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jbowerman(at)fastspot.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: New purchase

All,  

   

I may be purchasing a CJ-6A in the next few days and would like some advice on how to file with my local FSDO.  I know there has to be a program letter, but don’t know the best way to write it.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  

   

Regards,  

Jim Bowerman

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: New purchase

Jim,

 If you contact me off list I will forward a cc of mine to you. www.flyredstar.com also has copy of one on it too.

 viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: New purchase

BE CAREFUL WITH THE FSDO!  Check the air worthiness  certificate and log books for original issue date. If the airplane is  pre-moritorium they might tell you that a new AWC will have to be issued. If  this happens the airplane will have to be operated under the newer rules. There  is incorrect. There is an owner here in the DFW area this happened to and he is  having hell getting it steaightened out.The original AWS is good regardless how  many people have owned it.

 [quote]   ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: New purchase

<The original AWS is good regardless how many people  have owned it.>  That is true provided it is a premoratorium  aircraft.  If it is a post moratorium aircraft, the airworthiness  certificate is reissued when the airplane is sold or is moved to a different  home base airport as listed in the aircraft's Operating Limitations because the  OL's and AWC are married together.  Unfortunately, a FSDO can choose to  rewrite the OL's based on the current regulations/FAA Order covering the  operation of the aircraft.

 Dennis

  

  

 ---

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: New purchase

You might also need a ferry permit to get it to your new home base.  I had to do this and neglected to get a mechanic's sign-off and caught some flack from my local fsdo.  Why did I need a mechanic's sign-off?  Because it was on the ferry permit form (I guess).



My local fsdo "helped" me rewrite the airworthiness certificate and operating limitations.  They also gave me crap about my airspeed indicator being in KPH (which apparently are not "English" - per the regulations).  Hmm...



My advice when dealing with the fsdo on this:  smile, nod your head, don't volunteer any information and try not to strangle anyone.

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: New purchase

Scooter,

You have definitely got it figured out!  These FSDO guys sometimes don't 

have a clue as to how or what to do.  With regards to having to get a ferry 

permit, maybe it's true that an A&P has to sign one off.  A ferry permit is 

issued to ferry an aircraft from point A to point B when it is by definition 

"unairworthy".  ie: out of annual etc?  Not to relocate an airplane to 

another home base airport.  FWIW, See part 21.197 

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGFAR.NSF/0/A86F3EF7C96B5C46862570EC0077E295?OpenDocument. 

I'm sure your airplane was in annual.

Dennis

---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: New Purchase

Scooter,

You have definitely got it figured out!  These FSDO guys sometimes don't

have a clue as to how or what to do.  With regards to having to get a ferry

permit, maybe it's true that an A&P has to sign one off.  A ferry permit is

issued to ferry an aircraft from point A to point B when it is by definition

"unairworthy".  ie: out of annual etc?  Not to relocate an airplane to

another home base airport.  FWIW, See part 21.197

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGFAR.NSF/0/A86F3EF7C96B5C46862570EC0077E295?OpenDocument.

I'm sure your airplane was in annual.

Dennis

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: New purchase

The airplane in the DFW area was orig. certificated and  registered in 1991- pre-moritorium. Some previous owner allowed the FSDO to  issue new AWC and OL's not realizing this was incorrect. Probably can't be  undone , but trying. This plane was owned by BARRY HANCOCK . Any info or history  would be helpful. I will pass on to owner.---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: New purchase

I seriously doubt there is anything that can be done to  put it back as a premoratorium aircraft.  You may want to talk with the  EAA/Warbirds of America government affairs group.  Explain the situation  and get their advice.  It's probably too late though.

  

 The key is a FSDO can choose to rewrite the OL's based on  current regulations/FAA Order 8130.2x.  That's tough to challenge and  win.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: New purchase

I don't recall now why I needed the ferry permit.  Must have been because the airworthiness certificate was no longer considered valid (because I was buying the airplane and moving it away from its home base).  I contacted the fsdo where the aircraft was based and my local fsdo.  Seems like my local fsdo thought i needed the ferry permit but the other fsdo didn't.  But I can't recall now.



It's a hell of a thing to sit there in your fsdo guys office and have him tell you that you just busted the regs.  Then after you've exhausted your arguments to no avail he tells you that he just wants to point that out for your benefit.  Your balls are in his hands and its a real helpless feeling.  

 	  dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co wrote: 	
		  Scooter,

You have definitely got it figured out!  These FSDO guys sometimes don't 

have a clue as to how or what to do.  With regards to having to get a ---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject: New purchase

Scooter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I don't recall now why I needed the ferry permit.  Must have been because the airworthiness certificate was no longer considered valid (because I was buying the airplane and moving it away from its home base).


	


No, there was no need to do anything besides have the previous owner

send a FAX to the local FSDO saying that the bird was flying to your new

home.



Most of the problems crop up when people start trying to analyze and

second-guess the rules and regs. And the guys at the FAA probably

understand those rules no better than you do.



Sure you need to change the AC and the LOL *when* *you* *change* *the*

*aircraft's* *home* *base*. But when you buy the aircraft and fly it

home, its home base is still its old home base and the AC and existing

LOL are still valid. Changing the registration does not invalidate the

AC and LOL unless the existing LOL says that it does. I have never seen

an LOL that does but am prepared to be enlightened.



So why do you want to change the LOL and AC? Because you want to be able

to fly the airplane for proficiency within the 300nm radius of your

airport AND the airplane is going to reside withing the jurisdiction of

the new FSDO. But until you do that, you send a fax to the old FSDO and

then fly away. The airplane is flying to its new home temporarily and

the old FSDO is still the authoritative office. No ferry permit needed.



So, fly it to its new home and then go visit the new FSDO with the old

AC and LOL in hand. Carry your new program letter with you. If you make

an appointment ahead of time you should be out of there in about 15 minutes.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I contacted the fsdo where the aircraft was based and my local fsdo.  Seems like my local fsdo thought i needed the ferry permit but the other fsdo didn't.  


	


That is because you made the mistake of asking the question. Remember,

if you ask a question be prepared to be instructed that you may not do

what you want to do. The most restrictive answer is also the safest for

the FAA employee answering your question.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: Re: New purchase

Actually I believe I was just calling the fsdo to work out the details on my new required paperwork.  They asked the right questions and determined that I was ferrying the aircraft without a permit.  What followed was a very heated telephone conversation.  



Had I flown it w/o the permit then walked in to their office and told them the truth then my nuts really would have been in the fire.  It's probably legal w/o the ferry permit but i'd have to convince them of that.



My advice is:  do it their way no matter how stupid it is.  This avoids any potential conflict.  Remember you are guilty until proven otherwise.



 	  brian wrote: 	
		  Scooter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I don't recall now why I needed the ferry permit.  Must have been because the airworthiness certificate was no longer considered valid (because I was buying the airplane and moving it away from its home base).



	


No, there was no need to do anything besides have the previous owner

send a FAX to the local FSDO saying that the bird was flying to your new

home.



Most of the problems crop up when people start trying to analyze and

second-guess the rules and regs. And the guys at the FAA probably

understand those rules no better than you do.



Sure you need to change the AC and the LOL *when* *you* *change* *the*

*aircraft's* *home* *base*. But when you buy the aircraft and fly it

home, its home base is still its old home base and the AC and existing

LOL are still valid. Changing the registration does not invalidate the

AC and LOL unless the existing LOL says that it does. I have never seen

an LOL that does but am prepared to be enlightened.



So why do you want to change the LOL and AC? Because you want to be able

to fly the airplane for proficiency within the 300nm radius of your

airport AND the airplane is going to reside withing the jurisdiction of

the new FSDO. But until you do that, you send a fax to the old FSDO and

then fly away. The airplane is flying to its new home temporarily and

the old FSDO is still the authoritative office. No ferry permit needed.



So, fly it to its new home and then go visit the new FSDO with the old

AC and LOL in hand. Carry your new program letter with you. If you make

an appointment ahead of time you should be out of there in about 15 minutes.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I contacted the fsdo where the aircraft was based and my local fsdo.  Seems like my local fsdo thought i needed the ferry permit but the other fsdo didn't.  



	


That is because you made the mistake of asking the question. Remember,

if you ask a question be prepared to be instructed that you may not do

what you want to do. The most restrictive answer is also the safest for

the FAA employee answering your question.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

wade154(at)frontiernet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: New purchase

Hi all I was curious about the operating limitations for an aircraft that

I'm trying to sell got most of my answers at

www.utility-aircraft.com/catalog/certificate/order.htm the aircraft that I'm

selling had a paragraph stating that if it was equipped to operate night

and/or IFR it could be done, but when asked to come into the local FSDO they

changed it to VFR-DAY only. How many aircraft with OL can be operated

IFR-NIGHT?



Bill Wade

N4450Y

---

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: New purchase

I think your FSDO is behaving badly !



8130.F is the smorgus board of regulations from which the FSDO will select

and include paragraphs, pretty much verbatim, into your OP lim letter. The

section that deals with lights, night and IFR reads as follows



(13) Unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in

accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.



See the point here is that the FSDO is supposed to select from the menu,

there should be no ala carte option.



If I were you Bill I would challenge them on it. If they still refuse to see

the light set EAA on them those government affairs guys just love a good

scrap with the feds.



Best of luck with that.



Gus



--

L39parts(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: New purchase

All of them, except yours.  You got screwed for being gullible.



---

shinden33(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: New purchase

Scooter,



I would have to disagree with regards to arguing.  The more we let them get

away with the more lax and criminal they will get.  90% of the government

agencies and workers I have dealt with are nothing more than jobs programs

(hence one of the main reasons I am leaving my current job as a DOD

civilian).   These people must be kept in check to the best of our ability

or they will end up making life harder on everyone.  Believe me, I

understand how difficult it is to do so but they are not the Gods they think

they are.  One on one they will scorn you.  Bring up the regs in more public

forum or to their superiors (at whatever level you need to go to) and you

will find generally they back down.



Scott



--

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: New purchase

Each paragraph from the smorgus board you speak of has specific group 

applicability.  Some say "All", others say Group III under 800 horsepower 

(our aircraft), etc.

Dennis



---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: New purchase

Scooter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Actually I believe I was just calling the fsdo to work out the details on my new required paperwork.  They asked the right questions and determined that I was ferrying the aircraft without a permit.  What followed was a very heated telephone conversation.  


	


No, you need a ferry permit to operate an aircraft that does not have a 

valid airworthiness certificate. The airplane had a valid airworthiness 

certificate. You did not need a ferry permit.



The airworthiness certificate is NOT tied to the aircraft registration. 

They are separate and disconnected.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Had I flown it w/o the permit then walked in to their office and told them the truth then my nuts really would have been in the fire.  It's probably legal w/o the ferry permit but i'd have to convince them of that.


	


No, you don't have to convince them of anything. You just tell them that 

you are changing the aircraft's home base to a new field that happens to 

be within their jurisdiction. Until they issue a the AC with a new LOL 

indicating the new home field, you are operating on a valid AC whose LOL 

indicates a different home field that falls within the jurisdiction of a 

different FSDO. No rocket science here.



 	  Quote: 	
		   My advice is:  do it their way no matter how stupid it is.  This avoids any potential conflict.  Remember you are guilty until proven otherwise.


	


You are doing it their way. They wrote the regs and you are adhering to 

them. You just aren't doing it the made-up way that some bonehead came 

up with on-the-fly at your local FSDO when you happened to call on the 

phone. Big difference.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: New purchase

If you have moved to a new address along with moving your airplane to a new 

home base airport within the same FSDO's jurisdicton, you must first obtain 

a new registration with your new address before the FSDO will issue a new 

airworthiness certificate and OL's.  That means you must present your new, 

hard copy registration to the FAA inspector.  He can't issue a new AC and 

OL's without physically see it.

Dennis



---

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: Re: New purchase

I think you're missing the point Brian.  I knew/know I was correct - hence the argument with the fsdo.  If you guys want to fight the government then have at it!  I've done my fighting.

 	  brian wrote: 	
		  Scooter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Actually I believe I was just calling the fsdo to work out the details on my new required paperwork.  They asked the right questions and determined that I was ferrying the aircraft without a permit.  What followed was a very heated telephone conversation.  



	


No, you need a ferry permit to operate an aircraft that does not have a 

valid airworthiness certificate. The airplane had a valid airworthiness 

certificate. You did not need a ferry permit.



The airworthiness certificate is NOT tied to the aircraft registration. 

They are separate and disconnected.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Had I flown it w/o the permit then walked in to their office and told them the truth then my nuts really would have been in the fire.  It's probably legal w/o the ferry permit but i'd have to convince them of that.



	


No, you don't have to convince them of anything. You just tell them that 

you are changing the aircraft's home base to a new field that happens to 

be within their jurisdiction. Until they issue a the AC with a new LOL 

indicating the new home field, you are operating on a valid AC whose LOL 

indicates a different home field that falls within the jurisdiction of a 

different FSDO. No rocket science here.



 	  Quote: 	
		   My advice is:  do it their way no matter how stupid it is.  This avoids any potential conflict.  Remember you are guilty until proven otherwise.



	


You are doing it their way. They wrote the regs and you are adhering to 

them. You just aren't doing it the made-up way that some bonehead came 

up with on-the-fly at your local FSDO when you happened to call on the 

phone. Big difference.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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