <z601(at)anemicaardvark.com>

Subject: props

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 9:11 AM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jim Belcher

<z601(at)anemicaardvark.com>



I'm trying to plan ahead a bit, while waiting for the z601XL kit to be 

available for pickup at Zenith's facility. One of the things on my  shopping



list is a prop.



I've got an O-200A that I'm overhauling, and I need a prop to mate with

it for 

the 601XL. My current thinking is that:



1) I don't want to use a metal prop because of weight. 

2) It may be desirable to use a ground-adjustable prop so I can tweak the 

pitch for max performance consistent with LSA requirements.



While the lower weight of a wood or composite prop is desirable, it may also 

shift the weight and balance envelope too far aft. What has been experienced 

in this area? 



And, in general, what are others using and experiencing? Are there any of the 

homebuilt prop companies which seem particuarly good or particular bad, and 

should be avoided? Your comments are solicited. Thanks.

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Re: props

I asked the FSDO in writing about that prop and LSA. Big NO. I even asked if it would be legal if the in-flight adjustable feature were disabled and could not be activated in the cockpit. Like a switch in the wire under the cowl that could turn the adjustment ability on for a non-LSA pilot and off when an LS pilot was flying. Again a big NO.



 	  ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: 	
		  Check out the IVO prop. I had a 3 blade elec. adjust (in flight adjustable) 

and it was GREAT! Excelent climb and then set for your cruise. Easy to use. 

I don't know what the legality is since you cannot have in-flight adjust 

under sport pilot rules. You should check if you do the initial registration 

in that configuration can you remove the elec. adjust later to be legal 

under sport OR do you register it without the elec. motor on, then add it 

later so it can then be removed if you fly under sport rules???

 At any rate the 3 blade elec adjust for the O-200 is a few lbs. lighter 

than metal even with the elec adjust but the extra weight is at the hub so 

the prop will still spin up faster than aluminum.

 You can also remove one blade If one gets damaged and fly home on 2. OR 

just fly on 2 blade prop, slightly less climb and slightly faster cruise 

this way.



I'm not connected with IVO, just used one on a 2 place ultralight and was 

very pleased with the performance.



Dirk

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: props

...and the natural damping of the wooden prop is an asset to both the airframe and the engine.



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Fri, 10/17/08, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: props

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 12:37 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona"

<wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>



With an O-200 I don't think you will ever need to concern yourself with the

CG being too far backwards because of a prop.



If you are going to keep your plane inside a hanger most of the time, rarely

fly in the [quote][b]

ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: props

You can still install this prop as ground ajustable and add the elec. motor 

later.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I asked the FSDO in writing about that prop and LSA. Big NO. I even asked 

 if it would be legal if the in-flight adjustable feature were disabled and 

 could not be activated in the cockpit. Like a switch in the wire under the 

 cowl that could turn the adjustment ability on for a non-LSA pilot and off 

 when an LS pilot was flying. Again a big NO.

chris Sinfield

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: props

 Rumor has it this particular prop works 

very well on the XL while the Sensenich composite ground adjustable may not. 



Dont tell me this Paul as I just bought the ground adjustable one. I thought it was OK with the Jab USA FWF kit from Pete..

Chris

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: props

It is not a rumor but not as bad as Paul says. On one of the FWF DVDs Pete

says something like "the adjustable prop is nice but it will cost you 2 or 3

knots"



My feeling is that since you can adjust it you will be able to make the

adjustable prop fit your flying goals better than a fixed wooden prop.



-- Craig



--

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject: props

Hi Chris,



Actually it was Pete that told me it didn't work well, so he sold me 

the wood prop when I bought the engine and FWF from him.



Paul

do not archive



At 08:37 PM 10/18/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>



  Rumor has it this particular prop works

very well on the XL while the Sensenich composite ground adjustable may not.



Dont tell me this Paul as I just bought the ground adjustable one. I 

thought it was OK with the Jab USA FWF kit from Pete..

Chris

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: Re: props

Oh Man  I hope not



I bought the Carbon Fiber Ground Adjustable right from Jabriu and nobody said a word.



I went that way because of weight on the nose  I'm using the Jab 3300 and I wanted to shave a few pounds up front so I didn't have to put the battery behind the seat



Oh well  Its in the box and it's going on the front!!!  



OK OK  maybe I should mount the engine first!  That's next months job.



Larry Whitlow



 	  psm(at)att.net wrote: 	
		  Hi Chris,



Actually it was Pete that told me it didn't work well, so he sold me 

the wood prop when I bought the engine and FWF from him.



Paul

do not archive



At 08:37 PM 10/18/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<chris_sinfield>



  Rumor has it this particular prop works

very well on the XL while the Sensenich composite ground adjustable may not.



Dont tell me this Paul as I just bought the ground adjustable one. I 

thought it was OK with the Jab USA FWF kit from Pete..

Chris

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: props

Last year and over 100 flight hrs ago, my wife bought me a ground adjustable 

prop for my XL.  I hung my wood Sensenich W64ZK51 on the wall - it still 

looks new!



My opinion - The Sensenich EZ Pitch Composite, P/N 2AOJ5R64ZN, is great on 

my XL.  I have it pitched for climb out of my farm field (need it! - 

Tennessee trees are not the FAA "standard 50 ft" ones).  My XL has 6x600 

wheels/tires all around, so it is a little more draggy than a standard XL.



I can not be sure, but it does seem to be a little smoother than the wood 

one.



I did lose about 2 - 3 kts in cruise at the same rpm, but I can get up 

faster.  Would do it again.



Tony Graziano

Zodiac 601XL/Jab3300A; N493TG; 432 hrs



---

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: props

Thanks for all the input from everyone on props. It does not sound as though I 

will have a weight and balance issue. For my application, it appears the 

choice remains between ground adjustable and fixed pitch wood.



I'll get some prices, and see if I can afford the adjustable. If I can't, I'll 

see if I can get one of the experimental shops to clone the Sensenich wood 

fixed pitch prop.



Incidently, it may just be my background, but I've never considered not having 

at least a 40 hour test period. Thus, a certified engine/certified prop 

combination has never been a consideration to me.

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: props

 	  z601(at)anemicaardvark.co wrote: 	
		  



I'll get some prices, and see if I can afford the adjustable. If I can't, I'll 

see if I can get one of the experimental shops to clone the Sensenich wood 

fixed pitch prop.



	




Why not just have Sensenich make you one? My custom prop (which spins the wrong way) was a little under $800.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: props

On Tuesday 21 October 2008 16:02, Gig Giacona wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Why not just have Sensenich make you one? My custom prop (which spins the

 wrong way) was a little under $800.


	


That's cheaper than I would have expected.  I'll consider them.

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: props

Hi Jim,



Why not get Sensenich to make you the prop you need.  The one I got 

for the Jabiru (64ZK49, I think) was around $600.  It has a nice 

plastic leading edge and seems like a good deal to me.  I have 

exchanged emails with the guy at Sensenich and believe he will 

probably be happy to supply your prop.  If you have trouble finding 

the right contact (try Google) let me know and I will find my old email.



Good luck,



Paul

At 12:09 PM 10/21/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Thanks for all the input from everyone on props. It does not sound 

as though I

will have a weight and balance issue. For my application, it appears the

choice remains between ground adjustable and fixed pitch wood.



I'll get some prices, and see if I can afford the adjustable. If I 

can't, I'll

see if I can get one of the experimental shops to clone the Sensenich wood

fixed pitch prop.



Incidently, it may just be my background, but I've never considered 

not having

at least a 40 hour test period. Thus, a certified engine/certified prop

combination has never been a consideration to me.

--

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

                Jim B. Belcher

     BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                   A&P/IA

            Instrument Rated Pilot

      General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Re: props

In all seriousness if I found a prop maker that would custom build a wooden prop for less than Sensenich did there is no way I fly behind it.



I checked my records and the exact price was $725 + $26 shipping for my 64x43 prop. I ordered mine in February of this year and got it about 11 week later.



Just for fun do three Google searches and look at the hit counts at the top of the page and then think how long Sensenich has been building props and how many are out there as opposed the others.



IVO Prop Failure

Warpdrive Prop Failure

Sensenich Prop Failure



 	  z601(at)anemicaardvark.co wrote: 	
		  On Tuesday 21 October 2008 16:02, Gig Giacona wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Why not just have Sensenich make you one? My custom prop (which spins the

 wrong way) was a little under $800.



	


That's cheaper than I would have expected.  I'll consider them.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: props

On Wednesday 22 October 2008 11:24, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 In all seriousness if I found a prop maker that would custom build a wooden

 prop for less than Sensenich did there is no way I fly behind it.


	


There supposedly are some good non-certificated prop makers out there. At one 

time, one lived in my area (about 30 miles from here, near Marfa, Texas). His 

props were legendary,  but he's long since deceased, or I'd at least pay him 

a visit. 



But, as I think you are suggesting, there is some bottom line price at which 

one can make a quality prop (or anything else, for that matter). I suspect 

the numbers you quote from Sensenich are at or near that value.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I checked my records and the exact price was $725 + $26 shipping for my

 64x43 prop. I ordered mine in February of this year and got it about 11

 week later.


	


Those are good numbers to have. What I needed was a good source, a price, and 

a typical delivery. That tells me about when in my building process to invest 

the capital in the prop. Do you by chance have a part number, or did they 

quote solely based on diameter and pitch?



If that's the prop I think it is, it's the one AMD used on the FAR23 version 

of the 601XL. In that case, it's a known good match to an O200. While I'm 

building an experimental aircraft, I'd really like to limit the number of 

things I'm experimenting with at any one time.



I'm surprised Sensenich's price is that low. I guess I'm accustomed to their 

metal props, which sometimes ran in the $2,500-$3,000 range when I bought 

them for relatively non-complex GA aircraft.



Thanks!

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

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